Ban on Carolina Kostner Over

[Skater Boy]

According to the Attorney general, "there's not enough proof that Kostner knew about Schwazer's doping".
It's a matter of sports justice, not regular justice.
Source: http://www.corriere.it/sport/14_dic...ia-a94f8a58-7d16-11e4-878f-3e2fb7c8ce61.shtml (in Italian)

Okay so what I am piecing together is that we are talking some kind of sport infraction and not criminal.

I guess the next issue is what jurisdiction does the alleged offence occur in and does it cover or govern a figure skater in this case Kostner. For example an outsider helping a person avoid a drug test there is probably no jurisdiction to do anything to the now copetitive athelte. If it is covered by IOC rules then yep, Carolina would be under that umbrella but if it were say under racewalking only then it probably wouldnt' since CArolina is not a racewalker. It appears from what people are saying there uust be some jurisdiction to govern Kostner with the assistance she gave to her ex boyfriend. Has there been any suggestion they are thinking of stripping her of medals? Including the OBM? I remember how hard it was to correct a scoring error in synchro swimming when the Canadian beat the American. I also remember once ina debate tournament where the scores suggested I was like third to last and my partner was dead last yet the judges were telling us we were the best team they had seen at the competition - it turns out they missed one who round of scores for us. MOnths later after our coach asked to verify the scores and the error was found it was hard to rectify and though we did win gold eventually the victory was not sweet or celebrated. I suppose if the jurisdiction covers Kostner then I am okay with whatever punishment but it shold fit the crime too and her level of culpability - based on what they can prove and not what they suspect.

 

[Skater Boy]

While I don't dispute that Tonya was in a bad situation that affected her psychologically, I see at least two significant differences between the two cases

1) Carolina was not in on any plot. She says she did not know that her boyfriend was doping, and only found out that he was when he got a positive drug test. So she did not cover up for his doping use. She simply covered for him not being where he was supposed to be. He had said he would be in Racine, but then was at Carolina's place. When the WADA agents came looking for him, she covered for his lie, and then told him to go to Racine and get tested there. By the time she knew he was doping, WADA also knew, so there was no reason for her to go report him. Now, you could argue that she was stupid not to pick up on some of the clues, but sometimes love is blind and people only see their partners through rose-colored glasses.

2) She did not in any way benefit from his actions or her lie. In Tonya's case, she became national champion as a result of the attack. Upon finding out, she should have at reported it and acknowledged that her title was fraudulently obtained, even if she herself hadn't been part of the plot. And the plot had been orchestrated to give her a better chance at Olympic gold by keeping Nancy out of the Olympics altogether. In essence, there was cheating going on to give her a better chance of winning. In Carolina's case, there was no benefit to her. She did not gain a higher position or win a title that she might not have on otherwise. There was no cheating with respect to her skating.

To me, those are very significant differences. Also, as others have said, while Gilooly et al committed a crime, there was no criminal behavior here, and thus Carolina did not cover up a crime. That said, I do think Tonya was judged harshly, largely because she was somewhat of an outsider in the FS world and did not fit the princess mold. She was too rough around the edges. But I can understand why other skaters and the Fed would be extra leery of someone linked to an act of violence against a competitor, and I suspect that factored into the decision as well. I doubt that any skaters are afraid of Carolina because she lied about her boyfriend's whereabouts.

maybe we should keep Harding out of this one though I can see your point there are some issues of course about domestic violence as well the so called fraudulent win by Harding had nothing to do with Harding's actions the whack on the knee was GIlooly and friends. Did Tanya know of the plan well like Carolina we just don't know. But really I still think the punishment should fit the crime that can be proved.

 

[Mathman]

I guess the next issue is what jurisdiction does the alleged offence occur in and does it cover or govern a figure skater in this case Kostner.

My understanding is that the investigation is being conducted by the drug testing arm of the Italian Olympic Committe. As a national Olympic committee they are obliged to enforce the international standards if the IOC. Both the Italian racewalking organization and the Italian figure federation must go along with the Italian Olympic committee, and athletes competing in events sponsored by these federations agree to follow the Olympic doping rules or face penalties and sanctions.

About Tonya Harding, I didn't know about the $180,000 fine she was supposed to pay. I doubt that she payed a thin dime or that the USFSA has any legal power to collect. I also doubt that Tonya has $180,000.

 

[peg]

maybe we should keep Harding out of this one

I was simply replying to the poster who argued that this proposed ban was nothing compared to Tonya's punishment, and pointed out that there are significant differences between the two cases.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

And now for what will be the MOST CONTROVERSIAL and UNPOPULAR post in this thread: Why is it that Kostner shouldn't receive a harsh sentence for interfering in a doping test on her boyfriend, yet Tonya Harding was stripped of her national title and banned from figure skating for life when her crime was not going to the FBI as soon as she found out what Jeff Gihooly planned and did to Nancy Kerrigan AFTER THE FACT. I believe Tonya. If you read anything about her, particularly "The Tonya Tapes", her answers are consistent and mirror what most abused women say about the men that abused them and the post traumatic stress disorder they suffer. Fire away...

Had the USFSA believed this to be the case, I think she would not have had a lifetime ban. However, there was some evidence that she knew before. For me, this was worse than doping because the safety of other competitors is affected and a lifetime ban is a good way to discourage this type of behavior. I don't doubt that Tonya had marriage issues but she benefitted far more than anyone else involved with Nancy out.

 

[Amei]

I was simply replying to the poster who argued that this proposed ban was nothing compared to Tonya's punishment, and pointed out that there are significant differences between the two cases.

High level the difference between the 2 cases and why Harding's case should be the harshest (regardless of whether she knew or when she knew)

Harding's case ---- someone was physically attacked

Kostner's case ---- no one was physically harmed from her actions or the actions she concealed

 

[cruzceleste]

Just adding this that was published today. I think somebody said that meeting with Ferrari was prohibed by CONI, this seem to confirm it:

The 61-year-old Italian from Ferrara is banned globally after being found guilty of doping cyclists over the past two decades. The U.S. Anti-Doping Agency’s (USADA) 2012 investigation into Lance Armstrong resulted in a lifetime ban for Ferrari. Its Reasoned Decision showed that he helped with EPO, blood transfusions, and other prohibited drugs and methods from 1999-2007.

In Italy, simply talking to or visiting Ferrari can result in a suspension. CONI, the country’s Olympic committee, has banned him from working with UCI-licensed cyclists since February 13, 2002.

Not only Armstrong, but Filippo Pozzato (Lampre-Merida), Roman Kreuziger (Tinkoff-Saxo), and others have visited the man known as “Dr. Evil.” Nibali’s Astana teammate Michele Scarponi served a three-month ban for meeting with Ferrari in 2010.


Read more at http://velonews.competitor.com/2014...ana-riders-in-2013_355283#VWpuZkhId1I6KjtM.99

 

[Icey]

That makes it difficult to believe, as some have suggested, that Kostner didn't know who Ferrari was.

 

[cruzceleste]

That makes it difficult to believe, as some have suggested, that Kostner didn't know who Ferrari was.

The think I find really hard to believe that Carolina didn´t even ask who were they meeting.

Is like getting in to the car and have the following conversation:

Carolina: So where are we going?
BF: We are meeting a doctor?
Carolina: what doctor?
BF: Ferrari
Carolina:what a coincidence...he has the same name as the doctor that is all over the news for helping ciclist,tennis and footballers all over the world to dopping?
BF:...
Carolina: Isn´t it weird that he is meeting you on a motorhome?
BF:...

I mean, you will have to believe that Carolina is really ... I don´t even know what to call her...

 

[Buttercup]

The think I find really hard to believe that Carolina didn´t even ask who were they meeting.

Here's an alternate version:

Carolina: So where are we going?
BF: We are meeting a doctor?

Schwazer: I have a quick meeting on the way home, it won't take much time.

But let's assume he said it was a doctor.

Carolina: what doctor?
BF: Ferrari

Schwazer: A specialist in nutrition/sports exercise/sports injuries/whatever.

But let's say he told her the name.

Carolina:what a coincidence...he has the same name as the doctor that is all over the news for helping ciclist,tennis and footballers all over the world to dopping?

Kostner: Doesn't ring a bell. Has he been working with the track and field guys?

Why would she know who Ferrari is? Is she a cycling fan? Does she follow football (I don't believe that's what Ferrari is known for anyway). She lived in Germany since 2001, when she was 14. She has always been focused on figure skating, a sport in which doping means taking the wrong over the counter medicine and nobody consults with doping doctors.

Carolina: Isn´t it weird that he is meeting you on a motorhome?

Schwazer: saves time this way, and he works with people all over the country so it's more convenient for him to have a mobile office.

I mean, you will have to believe that Carolina is really ... I don´t even know what to call her...

Focused on her own training. Trusting of a guy who didn't deserve her trust.

Tomas Verner, who has trained alongside Kostner since they were both teenagers, had this to say in signing the Change.org petition:

I sign because I know Carolina for more then 12 years as her training partner and I have never met a better athlete and great human being in one person. Carolina is a pure soul of whom we need more, not less in elite sport. The entire INTERNATIONAL OLYMPIC COMMITTEE should proudly stand by Carolina's side, because she is Olympic spirit in persona. Carolina Always fought fair and always respected her competition no matter how hard she had to work for her goals. There is simply no reason whatsoever to punish Carolina for her ex boyfriend actions.

Moving on...

Just adding this that was published today. I think somebody said that meeting with Ferrari was prohibed by CONI, this seem to confirm it:
...

Not only Armstrong, but Filippo Pozzato (Lampre-Merida), Roman Kreuziger (Tinkoff-Saxo), and others have visited the man known as “Dr. Evil.” Nibali’s Astana teammate Michele Scarponi served a three-month ban for meeting with Ferrari in 2010.

See, even if one believes that doping is very bad, this is so over the top that it's somewhere between ridiculous (memories of Austin Powers...) and offensive. Dr. Evil? Ferrari helped athletes dope, he's not exactly the second coming of Josef Mengele.

Seriously, sometimes I wonder if the more extreme anti-doping people realize that there are worse things in the world than someone taking EPO.

 

[R.D.]

Seriously, sometimes I wonder if the more extreme anti-doping people realize that there are worse things in the world than someone taking EPO.

Well of course there are, but you have to remain in the context of sport. Moreso, the jurisdiction of the anti-doping agency...

The way I see it is doping = cheating. And no one likes a cheater in any walk of life...

 

[Buttercup]

Well of course there are, but you have to remain in the context of sport. Moreso, the jurisdiction of the anti-doping agency...

The way I see it is doping = cheating. And no one likes a cheater in any walk of life...

When countries criminalize doping, they're taking it out of the context of sport. When a doctor is referred to as "evil" for his doping activities, that's blowing doping out of proportion.

And even if we do focus on sports, there can be worse things in sports than people using EPO (trigger warning for the first link).

 

[cruzceleste]

Kostner: Doesn't ring a bell. Has he been working with the track and field guys?

Why would she know who Ferrari is? Is she a cycling fan? Does she follow football (I don't believe that's what Ferrari is known for anyway). She lived in Germany since 2001, when she was 14. She has always been focused on figure skating, a sport in which doping means taking the wrong over the counter medicine and nobody consults with doping doctors.

Believe me in no way I am a cycling fan, but even I know who Ferrari is, he is connected with dopping in soccer, tennis, cycling, people believe that even Spanish National Soccer team was involve with him during Germany Worlds Cup (so living in Germany is not excuse)... is just you need to believe that Carolina lived under a rock with out access to Internet or newspaper not to know... and even so that your boyfriend doesn´t tell you the name of the doctor that´s is citing across you and you didn´t ask... is event like insulting Carolina´s intelligence... does people believe she is stupid? (don´t know how else put it)

Back in 2012 he was all over the news, and Carolina never saw it? I live in the other side of the world, in a third world country and I know about this and Carolina didn´t?

I don´t think that Carolina deserves 4 1/2 years, but to get to the point where people believe she is not at fault, is just too much.

 

[Mathman]

I sign because I know Carolina for more then 12 years as her training partner and I have never met a better athlete and great human being in one person. Carolina is a pure soul of whom we need more, not less in elite sport. The entire INTERNATIONAL OLYMPIC COMMITTEE should proudly stand by Carolina's side, because she is Olympic spirit in persona. Carolina Always fought fair and always respected her competition no matter how hard she had to work for her goals. There is simply no reason whatsoever to punish Carolina for her ex boyfriend actions.

 

[Buttercup]

Believe me in no way I am a cycling fan, but even I know who Ferrari is, he is connected with dopping in soccer, tennis, cycling, people believe that even Spanish National Soccer team was involve with him during Germany Worlds Cup (so living in Germany is not excuse)... is just you need to believe that Carolina lived under a rock with out access to Internet or newspaper not to know... and even so that your boyfriend doesn´t tell you the name of the doctor that´s is citing across you and you didn´t ask... is event like insulting Carolina´s intelligence... does people believe she is stupid? (don´t know how else put it)

Back in 2012 he was all over the news, and Carolina never sow it? I live in the other side of the world, in a third world country and I know about this and Carolina didn´t?

I don´t think that Carolina deserves 4 1/2 years, but to get to the point where people believe she is not at fault, is just too much.

He was all over the news in the summer of 2012, around the time Schwazer tested positive. And the meeting itself was in 2010, was Kostner supposed to be affected by news coverage that hadn't happened yet? Her lawyer commented about that meeting back in September: "That was an entirely sporadic instance," Fontana said. "She saw him only once and she didn't even know his name was Dr. Michele Ferrari. She thought he was a physical trainer because they talked about training data and stuff like that."

Make of that what you will.

I'm not sure if you are referring to Germany's world cup win (well after Schwazer's test) or 2006 when Germany hosted it (Kostner may have had other things on her mind that year, like, you know, trying to come back from her horrible Olympic performance). I don't know who thinks he's linked to doping among Spanish footballers, but a brief search brought up no news coverage of such a thing. Ferrari's Wikipedia entry does not refer to other sports, and while Wikipedia is by no means an exhaustive source, I think it's pretty well established that his claim to infamy is his long-standing involvement in doping in cycling, and according to the link you posted earlier, CONI only had an explicit directive against UCI cyclists from meeting with him. Anyway, why is it so hard to believe that a skater would not follow the latest doping news from other sports? Kostner comes from a winter sports region and family and I would imagine that if she follows sports beyond skating, that's her main interest.

I have internet access and don't live under a rock, and there are still plenty of things that I don't follow or know much about.

Kostner has said that she stayed out of Schwazer's career and he stayed out of hers. I find it perfectly reasonable for her not to question him about his meetings and activities. They were in a relationship, which implies trust; it's not her fault that he abused it. The only thing she is at fault for is lying to inspectors once, and not about actual doping practices. Why people are trying to make it as though she was a doping enabler is beyond me.

People who know Kostner well - her fellow skaters, including those who have competed against her for years and who trained with her - have been pretty clear that they believe her and consider her a person with integrity. I'll go with their judgment barring compelling evidence to the contrary.

 

[SoundtracksOnIce]

One thing that bugs me about punishing Carolina is this has nothing to do with her actions as a figure skater. I don't think it's fair or relevant to suspend a skater from competing or strip them of a title when the offense isn't related to skating.

It would be like if Evan Lysacek for example (just taking a random recently retired skater) were arrested for murdering his girlfriend. It would make him a horrible role model for sure and he should go to jail. But he shouldn't lose his Olympic medals because that had nothing to do with his performance or who he is as a skater.

 

[R.D.]

People who know Kostner well - her fellow skaters, including those who have competed against her for years and who trained with her - have been pretty clear that they believe her and consider her a person with integrity.

But it seems to be that this is common - even among folks accused of sex abuse, murder, etc...I've seen people close to them defending them and their honor. Not saying Kostner ISN'T who her friends claim she is, but I'd always be aware of that potential conflict of interest, the natural human inclination to not believe your good friend is capable of doing X.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

But it seems to be that this is common - even among folks accused of sex abuse, murder, etc...I've seen people close to them defending them and their honor. Not saying Kostner ISN'T who her friends claim she is, but I'd always be aware of that potential conflict of interest, the natural human inclination to not believe your good friend is capable of doing X.

I wonder if her supporters are implying that she didn't do it, or that she shouldn't be punished harshly even though she did do it. As RD said, "good" people can make bad decisions so I don't think being a nice person should have any impact on punishment. However, I'm also against giving her a harsher penalty merely because she is a more prominent athlete than the guy who actually took PEDs.

 

[Buttercup]

But it seems to be that this is common - even among folks accused of sex abuse, murder, etc...I've seen people close to them defending them and their honor. Not saying Kostner ISN'T who her friends claim she is, but I'd always be aware of that potential conflict of interest, the natural human inclination to not believe your good friend is capable of doing X.

The "people do this even for murderers" thing has been used already. The case against Carolina has nothing to do with serious crime and everything to do with honesty and integrity, making such comments relevant. Prosecutors have implied that Kostner should have known more or that she lied during the investigation. Skaters have commented to suggest that this is unlikely and to provide an alternative explanation.

 

[gammarae]

Good for you Tomas Verner!