Mao Asada | Page 38 | Golden Skate

Mao Asada

Minze2001 said:
https://twitter.com/yukisnyc/status/546741711196549120

Cool picture of how famous Mao is
Click to expand...

Thanks for the photos Minze2001 and for the information about the broadcast ioanap. Judging from the scene on the street, it looks like Mao really is the female face of Japan. Here are some photos from Christmas on Ice. I am so glad to see that Mao is doing her Biellmann again. It's so beautiful. I hope it doesn't still hurt her back. I am curious if anyone knows. How old are skaters usually when they stop doing their Biellmann? Since most skaters that have ever done one, except Denise Bielllmann, are still young maybe it's hard to tell. Can Irina Slutskaya, Shizuka Arakawa and Sasha Cohen still do one? I wouldn't think that Denise Biellmann can anymore.

http://www.sanspo.com/sports/photos/20141221/fgr14122115440002-p5.html
 
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yuki said:
Denise Biellmann performed a one-handed Biellmann spin at the 2011 European Championships Gala : https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=vyOAtjNaKQQ#t=210 (she was 48 years old here, I think)
Click to expand...

Thanks a lot for the video link. Incredible that Denise is in such great condition to still do that spin after so many years, even decades. Isn't this a half Biellmann? Even so, it is a fantastic one with great speed.

Here are some beautiful photos of Mao and friends from Christmas on Ice.

http://postimg.org/image/9pm9e7hfn/

http://postimg.org/image/vg3jgm6tj/

http://postimg.org/image/xq6jlcqnz/

http://postimg.org/image/h0nx6eyp9/

http://postimg.org/image/yv2e8gbmd/

http://postimg.org/image/hkjiovej9/
 
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Nice to see that Mao Asada's fan thread has not been forgotten.
Since it's Christmas, I started thinking about Mao's Christmas gift to the world from 4 years ago, her 2010 Nationals SP: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huKegY7tU5I
I still remember dreaming she would not be a mess and somehow, it happened in real life. :laugh: Her 2010 Nationals LP I'll remember for being the last time she ever did that beautiful fan spiral in a FS for more than 2 seconds.

And in light of the recent GPF we should also take a moment to remember what the top GPF SP was a year ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXXq8zoTk3E
Oh Mao, how I miss you. This year's winner is certainly no substitute. Even if she someday adds the 3A.
And a refresher for the even better version of Nocturne at Worlds: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sY7vEaX21aQ
 
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Thank you for the links carnasada. I really miss those fan spirals as well. Of course, Mao is a precious but also tough and resilient treasure the likes of which I will never see again.

I have always wanted to know what people think of one of the greatest injustices Mao ever had to face, in my opinion. When Mao was setting up for her second triple axel in the 2009 LP at Worlds, some jerk yelled really loud. It is so loud that you can hear it over the music which is very loud. She fell afterwards and got a ur call as well, and never got any recourse to justice which I feel she deserved. I don't think of this as a fall but as a clear case of interference. Instead, Mao is regarded as a "failure" for not medalling, even though she landed 1 of the 2 triple axels and noone else even tried to do 1 triple axel, with or without interference. Mao had already landed 2 triple axels when she won the Grand Prix Final in 2008. Also, I noticed that she was criticized for her lack of artistry or feeling in this performance. Well I must be from a different planet because I like her artistry and presentation the best in this LP. What do you think of this interference / heckling?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOGNh5gAvXU
 
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I decided to put the long list of Mao's HD videos here:

Here are the HD videos:

Mao's FS Sochi in HD full screen: http://vimeo.com/87275728

or Mao's FS Sochi along with the final group of skaters:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5fA9o2sBis

Mao's FS and all other skaters from broadcasts all over the world:
http://skating.livedoor.biz/archives/51877523.html

Mystery Hunter:
http://www.dailymotion.com/embed/vid...t=&background=

Here is a really nice HD copy of Mao's Bells of Moscow LP at 4CC''s in 2010.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8oV9_LrTzo

2005 Junior Worlds LP
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbPbbUeQ3Kw

Nutcracker 2005 Grand Prix Final:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oc1jxgLD6o

Hard for me to find, since I don't speak Japanese:

Here is also the only HD copy I have been able to find of Bells of Moscow at Worlds 2010. The video also has Rach 2 from the Grand Prix Final I believe.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCwCo3GID2E

Finally, This is Mao's National Performance of Bells of Moscow LP in HD from 2009.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0B4u4VzA2Pc

Waltz Masquerade 2010
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_2lfhzQ81w

This the best copy of Mao's Nocturne 2014 I could find:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2xjUQWPsPY

Great copy of Mao's Nocturne from 2006 Grand Prix Final
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krPGuZWNGHY

Ballade Astana. 2014. Love the lighting, the twizzles and the Russian split jump.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzz7HRKDUeU

Here is the best copy of Mao's 2014 Worlds LP I can find:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gw3ZBgPSlY

Smile and encore Worlds 2014 HD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wz0reO4YuBg

Here is an HD copy of Czardas from 2007 Worlds
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yiQwm_VtrU

Here is an HD copy of Mao's Performance of Fantasie Impromptu at 4CC's 2008:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cp5aoeVYcHg

2008 SP Worlds HD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMtJ_0yTKtc

2009 Worlds LP with the screaming spectator just before Mao's 2nd triple axel. So incredibly unjust!!! Can Mao get justice for this after all these years?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOGNh5gAvXU

Here is her interview after the performance at the Grand Prix Final 2007 (I wish I understood what she was saying) :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlVUvUkxuJE

Here is an HD copy of Fantasie Impromptu at Worlds 2008:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAC6TRBmhhg

Mao Asada 2009 World Team Trophy FS Masquerade Waltz
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NOYcDpV1S8

Here is an HD copy of Liebestraum from 4CC's 2011 :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXCswqtVhrc


Liebestraum 2011 4CC's- another HD copy Mao might have had some big difficulties in 2010-2012, but her performances in 4CC's both in 2011 and even 2012 are divine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_fHcE4uFg4


Liebestraum 2012 4CC's
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrjQuotgPqU


Here is an HD version of "I Got Rhythm" at 4CCs 2013. Love this so much!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7jd3gn82Vc


Worlds 2013 LP HD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjnChWXVteA

Another great Short Claire de Lune World Team Trophy SP in HD
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=327n8Gue9Ic


So Deep is the Night
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2L8TshBMD9I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZJUgH6Mjv8


Caprice

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41mdvXnGiSE


Por Una Cabeza

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97iu9hl9MX8
 
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Thank you gotoschool! Rewatching Mao's videos do make me miss her a lot, especially amidst the Russian dominance this season.
 
gotoschool said:
Thank you for the links carnasada. I really miss those fan spirals as well. Of course, Mao is a precious but also tough and resilient treasure the likes of which I will never see again.
Click to expand...
The more one considers, the more remarkable Mao becomes. Overall, she ranged from very strong to top of the field in things such as spins, skating skills, musicality, etc. But really sets Mao apart (in my mind) is how outstanding she was in three categories in particular: her ability to land the 3A and the 3F-3Lo (two of the hardest jumping passes ever done by a lady, and far more risky/unique than any of the "difficult" passes this season), her beautiful spirals (unquestionably the class of the field, or of all time), and the most intricate footwork among all her competitors (rivaled only by Carolina). I would mention her choreography, musicality, and beauty of movement/general carriage as well, but these she learned over time. Also, current skaters actually have some hope to imitate her there. :laugh: In the former three she's inimitable (so far, at least; Cohen had the spiral positions but her skating skills were leagues behind).

This last year, we've seen plenty of Russians who are "strong" overall, but I haven't been truly impressed or interested because none of them have a standout feature besides Lipnitskaya's spins and maybe Tuktamysheva's jumps (she boasts very clean technique, but the content isn't as unique and there's too much in her general skating that bothers me). Mao had three standout elements (not to mention strong everything-else) and there was nothing glaring in her skating that irked me (while every Russian lady at Nationals this year had at least two things I found bothersome). The reason Yulia has become my favorite among the Russian seniors is that she stands out in her spins, she shows at least some flashes of musicality, and her flaws are the least annoying to me.

gotoschool said:
I have always wanted to know what people think of one of the greatest injustices Mao ever had to face, in my opinion. When Mao was setting up for her second triple axel in the 2009 LP at Worlds, some jerk yelled really loud. It is so loud that you can hear it over the music which is very loud. She fell afterwards and got a ur call as well, and never got any recourse to justice which I feel she deserved. I don't think of this as a fall but as a clear case of interference. Instead, Mao is regarded as a "failure" for not medalling, even though she landed 1 of the 2 triple axels and noone else even tried to do 1 triple axel, with or without interference. Mao had already landed 2 triple axels when she won the Grand Prix Final in 2008. Also, I noticed that she was criticized for her lack of artistry or feeling in this performance. Well I must be from a different planet because I like her artistry and presentation the best in this LP. What do you think of this interference / heckling?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOGNh5gAvXU
Click to expand...
In tennis we call that sort of thing a hindrance. It's a bit rarer in skating so they never set up any recourse to this kind of distraction, which makes it a rough deal for Mao if that's what caused her to miss the 3A. That said, we don't actually know if Mao heard what the idiot was yelling, and I don't like finding "excuses" like that - injury, personal issues, etc. are cut-and-dried, while this doesn't seem quite the same. As for criticism over lack of feeling, the LA crowd was noticeably subdued during her step sequence for who knows what reason. I do consider Masquerade one of her most underrated LPs -- I'd rank it above Liebestraum post-2011 4CC, Swan Lake, and maybe Fantasie-Impromptu and Csardas -- but the program kinda lived or died with the jumps, and she had that fall in LA. Compare to the three times Mao skated Masquerade in front of a home crowd, where she seemed a bit more engaged, she hit both 3Axels and both flips, and the crowd never failed to start clapping along during her step sequence.
 
gotoschool said:
I decided to put the long list of Mao's HD videos here:

Here are the HD videos:

Mao's FS Sochi in HD full screen: http://vimeo.com/87275728

or Mao's FS Sochi along with the final group of skaters:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5fA9o2sBis

Mao's FS and all other skaters from broadcasts all over the world:
http://skating.livedoor.biz/archives/51877523.html

Mystery Hunter:
http://www.dailymotion.com/embed/vid...t=&background=

Here is a really nice HD copy of Mao's Bells of Moscow LP at 4CC''s in 2010.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8oV9_LrTzo

2005 Junior Worlds LP
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbPbbUeQ3Kw

Nutcracker 2005 Grand Prix Final:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oc1jxgLD6o

Hard for me to find, since I don't speak Japanese:

Here is also the only HD copy I have been able to find of Bells of Moscow at Worlds 2010. The video also has Rach 2 from the Grand Prix Final I believe.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCwCo3GID2E

Finally, This is Mao's National Performance of Bells of Moscow LP in HD from 2009.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0B4u4VzA2Pc

Waltz Masquerade 2010
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_2lfhzQ81w

This the best copy of Mao's Nocturne 2014 I could find:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2xjUQWPsPY

Great copy of Mao's Nocturne from 2006 Grand Prix Final
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krPGuZWNGHY

Ballade Astana. 2014. Love the lighting, the twizzles and the Russian split jump.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzz7HRKDUeU

Here is the best copy of Mao's 2014 Worlds LP I can find:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gw3ZBgPSlY

Smile and encore Worlds 2014 HD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wz0reO4YuBg

Here is an HD copy of Czardas from 2007 Worlds
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yiQwm_VtrU

Here is an HD copy of Mao's Performance of Fantasie Impromptu at 4CC's 2008:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cp5aoeVYcHg

2008 SP Worlds HD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMtJ_0yTKtc

2009 Worlds LP with the screaming spectator just before Mao's 2nd triple axel. So incredibly unjust!!! Can Mao get justice for this after all these years?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOGNh5gAvXU

Here is her interview after the performance at the Grand Prix Final 2007 (I wish I understood what she was saying) :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlVUvUkxuJE

Here is an HD copy of Fantasie Impromptu at Worlds 2008:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAC6TRBmhhg

Mao Asada 2009 World Team Trophy FS Masquerade Waltz
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NOYcDpV1S8

Here is an HD copy of Liebestraum from 4CC's 2011 :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXCswqtVhrc


Liebestraum 2011 4CC's- another HD copy Mao might have had some big difficulties in 2010-2012, but her performances in 4CC's both in 2011 and even 2012 are divine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_fHcE4uFg4


Liebestraum 2012 4CC's
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrjQuotgPqU


Here is an HD version of "I Got Rhythm" at 4CCs 2013. Love this so much!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7jd3gn82Vc


Worlds 2013 LP HD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjnChWXVteA

Another great Short Claire de Lune World Team Trophy SP in HD
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=327n8Gue9Ic


So Deep is the Night
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2L8TshBMD9I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZJUgH6Mjv8


Caprice

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41mdvXnGiSE


Por Una Cabeza

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97iu9hl9MX8
Click to expand...

Thank you
 
Thank you for the great post, gotoschool.


CarneAsada said:
The more one considers, the more remarkable Mao becomes. Overall, she ranged from very strong to top of the field in things such as spins, skating skills, musicality, etc. But really sets Mao apart (in my mind) is how outstanding she was in three categories in particular: her ability to land the 3A and the 3F-3Lo (two of the hardest jumping passes ever done by a lady, and far more risky/unique than any of the "difficult" passes this season), her beautiful spirals (unquestionably the class of the field, or of all time), and the most intricate footwork among all her competitors (rivaled only by Carolina). I would mention her choreography, musicality, and beauty of movement/general carriage as well, but these she learned over time. Also, current skaters actually have some hope to imitate her there. :laugh: In the former three she's inimitable (so far, at least; Cohen had the spiral positions but her skating skills were leagues behind).
Click to expand...

Your great statement reminded me of that young Yuzuru’s very honest opinion about Mao.
He said that when he was 16 or 17.

“Mao-chan makes (every element) look too easy, so that looks so easy to do. But in fact those are really reeeally difficult!!
That is an excellent thing to see that the movement of her upper body looks like smoothly connected with her stpsq!”

It's cute that we are able to see that for a while sometimes Yuzuru was very fanboy-ing on Mao haha…;)

CarneAsada said:
The reason Yulia has become my favorite among the Russian seniors is that she stands out in her spins, she shows at least some flashes of musicality, and her flaws are the least annoying to me.
Click to expand...

Yes, I am such a fangirl on her spins :)
 
Your welcome yhmafan, leolion, plushyfan and Minze2001. Mao certainly has a lot of good videos in great quality to choose from. I agree with you carneasada, I would have to call top class of all time on the spirals, step sequences and one handed Biellmann, most landed triple axels as well, the list goes on, nice detailed post. But, I disagree on the Worlds heckler. It's interference to me. Great that Hanyu got inspired by Mao's step sequences.

I would like to know, do most of you think it was better for Mao to set about the task of reworking her jumps? If so, when did you realize it was the right thing to do? Personally, I didn't really think so until her final year, but that's because I liked Bells of Moscow and Waltz Masquerade so much and because I didn't watch her skate for a couple of years (when she performed Liebestraum which I saw for the first time after Sochi). I know the triple salchow and the triple flip and loop came back, but the triple axel took quite a hit for a while. To me her greatest improvement was in her skating skills, speed, edges and through this her step sequences and twizzles and even deeper, richer expression and better balletic flow in her jumps, despite a slight loss of flexibility in her stellar Biellmann, sit extension and I spins, which was inevitable as she acquired a slightly fuller but still slim figure.

But, what would have happened if she hadn't undertaken her revamp? She definitely reached her widest audience her last season, but how did she ever have the patience to stick to it that long? When I think of Mao, I realize how there is just way too much stress put on the Olympics and in scoring in general in figure skating. But in the end, she will walk away with one of the most legendary of all performances, in my view the most legendary, as this video of Sochi shows with almost 1.5 million hits.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kGe6Sulrak

Here are a couple more.

Jupiter 2012 Japan Super Challenge Ex
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmddpKdwiY4

Tango
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZRm2XdTdVkI

Hanbanera SP
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoANBKr-PdY
 
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gotoschool said:
Your welcome yhmafan, leolion, plushyfan and Minze2001. Mao certainly has a lot of good videos in great quality to choose from. I agree with you carneasada, I would have to call top class of all time on the spirals, step sequences and one handed Biellmann, most landed triple axels as well, the list goes on, nice detailed post. But, I disagree on the Worlds heckler. It's interference to me. Great that Hanyu got inspired by Mao's step sequences.

I would like to know, do most of you think it was better for Mao to set about the task of reworking her jumps? If so, when did you realize it was the right thing to do? Personally, I didn't really think so until her final year, but that's because I liked Bells of Moscow and Waltz Masquerade so much and because I didn't watch her skate for a couple of years (when she performed Liebestraum which I saw for the first time after Sochi). I know the triple salchow and the triple flip and loop came back, but the triple axel took quite a hit for a while. To me her greatest improvement was in her skating skills, speed, edges and through this her step sequences and twizzles and even deeper, richer expression and better balletic flow in her jumps, despite a slight loss of flexibility in her stellar Biellmann, sit extension and I spins, which was inevitable as she acquired a slightly fuller but still slim figure.

But, what would have happened if she hadn't undertaken her revamp? She definitely reached her widest audience her last season, but how did she ever have the patience to stick to it that long? When I think of Mao, I realize how there is just way too much stress put on the Olympics and in scoring in general in figure skating. But in the end, she will walk away with one of the most legendary of all performances, in my view the most legendary, as this video of Sochi shows with almost 1.5 million hits.
Click to expand...
Thanks again for the links, gotoschool. This has been done to death already but my view is that Mao's jumps in 2010 had nowhere to go but down. Moreover, if you look at her Olympic and World skates, her spins were getting a bit slower and her skating in general looked a bit labored compared to 2007 or 2014. But back to jumps. Her 3-3 started having rotation issues in 2008-09. I would have given credit for the 3-3 in her 2008 GPF SP but all the ones she did that season were near-underrotated and they were nowhere near her 2006 3F-3Lo combos in quality. Her flip itself declined to the point that she had to tweak it with Nagakubo before 2009 Nationals. She got it back to land 10 out of 12 triple flip attempts in the next 4 competitions, but the way she was doing it, she'd never have been able to tack a 3Loop on there again. Her 3A was at its peak in 2008-2010 consistency-wise but they weren't getting GOE because of the wobbly landing edge and poor distance/flow out. Her 3Axel in 2013 and 2014 was less consistent, but it had a solid running edge out and both height and distance. Her solo 3Loop didn't really need changes, but she was also trying to get a 3Lo-3Lo for 2010-11, so I understand why she would make changes there. The solo 3Toe was gone forever from her programs though she had to change her 2A to accommodate a 2A-3T. Her Salchow and Lutz obviously needed work as she neglected them for the 2009-10 season. In 2010-11 she initially was doing her old telegraphed Lutz where she'd peek back then flutz, then she worked on it so that it was more like her 2008-09 Lutz which would only get ! (this got worse later though).

I knew it would take time to rework her jumps, but I didn't realize how awful her GP outing would be in 2010. She actually pulled herself together somewhat by 2010 Nationals, a virtual miracle. By 2011 4CC I was already on board with her decision. A lot of improvements (in jumps, mainly) were already showing by then, but she had two major setbacks in the form of the 2011 earthquake, which interrupted her training and caused a change in the timing/location of Worlds, and her mother passing away. She lost her 3A for about 2 full years, but even during this time she was working on her speed and SS, getting back her 3-3 (landing it in shows and in practice in 2012), and improving her 2A-3T. It must have taken incredible patience and determination (and coaching, thank you Mr. Sato) to do all this reworking considering everything really only began to come together in 2013; take into account further improvements and getting over her nagging back pain and she only put out her best in 2014. Had she not done all this rebuilding, she would've maybe kept consistent 3Axel, 3Flip, 3Loop, 3Toe, and 2A, i.e. her Vancouver jumps, all very high but with little flow or distance so she couldn't up her BV through 3-3 or 2A-3 combinations or get the GOE she needed. She could have maybe added the 3Sal and 3Lutz but she wouldn't have had anywhere to put them in the LP (anywhere worth it at least). Going to Nagakubo in 2010 was possibly a mistake as Sato apparently disagreed with a bunch of his changes, but that's the only outright problem I see with her coaching choices post-Vancouver. Sato also made sure she improved her overall skating and the speed in her spins. In my opinion, changing her jumps was absolutely the right decision, and I only regret that she didn't have one more year to maintain and show herself at her 2014 peak.
 
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CarneAsada said:
Thanks again for the links, gotoschool. This has been done to death already but my view is that Mao's jumps in 2010 had nowhere to go but down. Moreover, if you look at her Olympic and World skates, her spins were getting a bit slower and her skating in general looked a bit labored compared to 2007 or 2014. But back to jumps. Her 3-3 started having rotation issues in 2008-09. I would have given credit for the 3-3 in her 2008 GPF SP but all the ones she did that season were near-underrotated and they were nowhere near her 2006 3F-3Lo combos in quality. Her flip itself declined to the point that she had to tweak it with Nagakubo before 2009 Nationals. She got it back to land 10 out of 12 triple flip attempts in the next 4 competitions, but the way she was doing it, she'd never have been able to tack a 3Loop on there again. Her 3A was at its peak in 2008-2010 consistency-wise but they weren't getting GOE because of the wobbly landing edge and poor distance/flow out. Her 3Axel in 2013 and 2014 was less consistent, but it had a solid running edge out and both height and distance. Her solo 3Loop didn't really need changes, but she was also trying to get a 3Lo-3Lo for 2010-11, so I understand why she would make changes there. The solo 3Toe was gone forever from her programs though she had to change her 2A to accommodate a 2A-3T. Her Salchow and Lutz obviously needed work as she neglected them for the 2009-10 season. In 2010-11 she initially was doing her old telegraphed Lutz where she'd peek back then flutz, then she worked on it so that it was more like her 2008-09 Lutz which would only get ! (this got worse later though).

I knew it would take time to rework her jumps, but I didn't realize how awful her GP outing would be in 2010. She actually pulled herself together somewhat by 2010 Nationals, a virtual miracle. By 2011 4CC I was already on board with her decision. A lot of improvements (in jumps, mainly) were already showing by then, but she had two major setbacks in the form of the 2011 earthquake, which interrupted her training and caused a change in the timing/location of Worlds, and her mother passing away. She lost her 3A for about 2 full years, but even during this time she was working on her speed and SS, getting back her 3-3 (landing it in shows and in practice in 2012), and improving her 2A-3T. It must have taken incredible patience and determination (and coaching, thank you Mr. Sato) to do all this reworking considering everything really only began to come together in 2013; take into account further improvements and getting over her nagging back pain and she only put out her best in 2014. Had she not done all this rebuilding, she would've maybe kept consistent 3Axel, 3Flip, 3Loop, 3Toe, and 2A, i.e. her Vancouver jumps, all very high but with little flow or distance so she couldn't up her BV through 3-3 or 2A-3 combinations or get the GOE she needed. She could have maybe added the 3Sal and 3Lutz but she wouldn't have had anywhere to put them in the LP (anywhere worth it at least). Going to Nagakubo in 2010 was possibly a mistake as Sato apparently disagreed with a bunch of his changes, but that's the only outright problem I see with her coaching choices post-Vancouver. Sato also made sure she improved her overall skating and the speed in her spins. In my opinion, changing her jumps was absolutely the right decision, and I only regret that she didn't have one more year to maintain and show herself at her 2014 peak.
Click to expand...

Good analysis @carneasada
 
I thought you would be interested in this post, from Yulia's fan fest topic. Just out of curiosity.
It's in relation to the post that CarneAsada translated from the russian forum FSO, regarding the height of jumps between different skaters on the ladies GPF FS topic.

I asked Vanishilar if he had done the same thing because I know he uses Matlab as well.
I took out Yulia's jumps, only, since you are not interested in that and left Adelina, Kim and Kostner, besides Mao of course, being the top 3 in Sochi and with big jumps.

Vanshilar said:
Anyway, for the jumps, there's nothing really mystical about it. Assuming we can ignore things like air friction and how extended the skater's legs are during takeoff, there's an easy relationship between the jump's height and how long the jump is in the air. The rest comes down to details, like how the person actually counts the number of frames. For me, I look at the first frame when the skater is in the air at the beginning of the jump and the first frame when the skater touches the ground at the end of the jump. This is because video capture is discrete; the actual time of takeoff is between the last frame when the skater is still on the ground and the first frame when the skater is in the air, and the same thing for the landing. Thus counting the number of frames in this way more closely approximates the actual time.

It seems like the Russian site does some sort of rounding to convert 30 FPS (frames per second) video into 25 FPS video for the calculations. I do not. Thus, my results will be more accurate (if it's 30 FPS, I directly calculate as 30 FPS). Additionally, the site doesn't account for how late in the program each skater did their jumps; one would expect that jumps later in the program would be lower than jumps earlier in the program. So I don't think it's valid to compare jumps of different skaters without taking this into account.

If you have video that on freeze frame shows horizontal banding, those are actually the most accurate type of video (other than 60 FPS video but those are rare because of how much space they take up) to measure jump height. Basically, the banding is because of interlacing; in my analysis it basically allows me to double the number of frames. So a 25 FPS interlaced video is like a 50 FPS video in terms of measurement. More FPS means better measurements.

Additionally, for jumps which they show on slow motion, I can sometimes make even more accurate measurements depending on how they do the slow motion. That's only for a few select jumps though (the ones where they have slow motion).

Anyway, I had started to do this, but never completed it. The main difficulty is that most of the videos are at 25 FPS or 30 FPS, and realistically, with such a slow frame rate, the jumps are usually within the error (which I consider to be +- 0.5 frames) of each other. What I mean is that if for skater A I counted 13 frames and for skater B I counted 14 frames, you can't really say that skater B jumped higher than skater A, because they're within the error of this measurement method. Now, if for skater C I counted 15 frames, then you can say skater C jumped higher than skater A, but not skater B. So I think it might be somewhat misleading to report the heights of their jumps without taking this error into account. As you might guess, many unscrupulous forum posters will happily ignore such measurement issues in order to try to support whatever their position might be, even if it's unfounded.

The process of measuring isn't that difficult, it's really just counting the number of frames in a video as you advance it frame by frame. The only difficult part sometimes is interpreting what you see, i.e. for a given frame, whether or not the skater had landed or not (or taken off or not).

Anyway, the measurements that I had made so far were (for a 25 FPS video) in the order they were executed in the program for Sochi FS:

Sotnikova:
3Lz (1/2) = 15 frames = 44 cm
3T (2/2) = 11 frames = 24 cm
3F = 15 frames = 44 cm
3Lo = 14 frames = 38 cm
2A (1/2) = 14 frames = 38 cm
3T (2/2) = 14 frames = 38 cm
3F (1/3) = 14 frames = 38 cm
2T (2/3) = 10 frames = 20 cm
2Lo (3/3) = 11 frames = 24 cm
3S = 13 frames = 33 cm
2A = 12 frames = 28 cm

Kim:
3Lz (1/2) = 15 frames = 44 cm
3T (2/2) = 13 frames = 33 cm
3F = 14 frames = 38 cm
3S (1/2) = 12 frames = 28 cm
2T (2/2) = 11 frames = 24 cm
3Lz = 15 frames = 44 cm
2A (1/3) = 13 frames = 33 cm
2T (2/3) = 11 frames = 24 cm
2Lo (3/3) = 8 frames = 13 cm
3S = 12 frames = 28 cm
2A = 13 frames = 33 cm

Asada:
3A = 17 frames = 57 cm
3F (1/2) = 14 frames = 38 cm
3Lo (2/2) = 12 frames = 28 cm
3Lz = 14 frames = 38 cm
2A (1/2) = 14 frames = 38 cm
3T (2/2) = 12 frames = 28 cm
3S = 13 frames = 33 cm
3F (1/3) = 14 frames = 38 cm
2Lo (2/3) = 9 frames = 16 cm
2Lo (3/3) = 9 frames = 16 cm
3Lo = 14 frames = 38 cm

Kostner:
3Lz = 15 frames = 44 cm
2A (1/2) = 12 frames = 28 cm
3T (2/2) = 12 frames = 28 cm
3F = 15 frames = 44 cm
3Lo = 13 frames = 33 cm
3T (1/2) = 13 frames = 33 cm
2T (2/2) = 9 frames = 16 cm
3S = 13 frames = 33 cm
3S (1/3) = 13 frames = 33 cm
2T (2/3) = 9 frames = 16 cm
2T (3/3) = 9 frames = 16 cm

Basically, you can see how even a one-frame difference leads to significantly different height measurements (~5 cm), so it's not particularly precise. (I'm in the process of making more precise measurements, but they take more work -- but that's why I haven't posted these numbers, since they're preliminary and subject to change. It's also possible that I mistyped some of these since I'm copying by hand.)

I think people who judge a skater's chances of doing a 3A based on comparing that skater's 2A with Asada's 2A isn't really doing a good comparison. Asada's 3A is significantly higher than any other skater's any other jump for ladies. Not only that, she rotates significantly faster in her 3A than she does in her 2A; I think I've mentioned elsewhere that Asada's 3A rotates even faster than Lipnitskaya's jumps. She really expends a lot of energy doing that jump. Basically, Asada "relaxes" significantly to do her 2A compared with her 3A.

Anyway, yeah I can do it for the men as well, in fact I can do it with any video where the frame rate is known (and as long as I can clearly see when the skate touches the ice). I generally focus on the ladies though because I'm more interested in them. It doesn't require any special skills, really, just the patience to sit down in front of the computer and count the number of frames. I think it's more accurate though (and hence more useful) if there is video that are (in order of usefulness):

1. 60 FPS (rare)
2. 25 FPS interlaced (means I can convert them into 50 FPS for measuring)
3. 30 FPS
4. 25 FPS (typical video)

But yeah, that's why I collect as many different videos as much as possible, to find which once I can do the most accurate analysis for different aspects. Hmm maybe I should make a separate thread about it. I was going to put jump height analysis along with my analysis of jump rotation (i.e. amount of pre-rotation and landing underrotation) but that's going to take a long time. Looking at jump height is much easier to do if people would be interested in it.
Click to expand...
 
Alba said:
I thought you would be interested in this post, from Yulia's fan fest topic. Just out of curiosity.
It's in relation to the post that CarneAsada translated from the russian forum FSO, regarding the height of jumps between different skaters on the ladies GPF FS topic.

I asked Vanishilar if he had done the same thing because I know he uses Matlab as well.
I took out Yulia's jumps, only, since you are not interested in that and left Adelina, Kim and Kostner, besides Mao of course, being the top 3 in Sochi and with big jumps.
Click to expand...

Makes me remember this video. Because of Mao's air-tight position but the height that her 3A can reach is just so amazing!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FK01mukJJe0
 
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