2015-16 SOV Tables for Singles and Pairs released

[hurrah]

It's true that the rule change will encourage 3toe3toe in ladies sp, but in the fp, skaters need to fill their jump passes in a way that maximizes their total base value, so 3toe3toe in the free is a poor cousin's combo. And I hope that choosing the 3toe3toe will reflect negatively on the pcs.

 

[Interspectator]

-These changes will alter scores, but not as much as you might expect.
A good jumper who has all the triples and a quad will still be able to rake in huge points.

Take Yuzu's 3A-3T for instance, even more points there. His 3A-Lo-3S, more points there.

I agree with more penalty on falls, I'm not sure about the lessened penalties for a UR.
But, all-in-all, not bad changes.

 

[ruffledgrouse]

Spins
-decreased the number of revolutions needed in the layback change of position to 2 (yay for Diva Wagner)
-a poor flying spin entry is now -1 to -3 GOE
-the -1 to -3 GOE reduction for "slow or travelling" is now "slow or reduction of speed" (Are there no deductions for travelling anymore? I can't imagine that )

Edit: Nope, wait. travelling has it's own thing -1 to -3 now

 

[alia jackson]

-These changes will alter scores, but not as much as you might expect. A good jumper who has all the triples and a quad will still be able to rake in huge points.

I believe so do not-so-good jumpers who always get high PCS can get big points too.....4T< BV (8.0), GOE (0) = 8.0


In the ladies I wonder whether Liza will continue doing the 3A or any further attempt by other ladies. Knowing Mao she will continue with 3A.

 

[apple123]

That's basically what I'm feeling. But more angry. It's like they want to give advatage to skaters who don't have quads at all and jump clean triples. I'ts gonna be discouraging for skaters to attempt quads since it's better to have UR quads than do full rotation and fall. Why additional -GOE for quads? Do they want less quads in competition? Future season looks less fun now... Sometimes I really rather don't know

Well, we saw it once in Vancouver, and we will see it again in Boston. Who will benefit the most from these rules?

 

[Blades of Passion]

It's gonna be discouraging for skaters to attempt quads since it's better to have UR quads than do full rotation and fall. Why additional -GOE for quads? Do they want less quads in competition? Future season looks less fun now... Sometimes I really rather don't know

This makes no sense whatsoever. How is it discouraging for skaters to attempt quads? Falling on a rotated quad still gets you more points than not having a quad. If you can't land your quad that is nobody's fault but your own. You failed. Failure should not be highly rewarded. Landing an underrotated quad cleanly shows more control than just throwing yourself into it and falling.

I believe not-so-good jumpers who always get high PCS can get big points too.....4T< BV (8.0), GOE (0) = 8.0

You can't just go out there and do an underrotated quad with 0 GOE. That's not how it works. If you underrotate a quad, it will often have some other problem on the landing and you will get -GOE. If someone does an underrotated Quad that gets 0 GOE (or even +GOE, although that is very uncommon in the current system) then the underrotation was not too bad and it was an essentially clean jump. The skater is still losing a LOT of points for the underrotation call, which may be a call that is disputed amongst people. The sport shouldn't be centered around the tech panel deciding the entire competition based upon the call a borderline jump receives.

Also, you have to realize that a 4T with +2 GOE is still worth 4.3 points more than a 4T< with 0 GOE. The person who does a great quad jump is still receiving a VERY substantial reward for it.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

This makes no sense whatsoever. How is it discouraging for skaters to attempt quads? Falling on a rotated quad still gets you more points than not having a quad. If you can't land your quad that is nobody's fault but your own. You failed. Failure should not be highly rewarded. Landing an underrotated quad cleanly shows more control than just throwing yourself into it and falling.

I agree with this. Actually, my first thought was that this will encourage more people to attempt more quads.

 

[LRK]

I believe so do not-so-good jumpers who always get high PCS can get big points too.....4T< BV (8.0), GOE (0) = 8.0


In the ladies I wonder whether Liza will continue doing the 3A or any further attempt by other ladies. Knowing Mao she will continue with 3A.

In a recent interview she said she wants to put two in the FP.

 

[CarneAsada]

3Toe+3Toe has now become the standard jump combination for the Ladies SP. It's barely worth the risk to do a harder combination and it will now be extremely rewarding for everyone to just put their axel jump in the first half of the program and a 3Toe+3Toe and solo Triple in the second half. A skater who does 3Lutz+3Toe and 3Flip in the first half of their SP is now only getting 1.63 points more than someone who does 3Toe+3Toe and 3Sal in the second half. Absolutely ridiculous.

The choice to increase BV of the 3Toe for women is truly baffling; plenty of top skaters were doing it already, no one ever needed extra encouragement to learn any 3-3Toe combination anyway. The 3Sal increase... 3-0.5Loop-3Sal combinations were becoming much more common already. I don't get it.

 

[TMC]

I agree with this. Actually, my first thought was that this will encourage more people to attempt more quads.

Mine too!

More skaters going for their currently iffy quads in competition under pressure will be great practice for them, helping them towards getting non-iffy quads in the future.

Also, if it discourages attempted 3-quad-programs... (Please don't shout at me I'm feeling vulnerable today) Watching multiple-quad SPs/LPs will go from being slightly exciting/quite terrifying/sadly disappointing or sort of satisfying to more exciting/less terrifying/more satisfying.

When I see a planned content sheet and there's a 4T 4T+3T 4S I personally won't enjoy watching as much, since the excitement of anticipating a quad is replaced by the fear of anticipating a painful fall.

Like 1 Quad is normal & exciting, 2 is super exciting, but 3 just makes me not want to watch at all most of the time...

 

[Blades of Passion]

Doing the 1Loop+3Sal combination actually became less worthwhile now for females. Females were doing that combination instead of a second +3Toe combo, which allows you to repeat another 3Loop or 3Flip in your program, but it actually never increased your base value and now it actually clearly lowers it because of the increased value of the 3Toe.

For example, look at these two different jump layouts (the other 4 jumps of solo 3Lutz, solo 3Flip, solo 3Loop, and solo 2Axel are the same in both programs):

3Lutz+3Toe
2Axel+3Toe
3Sal+2Toe+2Loop

Base value now is 25.4

and

3Lutz+3Toe
3Loop+1Loop+3Sal
2Axel+2Toe

Base value is now 24.9

You are LOSING points by doing the 1Loop+3Sal combo in a female program. Even if you do a "Gracie Gold" with 3Sal+2Toe+2Toe as your 3-jump combo, it's still worth exactly the same as doing the 1Loop+3Sal combo. The only way this combination is worthwhile for a female program, is if you are doing multiple jumps of 3Axel difficultly or higher in your program, because then the 1Loop+3Sal combo is actually allowing you to get an extra jump into the program that you wouldn't be able to fit otherwise. Good luck doing multiple jumps of 3Axel difficulty or higher, plus all of the other jumps and combinations, as a female skater. You'd have to be Midori Ito in peak form.

 

[alia jackson]

I wonder whether skaters with iffy quads now will practice to land a UR quad consistently if it is difficult for them to get the full quad. It is possible to have a gold medalist who is a master of 2 or 3 UR quads with high PCS

 

[gravy]

I wonder whether skaters with iffy quads now will practice to land a UR quad consistently if it is difficult for them to get the full quad. It is possible to have a gold medalist with 2 or 3 UR quads with high PCS

Better than having a gold medalist with 2 or 3 falls.

 

[TMC]

Better than having a gold medalist with 2 or 3 falls.

I agree. But, as always, ymmv.

2 or 3 falls should certainly have more of an impact on PCS, but that's another can/kettle of worms/fish

 

[alia jackson]

Better than having a gold medalist with 2 or 3 falls.

Yes, so no need to learn and practice hard to fully rotate as fans want to see skaters not falling. Do u think true skating fans will accept this more? Does this mean this skaters have a quad or don't have a quad as they are short on rotation ?

 

[Blades of Passion]

Does this mean skaters have a quad or don't have a quad as they are short on rotation ?

Does it mean skaters have a quad or don't have a quad if they can't land it? Hanyu landed 0 quads at 2015 Worlds.

Basically everything you post says "I'm scared that Jason Brown will magically learn to include multiple clean underrotated quads into perfect programs and beat Yuzuru Hanyu."

And, yes, a skater with 2 UR-but-cleanly-landed quads and high PCS will beat a skater who falls on their rotated Quads, if all else is equal. Nobody except the most extreme fans will find such a result to be inaccurate.

 

[alia jackson]

I'm concerned because it will encourage skaters to master UR landed quad. It can beat Chan , Yuzu, Denis and Javi who has fallen on their quads before . But knowing these four, I don't think they will back down on full rotated quad lol...so we shall see how this new rules impact later. It will be great for Kozuka too :yay:.

Can't wait for the new season to come, I think we shall see more quads attempts

 

[Mrs. P]

I'm concerned because it will encourage skaters to master UR landed quad. It can beat Chan , Yuzu, Denis and Javi who has fallen on their quads before . But knowing these four, I don't think they will back down on full rotated quad lol...so we shall see how this new rules impact later. It will be great for Kozuka too :yay:.

Can't wait for the new season to come, I think we shall see more quads attempts

I don't think anyone honestly will purposely UR. I think everyone's end goal is a fully rotated jump that does not end in a fall. Most, if not all, want to get the jump right period, so I find this "they will learn to do it half heartily" discussion a bit :think:

 

[karne]

I wonder whether skaters with iffy quads now will practice to land a UR quad consistently if it is difficult for them to get the full quad. It is possible to have a gold medalist who is a master of 2 or 3 UR quads with high PCS

You could just say: "I'm actually terrified that now Jason will go in with a strategy to UR the quad and because he actually listens to/interprets the music he might beat Yuzuru."


Frankly, if presented with a multiple-fall (but fully-rotated) program and a multiple UR (but no fall) program I'd say they were both rubbish choices and flip a coin. Both are major, major errors and should be punished heavily.

 

[Blades of Passion]

There was a bit of unnecessary worry 5 years ago, when ISU finally introduced less penalty for underrotated jumps, that people would frequently plan to underrotate jumps.

Has that ever happened? No. What has happened is that people like Kanako Murakami have continually still been held down by phantom UR calls and people like Chan and Hanyu have scored massive points for extremely messy performances.

They actually made underrotated 3Axel worth slightly less this season! Now you lose 2.6 points for underrotating a 3Axel and 2.3 points for underrotating a 4Toe. The ISU can never get it right, but what they've done with the quads this season is at least a baby step in the right direction.