2015-16 State of U.S. Men's Figure Skating

[TMC]

"So now all these gripes and indignation about the 16 years Nathan with 2 quads can not possibly be a threat is frankly ludicrous"

Gripes and indignation?

Where are these? I've only seen posts agreeing that yes, he is a definite threat for the podium and even 1st place (these even from Jason fans). I'm one of those and I agree; #SlaythanNathan has the goods and if he has a good day and others make mistakes then of course he may win/podium and that is absolutely fine.

I've also seen posts that say that Nathan "shouldn't be crowned yet" (whatever that means) and I think that's reasonable too, if it means we shouldn't count out all the other men in September based on a couple of summer competitions. With the men, you can really never know/predict what is going to happen, not even based on the final warm-up of the final group in the final part of the competition.

Also, didn't Adam and Josh both beat Jason in PCS at Nationals in the FS?

 

[OS]

Also, didn't Adam and Josh both beat Jason in PCS at Nationals in the FS?

I am refering to those who keep refering him as the 'kid'. Never mind how Jason were also gifted as a kid once upon a time.

As for PCS, No. Josh only got higher mark in the FS because he got lower PCS in his Give Me Love SP, it was the judges way of compensation, so he got some love. Adam got lower PCS than them both for both events. I thought he should have won the FS PCS. I'd say Jeremy's FS deflation was the result of him winning PCS in his SP, psychologically federation judges probably want to make sure they can put him out of contention for good by FS.

 

[karne]

I've also seen posts that say that Nathan "shouldn't be crowned yet" (whatever that means) and I think that's reasonable too, if it means we shouldn't count out all the other men in September based on a couple of summer competitions.

That is precisely what it means. There are a lot of people in this thread all too eager to toss the other US men on the trash heap and set up Chen as some kind of new king of figure skating. And why? Because he had a couple of decent summer comps against Senior skaters who have a later deadline to be prepared by. Because he won a JGP that was no surprise to anyone.

I am refering to those who keep refering him as the 'kid'. Never mind how Jason were also gifted as a kid once upon a time.

Jason never received anywhere near the hype, marks, and coronation that Chen is being set up for at sixteen. At sixteen, he was the delightful little sprite who didn't have a 3A and therefore, was not relevant to the discussion. Even at eighteen, he was still not in the discussion - you only have to look at the discussions prior to the JGPF that year which were all about Joshua and Kovtun, even though Jason was reigning JGPF champion. He forced his way into the discussion at 19, and it was as it should be.

As for PCS, No. Josh only got higher mark in the FS because he got lower PCS in his Give Me Love SP, it was the judges way of compensation, so he got some love. Adam got lower PCS than them both for both events. I thought he should have won the FS PCS. I'd say Jeremy's FS deflation was the result of him winning PCS in his SP, psychologically federation judges probably want to make sure they can put him out of contention for good by FS.

Jeremy received PCS appropriate for a program that his heart wasn't in (though I don't blame him for that) and that consisted of basically pop, pop, pop. It wasn't some big conspiracy; he just wasn't good enough that time around. That he rallied to even finish fifth was impressive in itself. Adam dug his own grave at US Nationals by planning a downgraded jump right at the beginning of his program. That 4Lz was never even close. Joshua should have beaten Jason in PCS and IIRC, he did. But Jason is National champion and that is correct and as it should be.

And the only skater on that podium to land two quads - including one in combination - was the one who missed the Worlds team. People were very quick to shout "it's not all about the quads!" when that happened, but those same people seem to be equally quick to award Chen a spot on the Worlds team, the National title, because of quads.

And why are people so quick to want to rob Chen of a Junior World title? It's a hefty swag of prize money, and a good dosh of ranking points, to be the Junior World champion, and it's quite an establishment. It also, IIRC, guarantees at least one GP the following season, with the option of a second if he's far enough up in the standings/SBs lists. Joshua and Jason were given such an opportunity, and came away 1 and 2. It established them with the international judges, it moved them up the rankings, and it provided a solid launchpad for their Senior GP debuts.

 

[TMC]

I am refering to those who keep refering him as the 'kid'. Never mind how Jason were also gifted as a kid once upon a time.

As for PCS, No. Josh only got higher mark in the FS because he got lower PCS in his Give Me Love SP, it was the judges way of compensation, so he got some love. Adam got lower PCS than them both for both events. I thought he should have won the FS PCS. I'd say Jeremy's FS deflation was the result of him winning PCS in his SP, psychologically federation judges probably want to make sure they can put him out of contention for good by FS.

You really are beyond Neverland, aren't you?

 

[OS]

You really are beyond Neverland, aren't you?

Yeah I am... and USFSA judges are few more planets beyond my land. It isn't just in the PCS by the way but also in the GOEs.. but alas, make what you will. Can't wait to see US Nationals hohoho. How long will Jason last in the sport without a quad and justify his insane PCS at home. Will Nathan get the Jason 2014 treatment? Stay tuned.

As for Jason at 16, I think you are missing the point. Had Jason got 2 quads at age 16 with a great 3A and solid everything, he would have got the hype. You'd be sure of that. There's real substance behind this hype, that is why I have no problem with it.

 

[TMC]

People were very quick to shout "it's not all about the quads!" when that happened, but those same people seem to be equally quick to award Chen a spot on the Worlds team, the National title, because of quads.

While I agree with most of what you write (as I often do), Karne, I believe this sentence is rather hyperbolic.

It's not a question of posters "awarding" Chen anything. I think it's reasonable to imagine as a possible outcome that he could get, for instance, 85-90 TES and 70-75 PCS. With that total and a good short (and I believe his short is very deserving, PCS-wise, compared to his long), he could conceivably score around 240-250 total. Add Nats inflation and the score could well put him on the World team, if others underperform (compared to last Nationals, for instance).

It is a possibility, and I think posters have indicated that he is already the crowned winner just about as little as they have that Jason is the only guaranteed winner/placer.

In fact, with the quad being in play this season, I would not be terribly surprised if Jason didn't even make the Worlds team
I'd be unhappy for sure, but I probably wouldn't be shocked nor inventing conspiracy theories. Feel free to bump this up if/when he repeats though

 

[Rissa]

Might as well call him some robot now,

Besides, are you seriously telling me listening to Nathan's SaintSaens, you think campiness is the right interpretation? What about Jason's 'Scent of love' FS? Should he maybe hold a red rose between this teeth in the beginning to make it REALLY obvious, then proceed to 'smell it' before 'tossing it' to the judging panel, then spend the rest of the performance act like a love lost love sick puppy dog, with tears streaming down his cheek at the end to show he is REALLY feeling it? LOL... no wonder we disagree. You must also be a huge fan of Maxim's FS this year then!

How about I do it? Here it goes: I found Nathan a bit robotic.

And where did anyone say that it was his Saint Seans program that needed camp? Sounded like more of a general comment but in actuality Nathan's Michael Jackson program WOULD benefit from a bit of camp. From a bit of more fun in it in general.

Geez, os168 takes over karne in the most biased poster I've ever seen here with the added bonus of creating conspiracy theories to support the arguments why reality doesn't agree with her point of view and buckets of exaggeration and putting words in other people's mouths.

I came here after rewatching the few performances from Colorado Springs to see how people feel about Nathan, and wow I had no idea I would jump straight into a Nathan vs Jason fan war.

On the topic of Nathan though: I found him impressive, espcially in the FS. He exuded confidence, the elements were done beautifully, the pogram was marvelously clean. I actually said out loud "wow" at my monitor after he finished and there was no doubt in my eyes that he would be going to places. However, he DID lack emotion to my eyes, both in the Free and the SP. Compared to the technically-disatrous but performance-wise great Daniel Samohin, Nathan was a bit robotic. Many people made the comparison between Nathan and Patrick and how their perfomances are perfect but emotionally unsatisfying and that's how I feel as well. Of course it's probably better to hold yourself tight and execute the program well at the cost of expression than let yourself go and fall a few times but the fact remains that the technical perfection and confindence sort of made the not-enough expression more pronounced? Like, hey this guy is REALLY good, he should do better! It's a Michael Jackson program, where's the fun? He should be having fun! And I believe that Nathan CAN do better. He's not there yet, first competitions, focused on clean execution probably but if he proves to himself a few times that he can execute the program cleanly, perhaps he will transfer some of that focus to expression.

Now about all the Jason stuff: c'mon, if my mother who watches figure skating once a year prononuces him her favorite together with Denis Ten, he's doing something right. Meaning those "cheap tricks" ,"campiness", "kitchines" and whatnot are actually positive qualites that ADD to a pefromance. Jason's skating resonates with lots of people including judges so can we stop with the "I hate his camp and kitch, it must be political manouvering and conspiracy that hands him his high marks becuse if I think he's campy and kitchy and artistically ******, than the judges secretly think so too." Those tricks of his aren't cheap at all, they earn him quite many points.

Whew. Jason, Nathan and Adam Rippon are currently my favorite American skaters, I hope all of them will continue progressing. THe next US Nationals will certainly be interesting with Jason and Nathan as frontrunners (seems to me this way at the moment), with Jason needing to up the techincal content and Nathan needing to up the expression content. US is lucky to have such a variety of talented skaters.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

In fact, with the quad being in play this season, I would not be terribly surprised if Jason didn't even make the Worlds team
I'd be unhappy for sure, but I probably wouldn't be shocked nor inventing conspiracy theories. Feel free to bump this up if/when he repeats though

I would be extremely surprised if Jason didn't make the World team. It's practically an impossibility. The question is, if Brown doesn't ever get a consistent quad (he currently seems a way's away from getting even a fully rotated one), how long with USFSA continue to prop him up? I guess the reality is, the other US men (other than maybe Farris) aren't really stepping up (unfortunately Max will never get the PCS he needs either, even though he's relatively consistent), so Brown is still one of the top guys (and obviously his excellent artistry helps). But with Chen coming onto the scene in such fine form (and yes, that's only one JGP event people are going crazy over), you'd have to think one of those top spots will be challenged in the future by Chen.

I mean, we all know if Brown comes 4th and Chen comes 2nd or 3rd at Nationals, they're going to send Brown to Worlds and Chen to Junior Worlds. The depth of US men is sufficient enough to send them that way. In the case of Nguyen, there really wasn't any better option (by far) to send to Senior Worlds (especially with Patrick out and Kevin struggling), so it made sense for him to do Junior + Senior Worlds.

 

[OS]

Now about all the Jason stuff: c'mon, if my mother who watches figure skating once a year prononuces him her favorite together with Denis Ten, he's doing something right. Meaning those "cheap tricks" ,"campiness", "kitchines" and whatnot are actually positive qualites that ADD to a pefromance. Jason's skating resonates with lots of people including judges so can we stop with the "I hate his camp and kitch, it must be political manouvering and conspiracy that hands him his high marks becuse if I think he's campy and kitchy and artistically ******, than the judges secretly think so too." Those tricks of his aren't cheap at all, they earn him quite many points.

Whew. Jason, Nathan and Adam Rippon are currently my favorite American skaters, I hope all of them will continue progressing. THe next US Nationals will certainly be interesting with Jason and Nathan as frontrunners (seems to me this way at the moment), with Jason needing to up the techincal content and Nathan needing to up the expression content. US is lucky to have such a variety of talented skaters.

Why don't we just get rid of judges and put your mother as the 'decider' then.

Let's get rid of PCS criteria or the COP and just crown her fav. Might as well not pretend this is an Olympic sport anymore and in fact take it off and put together to an audience vote call 0800 vote for Jason. As for biases, yes of course I have them. It is called a point of view, but so does everyone else. Bottom line is Jason Brown is over scored in PCS for a junior at US nationals and has a history of getting held up when the performance doesn't match up.

I don't think that is fine or fair ... and seems international judges agrees with me more and emphatically shows quad do matter contrary to some of his defenders last season. IMO Adam's international standing is down for the past 2 years because of the Brown factor. I am surprised you don't see it.

 

[TMC]

Why don't we just get rid of judges and put your mother as the 'decider' then.

Let's get rid of PCS criteria or the COP and just crown her fav. Might as well not pretend this is an Olympic sport anymore and in fact take it off and put together to an audience vote call 0800 vote for Jason. As for biases, yes of course I have them. It is called a point of view, but so does everyone else. Bottom line is Jason Brown is over scored in PCS for a junior at US nationals and has a history of getting held up when the performance doesn't match up.

I don't think that is fine or fair ... and seems international judges agrees with me more and emphatically shows quad do matter contrary to some of his defenders last season. IMO Adam's international standing is down for the past 2 years because of the Brown factor. I am surprised you don't see it.

I think you could probably do with a bit of a sit-down and a cup of tea.

 

[Tavi...]

@os168, I really don't know what to say to you at this point. I disagree with just about everything you said. I think you simply don't like Jason's skating in general, no matter what the facts say.

I strongly disagree with you that Nam convincingly beat Jason at Worlds, that Jason's PCS were overinflated, and that Nam's PCS was depressed so that Jason could beat him.

Ignoring PCS for the moment, Jason's TES in the free skate was lower than normal because he got a downgrade on one triple axel. That's it. Had he simply fully rotated that axel, even leaving the -1.43 GOE on that jump, his TES would have increased 5.72 points, to 85.09, 3.14 less than Nam's. If he had fully rotated the jump and simply gotten neutral, rather than negative GOE, his TES would have increased to 86.52, 1.76 points lower than Nam's. Basically, except for that one downgraded, negative GOE axel, the judges think Jason's technical execution of his elements is better than Nam's.

You can see this clearly in the short program, where Jason's total TES was actually 2 points higher than Nam's even though Nam's base value was about 1 point higher. If you look at the individual elements, you'll see that Jason got higher GOE than Nam on all three jumping passes, including his 3A. If you total TES from both programs, Jason is at 123.55 versus 130.33 for Nam. Give Jason 5.72 points for fully rotating that axel, and his total tech score is 129.27, even with negative GOE.

So even looking at TES, I don't think Nam beat Jason convincingly. And as explained in my last post, I think Jason deserved higher PCS than Nam. You clearly disagree. But IMO, you haven't made a convincing case for why Jason doesn't deserve his PCS. As near as I can tell, you simply dislike his skating and think that his PCS are undeserved because he doesn't have a quad. You really seem to think that unless a senior man can execute a quad or two, he shouldn't be competing. Well, I disagree.

To bring this back to US men, it's a bit hard to compare Nathan and Jason because 1) there is an age difference; and 2) Nathan has been frequently injured. But as @Karne said, Nathan received far more attention at a young age than Jason ever did. Nathan was featured skating at Nats galas as a cute little prodigy. This year when he made his senior debut, NBC aired a fluff piece about him. When Jason made his senior debut in 2011, he didn't get a fluff piece - in fact, his free skate wasn't even aired.

Nathan and Jason both made similar senior debuts - Jason placed 9th and Nathan placed 8th. But Nathan's PCS and TES were both scored higher than Jason's. Jason's PCS jumped both nationally and internationally when 1) he added a 3A and 2) he went senior internationally. For that reason, I'm sure that Nathan's PCS will increase when he skates as a senior internationally.

 

[Rissa]

Why don't we just get rid of judges and put your mother as the 'decider' then.

Here's the shocker: it's not necesarry because judges seem to be kinda in agreement with my mother.

Bottom line is Jason Brown is over scored in PCS for a junior at US nationals and has a history of getting held up when the performance doesn't match up.

Says... you. Well, it must be true than.

IMO Adam's international standing is down for the past 2 years because of the Brown factor. I am surprised you don't see it.

... Lol what, and where did I say "I don't see it" (whether I agree with "it" being an entirely different matter)? Or even imply it? All I said was that Adam was one of my favorites, how you arrived at your conclusion I can't even fathom. I mean seriously how is it possible to conduct a discussion when the other side is seeing what's not there and willfully ignores what is.

 

[Ice Dance]

I mean, we all know if Brown comes 4th and Chen comes 2nd or 3rd at Nationals, they're going to send Brown to Worlds and Chen to Junior Worlds.

I don't think we know this. It is a fear I have if Nathan comes third (not second). But it may certainly depend on the type of season they have leading into Nationals. I don't think USFSA regretted leaving Johnny Weir home the year after he earned a World bronze. The general viewpoint seemed to be that it made him work harder for the Olympic season. Jason did very well at Worlds. But he didn't medal. He didn't make the GPF. He's not going to have an easy time making it this season either. The men's field is stacked & he isn't necessarily an early season skater. He didn't win any Grand Prix events last season, and he didn't medal at Four Continents. However, Jason tends to be right on target by Nationals, provided he can hold up to the pressure of defending.

 

[StitchMonkey]

And the only skater on that podium to land two quads - including one in combination - was the one who missed the Worlds team. People were very quick to shout "it's not all about the quads!" when that happened, but those same people seem to be equally quick to award Chen a spot on the Worlds team, the National title, because of quads.

Really if anyone has reason to complain about Nationals PCS inflation, it is Max and he should complain about the lack he receives. I really wish i actually understood enough about skating to understand why Max's are so much lower, but alas I think i would need to actually get on the ice to learn that lesson.

And why are people so quick to want to rob Chen of a Junior World title? It's a hefty swag of prize money, and a good dosh of ranking points, to be the Junior World champion, and it's quite an establishment. It also, IIRC, guarantees at least one GP the following season, with the option of a second if he's far enough up in the standings/SBs lists. Joshua and Jason were given such an opportunity, and came away 1 and 2. It established them with the international judges, it moved them up the rankings, and it provided a solid launchpad for their Senior GP debuts.

I tend to agree with this. A world junior title should not be scoffed at, it should be respected and honored. Nathan can win a world junior title this year, go senior next year, and thus have more senior experience prior to the Olympics than Jason had. The Olympic season is a long way away and a lot can happen.

To be fully honest I am not a big fan of the "well they did well at Nationals, time to promote them to senior" strategy. At a minimum skaters like that should be sent to 4CC to put their senior programs on display at least once. I also am not crazy about the best JGP skaters not being at junior worlds - the other skaters should get to compete against them. Junior skaters and skating should be respected - junior worlds should be an honor to compete at. I wish more people were hoping to see Nathan win junior worlds like it was a good thing rather than some kind of consolation prize.

Much like last year, I just hope the guys that get sent learn to enjoy their programs and love competing them!

I think you could probably do with a bit of a sit-down and a cup of tea.

Ohh I think they need to spice that tea up with some whiskey or schnapps!

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Really if anyone has reason to complain about Nationals PCS inflation, it is Max and he should complain about the lack he receives. I really wish i actually understood enough about skating to understand why Max's are so much lower, but alas I think i would need to actually get on the ice to learn that lesson.

Max has done a lot to improve, but he's fundamentally viewed as a technical skater. Although beyond that, he lacks the edges and flow of some of the other guys. It's unfortunate because I think he's a fine skater, but the judges will never see him as an artistic skater no matter how much he improves on that. At this point, his only hope is to do consistent programs.

Chen, on the other hand, is building stock by showing he can handle tough choreo and reel off two quads and two axels. That's pretty difficult to ignore.

I'm annoyed by those saying Chen is robotic. He's clearly very focused and lands a very difficult layout. His spins could use more levels and he lacks projection but that's okay. I can't agree with the whole people cutting Jason slack for being technically deficient but artistically great, but then Nathan puts out a technical masterpiece and one of the hardest free programs executed (certainly at the junior level) and people rake him over the coals for not being artistic enough.

 

[Tavi...]

Nobody is cutting Jason slack.

If people aren't moved by Chen, they aren't moved by him. Just as people like @os168 aren't moved by Jason. People are entitled to their opinions.

Technical difficulty isn't the be all and end all of skating. Just because someone does a technically difficult program doesn't mean they're automatically entitled to higher PCS or that areas where they need to grow should be ignored.

 

[OS]

Sigh... i wonder what type of teas you guys are drinking in the US of A, clearly too much Jason Brown extra Kool-Aids.

@os168, I really don't know what to say to you at this point. I disagree with just about everything you said. I think you simply don't like Jason's skating in general, no matter what the facts say.

I strongly disagree with you that Nam convincingly beat Jason at Worlds, that Jason's PCS were overinflated, and that Nam's PCS was depressed so that Jason could beat him.

Ignoring PCS for the moment, Jason's TES in the free skate was lower than normal because he got a downgrade on one triple axel. That's it. Had he simply fully rotated that axel, even leaving the -1.43 GOE on that jump, his TES would have increased 5.72 points, to 85.09, 3.14 less than Nam's. If he had fully rotated the jump and simply gotten neutral, rather than negative GOE, his TES would have increased to 86.52, 1.76 points lower than Nam's. Basically, except for that one downgraded, negative GOE axel, the judges think Jason's technical execution of his elements is better than Nam's.

You can see this clearly in the short program, where Jason's total TES was actually 2 points higher than Nam's even though Nam's base value was about 1 point higher. If you look at the individual elements, you'll see that Jason got higher GOE than Nam on all three jumping passes, including his 3A. If you total TES from both programs, Jason is at 123.55 versus 130.33 for Nam. Give Jason 5.72 points for fully rotating that axel, and his total tech score is 129.27, even with negative GOE.

So even looking at TES, I don't think Nam beat Jason convincingly. And as explained in my last post, I think Jason deserved higher PCS than Nam. You clearly disagree. But IMO, you haven't made a convincing case for why Jason doesn't deserve his PCS. As near as I can tell, you simply dislike his skating and think that his PCS are undeserved because he doesn't have a quad. You really seem to think that unless a senior man can execute a quad or two, he shouldn't be competing. Well, I disagree.

To bring this back to US men, it's a bit hard to compare Nathan and Jason because 1) there is an age difference; and 2) Nathan has been frequently injured. But as @Karne said, Nathan received far more attention at a young age than Jason ever did. Nathan was featured skating at Nats galas as a cute little prodigy. This year when he made his senior debut, NBC aired a fluff piece about him. When Jason made his senior debut in 2011, he didn't get a fluff piece - in fact, his free skate wasn't even aired.

Nathan and Jason both made similar senior debuts - Jason placed 9th and Nathan placed 8th. But Nathan's PCS and TES were both scored higher than Jason's. Jason's PCS jumped both nationally and internationally when 1) he added a 3A and 2) he went senior internationally. For that reason, I'm sure that Nathan's PCS will increase when he skates as a senior internationally.

Nonono... oh dear... what have i got myself into. For the Nth time I never claim Jason deserve lower PCS than Nam (or Nathan) or that he is a bad/poor skater. I am referring exclusively to his PCS overmarking at US Nationals. For goodness sake he received higher PCS than Patrick Chan and Hanyu at their own inflated national! It took someone of Jeremy's caliber how many years of world class medals, international successes, and huge body of work to achieve his level of PCS? Jason practically equaled it over night as a junior? (Since they have done this, it opens the possibility Nathan can do the same if he deliver!) In what way is Jason equalling Jeremy as a junior or senior, I honestly don't see it - other than his team chose program that has obvious popular appeal to highlight his showmanship while masking his flaws.... all of which he is working on improving with current year's FS. Something he won't able to hide behind the bombastic music with big all too obvious movements like he has done, but really need to pay attention to the music nuances and improve the overall sensitivity in between these movements to interpret and navigate around more delicate music intentions with less obvious section of the choreography.

How can a crass program like Juke program without quads beat Parisienne Walkways and Elegy? Think about it. Come on! How can anyone not think it is wrong and outrageous? Never mind the quadless factor. People also missed out the most obvious points behind my complaints, is not that ONLY the score is too inflated, but it created this huge artificial gap to rest of the US men. For example in the 2014 FS skate alone, is Jason really 13.4 PCS better than Max, 9.82 better than Josh, 14.82 better than Ricki, 12.4 better than Adam in just FS alone? They could have aced their quads and go clean and likely still wouldn't be able to catch up with quadless Jason.

 

[Rissa]

Sigh... i wonder what type of teas you guys are drinking in the US of A, clearly too much Jason Brown extra Kool-Aids. .

Excuse me, it's not just the US of A, my mother and I are drinking that extra Jason Brown Kool-Aid tea all the way in Europe.

 

[OS]

Excuse me, it's not just the US of A, my mother and I are drinking that extra Jason Brown Kool-Aid tea all the way in Europe.

Where can i get some. Sound like I may need to swallow it hard to survive the rest of the season

 

[Mrs. P]

Where can i get some. Sound like I may need to swallow it hard to survive the rest of the season

The easiest way for all of us to survive the rest of the season is if we all realize that others have differing opinions regarding different skaters, including those we may not care for.

Anyway, lest we think that the U.S. men's field is only two people, it's worth noting that Vincent Zhou is at JGP Austria this week. I think he has a shot at winning this, but Dmitri Aliev from Russia will do his best to stand in his way. But I think Vincent has a good shot for silver and perhaps a berth to the JGPF.