Russia Doping Report

[hurrah]

I am merely saying that athletes (as a whole) should not be names as unless it is fact-based.

Information provided in the German ARD documentary and 325-page WADA report could arguably be seen as 'fact-based', no? There are no substantial 'facts' provided by legitimate sources which point to Usain Bolt doping himself, is there? Under the circumstance, it seems more acceptable to speculate about what comprises the '99%' than to speculate about Usain Bolt's doping status.

 

[eli60056]

Information provided in the German ARD documentary and 325-page WADA report could arguably be seen as 'fact-based', no? There are no substantial 'facts' provided by legitimate sources which point to Usain Bolt doping himself, is there? Under the circumstance, it seems more acceptable to speculate about what comprises the '99%' than to speculate about Usain Bolt's doping status.

Forgive me if you are too young to remember this or don't have any idea of what I am talking about, but in the not so distant past a whole war was started based on "facts". I distinctly remember seeing said "facts" on all American media, but most memorably on Fox News and CNN. I am talking about the Iraq war of course. Bush was 99% certain at the time if I remember correctly. Then came the "Ooops". Speculation doesn't help anything, it is more for entertainment value. I personally wouldn't dare to speculate neither on figure skaters, nor on Bolt, that would be entirely disrespectful/slanderous to anyone who is not proved to be guilty of doping.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

So why is it okay to speculate that Usain Bolt may be doping, and not okay to speculate that Russian figure skaters may be doping?

Wasn't the investigation based solely on track and field? Seems to me kind of irresponsible jump to such a conclusion since there isn't any evidence to suggest what you are saying has any credibility.

One of the first pages of the report clearly states that while this report is based on incidents in Russia the governing bodies and investigators involved acknowledge that this is a worldwide problem and in no way limited to Russia. Does that mean we should start speculating who they mean? Personally I think the more you try to make this a "Russian" thing the more you take away from what should be the actual focus of the story. Athletes safety and the governing bodies of these sports inability to properly monitor it. To me...that's what should be the most important issue. Until sports like track and field which are known to have rampant doping have a vested interest in stopping the doping...it will not ever stop? It sounds to me like people in the highest levels of international athletics may also be involved. I don't even think I need to speculate about that.

Re: Sochi results of every nations figure skaters at the last Olympics

The IOC studied the functioning of the WADA accredited laboratory in Sochi during the Olympic Winter Games 2014 following the doubts expressed during the Independent Commission’s press conference. In this context the IOC relies on the then report of the WADA independent observer group which makes no mention of any such irregularity. Nor was any such irregularity reported by the international experts involved, nor found by the IOC itself. Therefore, the IOC has no reason to question the credibility of the results of the anti-doping tests carried out at the Olympic Winter Games 2014. However, the IOC retaining all the doping samples for ten years, will retest samples in an appropriate way should substantial doubts arise. In any case, the IOC may retest samples once new scientific techniques become available

 

[Violet Bliss]

I am merely saying that athletes (as a whole) should not be names as unless it is fact-based.

I was not disagreeing with you. I too consider it slander unless proven.

 

[hurrah]

Wasn't the investigation based solely on track and field? Seems to me kind of irresponsible jump to such a conclusion since there isn't any evidence to suggest what your saying has any credibility.

One of the first pages of the report clearly states that while this report is based on incidents in Russia the governing bodies and investigators involved acknowledge that this is a worldwide problem and in no way limited to Russia. Does that mean we should start speculating who they mean? Personally I think the more you try to make tahis a "Russian" thing the more you take away from what should be the actual focus of the story. Athletes safety and the governing bodies of these sports inability to properly monitor it. To me...that's what should be the most important issue. Until sports like track and field which are known to have rampant doping have a vested interest in stopping the doping...it will not ever stop? It sounds to me like people in the highest levels of international athletics may also be involved. I don't even think I need to speculate about that.

See:
Russian athletics doping row could spread to other sports (http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2015/11/12/russian-athletics-doping-row-could-spread-other-sports)

In a report commissioned by the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA), investigators described a state-sponsored drugs culture in Russian athletics. "There is no reason to believe that athletics is the only sport in Russia to have been affected," it said while acknowledging its own remit was limited to athletics.The allegations of drug-taking in athletics - and the prospect Russian athletes could be barred from the Rio Olympics next year as a consequence - is already the biggest sporting scandal to hit Russia for several decades.
But if the affair snowballs to include other sports, including some that are hugely popular, it could cut even deeper into Russian pride which in the past few years has been riding high after a run of sporting successes.
A large part of the allegations in the 323-page report centres around a laboratory in Moscow which processed blood and urine samples from Russian athletes on behalf of the athletics federation, and tested them for banned performance enhancing drugs.
...
According to the Internet site of the Russian anti-doping agency, Rusada, the Moscow laboratory also processed tests for at least 20 other sports besides athletics.
These included such sports as ski jumping, cross-country skiing, power-lifting, boxing, rowing, ice hockey, soccer, biathlon and bobsleigh.

So Rusada, Moscow does in fact test figure skaters: http://www.rusada.ru/en/press/news/figure-skater-alisa-lisovskaya-provisionally-suspended

I wonder why Alisa Lisovskaya wasn't protected? It would be too diabolical to imagine the reasons why.

Anyway, so basically, even though the report centers on track & field, investigators are saying: "There is no reason to believe that athletics is the only sport in Russia to have been affected." I guess if the investigators are willing to 'speculate' that the problem isn't limited to track and field, it isn't too irresponsible for me to speculate the possibility, either.

 

[TheGrandSophy]

And there is every possibility the IOC will get involved and other sports' federations will investigate both concerning Russia and all other nations. However, until that is the case and until there are FACTS, speculation can can get out of control and become slanderous.

 

[hurrah]

And there is every possibility the IOC will get involved and other sports' federations will investigate both concerning Russia and all other nations. However, until that is the case and until there are FACTS, speculation can can get out of control and become slanderous.

Rusada has destroyed 1,417 samples that they were meant to keep, so I guess all we can do is speculate.

 

[TheGrandSophy]

Rusada has destroyed 1,417 samples that they were meant to keep, so I guess all we can do is speculate.

No, we can leave it to the proper authorities to investigate and publish names where appropriate.

If they don't do so, sport will eventually implode. But slandering people ain't gonna help.

 

[hurrah]

No, we can leave it to the proper authorities to investigate and publish names where appropriate.

I hope they publish the names of the 1,417 samples that Rusada destroyed, but I kind of doubt that that will happen. Personally, I am okay with speculating that figure skaters were in those samples. It seems common-sensical to me, but I understand that some posters don't wanna go there.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I hope they publish the names of the 1,417 samples that Rusada destroyed, but I kind of doubt that that will happen. Personally, I am okay with speculating that figure skaters were in those samples. It seems common-sensical to me, but I understand that some posters don't wanna go there.

But what of that fact that IOC has no reason to be suspect of the Sochi drug tests based on WADA's investigation which clearly included figure skaters? Isn't that a more clear indication that doesn't involve speculation? Just trying to be common-sensical here myself.

TBH I think all of your finger pointing is really detracting from the potential lesson in this story.

 

[lavender]

This is crazy but they did mention interference at the Winter Olympics in Sochi.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/international/ct-russia-track-doping-20151110-story.html

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

This is crazy but they did mention interference at the Winter Olympics in Sochi.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/international/ct-russia-track-doping-20151110-story.html

It's odd because they mention this:

It said that agents from the FSB intelligence service interfered with the work of a doping lab during last year's Winter Olympics in the Russian resort of Sochi.

And then never elaborate? Seems kind of silly not to produce the actual facts of a claim made in a news report. How did they interfere? What sport(s) were involved with the alleged interference? But what's even more strange is the report that they quote is the same one that I quoted last page that says in conclusion there is no reason to be suspect of the Sochi drug results?

 

[hurrah]

Personally, I am happy to opine that Russian figure skaters are doped, given the strong circumstantial evidence that has come out. But more than anything, I would be happy if the forum could more forthrightly discuss this matter further.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I would need absolute proof before I would ever dare to call someone a doper. I guess I'm going to side with Rod Stewart on this one.

https://youtu.be/7ii93UysVSY?t=50s

 

[cruzceleste]

I hope they publish the names of the 1,417 samples that Rusada destroyed, but I kind of doubt that that will happen. Personally, I am okay with speculating that figure skaters were in those samples. It seems common-sensical to me, but I understand that some posters don't wanna go there.

I don´t think they should, they probably just wanted to test some of them, but the man in charge destroy them all.

 

[tulosai]

hurrah, I don't think the issue is with the bare bones of your argument, but with the way you repeatedly keep trying to present it, despite repeatedly being advised that it's not appropriate to present it on this forum in this way. I personally, having read the report and watched the documentary, feel the evidence at this point appears to be conclusive and very damning. I don't think anyone could deny, having read it and watched the documentary, that those problem appears to be downright endemic in Russian sports, and that it's unfortunately likely that at least some skaters in Russia are doping, and that the state is probably helping any who might be doping to do it.

I think you mistakenly seem to think you're not allowed to make a statement to that effect, but the truth is you haven't been making a statement to that effect. You have repeatedly tried to name specific skaters (giving wrong information about some of them such as that you think they're doping because they retired even though the skaters you were saying retired are not actually retired), and then when you couldn't' do that you have made very broad assertions to the effect that you are certain skaters are doping, that you want to know whose samples were destroyed since to you that would be proof those skaters are doing and so on.

We do have proof at this point that some specific Russian athletes are doping. If you find proof that any skaters are among them, I'm the first to encourage you to come share their names. But until them your repetitive arguments are really not appropriate.

I also generally don't find it helpful that you seem comfortable, for example, telling some unnamed individual that they are part of the problem without identifying them, and don't think that's helping you gain any credibility here. I frankly don't think such allegations are appropriate either, regardless who they are directed to, but if you feel you must make them, it would be courteous for you to identify the individual that you are talking to and identify exactly what you think they are part of the problem of and why, so that they can present their own perspective on the situation and rebut you if possible, and also so that the rest of us can actually follow the conversation.

 

[hurrah]

hurrah, I don't think the issue is with the bare bones of your argument, but with the way you repeatedly keep trying to present it, despite repeatedly being advised that it's not appropriate to present it on this forum in this way. I personally, having read the report and watched the documentary, feel the evidence at this point appears to be conclusive and very damning. I don't think anyone could deny, having read it and watched the documentary, that those problem appears to be downright endemic in Russian sports, and that it's unfortunately likely that at least some skaters in Russia are doping, and that the state is probably helping any who might be doping to do it.

I think you mistakenly seem to think you're not allowed to make a statement to that effect, but the truth is you haven't been making a statement to that effect. You have repeatedly tried to name specific skaters (giving wrong information about some of them such as that you think they're doping because they retired even though the skaters you were saying retired are not actually retired), and then when you couldn't' do that you have made very broad assertions to the effect that you are certain skaters are doping, that you want to know whose samples were destroyed since to you that would be proof those skaters are doing and so on.

We do have proof at this point that some specific Russian athletes are doping. If you find proof that any skaters are among them, I'm the first to encourage you to come share their names. But until them your repetitive arguments are really not appropriate.

I also generally don't find it helpful that you seem comfortable, for example, telling some unnamed individual that they are part of the problem without identifying them, and don't think that's helping you gain any credibility here. I frankly don't think such allegations are appropriate either, regardless who they are directed to, but if you feel you must make them, it would be courteous for you to identify the individual that you are talking to and identify exactly what you think they are part of the problem of and why, so that they can present their own perspective on the situation and rebut you if possible, and also so that the rest of us can actually the conversation.

Since you bring it up, I will say that YOU actually refers to whoever deleted a comment I made where I straightforwardly expressed my opinion that certain Russian figure skaters (and I did name names, which I will not do here, otherwise, this post will immediately get deleted again) at Sochi must have been doped, given the damning information that has come out. You, tulosi, agree with me, right, that there is a strong likelihood that they were?

And then I got all this grief from posters here about how slanderous it was to mention specific names. I thought there was hypocrisy and double standard involved in such accusations, since another poster had basically speculated that Usain Bolt might be doping right after my comment was deleted, and no one pounced on that remark as being slanderous, until I pointed this out.

Anyway, for me, I got what I wanted out of this discussion. I understand that many posters here don't want to raise this issue.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

The more I read of the actual report the more I wonder what an investigation into WADA might reveal. Seems ridiculous to call a laboratory that you've documented suspicious activity at on several occasions and say...I'll be there in a week to check your samples. What?

The point here is while it is clear that Russia has a doping problem in track and field, as I'm sure all other countries do **cough cough KENYA**, the most important thing we can take from this situation is the lack of oversight is actually enabling this activity and the most reasonable thing for me to speculate is that people within the organising bodies and oversight teams are compromised and likely involved at all levels. This report really makes WADA look like fools IMO.

 

[tulosai]

Since you bring it up, I will say that YOU actually refers to whoever deleted a comment I made where I straightforwardly expressed my opinion that certain Russian figure skaters (and I did name names, which I will not do here, otherwise, this post will immediately get deleted again) at Sochi must have been doped, given the damning information that has come out. You, tulosi, agree with me, right, that there is a strong likelihood that they were?

And then I got all this grief from posters here about how slanderous it was to mention specific names. I thought there was hypocrisy and double standard involved in such accusations, since another poster had basically speculated that Usain Bolt might be doping right after my comment was deleted, and no one pounced on that remark as being slanderous, until I pointed this out.

Anyway, for me, I got what I wanted out of this discussion. I understand that many posters here don't want to raise this issue.

No. I do not agree at this point that there is any way to determine the specific likelihood that any specific individuals have doped at any specific events, other than those specifically identified in the report. There is a difference between saying that based on the totality of the evidence some skaters are probably doping and trying to name individuals and events when no concrete evidence exists. To me this difference is fundamental. Again, if you have some proof of what you assert, present it.

 

[tulosai]

The more I read of the actual report the more I wonder what an investigation into WADA might reveal. Seems ridiculous to call a laboratory that you've documented suspicious activity at on several occasions and say...I'll be there in a week to check your samples. What?

The point here is while it is clear that Russia has a doping problem in track and field, as I'm sure all other countries do **cough cough KENYA**, the most important thing we can take from this situation is the lack of oversight is actually enabling this activity and the most reasonable thing for me to speculate is that people within the organising bodies and oversight teams are compromised and likely involved at all levels. This report really makes WADA look like fools IMO.

I don't know if it exactly makes WADA look like fools, but it does show that they actually have very little power and oversight, which IMO has to change if there is to be any real hope of progress in this area.