Russia Doping Report

[CaroLiza_fan]

No. what you can't do is accuse any specific person of doping, if there is no proof that specific person doped

Let's say John Smith is a skater, and Jane Doe is a doping track star

If there is a statement in a report about Doe's doping that John Smith doped, you could cite the page in the report and say that John Smith is a doper.

However, if Jane Doe says many people dope, that is not proof that John Smith dopes, if Doe does not mention Smith by name.

Furthermore, if Doe is a track star and says she knows people from some other sports dope, too, you don't even have proof that Doe saw even one skater doping, let alone John Smith.

So if you make a statement that John Smith is a doper in that case, you have committed libel.

Seeing as John Smith has been brought into the conversation, what about his girlfriend, Pocahontas, who competes in another sport?

If Johnny boy was caught doping, that doesn't necessarily mean that Pocahontas was at it as well. Or that she even knew that he was doping. It just means that John Smith was doping.

So, we have to be careful about what we say about Pocahontas as well. Or any other member of John Smith's family, for that matter.

CaroLiza_fan

 

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Seeing as John Smith has been brought into the conversation, what about his girlfriend, Pocahontas, who competes in another sport?

If Johnny boy was caught doping, that doesn't necessarily mean that Pocahontas was at it as well. Or that she even knew that he was doping. It just means that John Smith was doping.

So, we have to be careful about what we say about Pocahontas as well. Or any other member of John Smith's family, for that matter.

CaroLiza_fan

There are some absurd accusations of Russian figure skaters. If the idea is "let deprive Russia of international sports as other sanctions seem to fail" all the necessary "evidence" will be supplied. Then I am not stupid - I see for example how physically exhausted are Kovtun and Voronov after FS while some others are fresh and smiling. Does it prove anything? Of course, not. But those who do not have agenda but who are willing to analyze can deduce something out of it.

 

[dorispulaski]

All true. Nor can we say that John's training mate Powhatan either doped or knew John was doping.

 

[dorispulaski]

There are some absurd accusations of Russian figure skaters. If the idea is "let deprive Russia of international sports as other sanctions seem to fail" all the necessary "evidence" will be supplied. Then I am not stupid - I see for example how physically exhausted are Kovtun and Voronov after FS while some others are fresh and smiling. Does it prove anything? Of course, not. But those who do not have agenda but who are willing to analyze can deduce something out of it.

Well, quite a lot of skaters do a lot of full run throughs at mile high altitude.

 

[Snow63]

Other nations are also guilty, claims Victor Conte
Conte alleged that the United States had been guilty of cover-ups ­involving big name

Source: http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/sport/athletics/article4610708.ece

Can anyone who have subscription post this article here? If it's not illegal of course.

 

[dorispulaski]

http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/wireStory/johnson-jones-armstrong-sports-doping-hall-shame-35102484

This recent article details doping scandals in other countries, including the US.


Info on Victor Conte. His info appears to be about the Seoul Olympic Games

http://www.mercurynews.com/sports/ci_23998820/balcos-victor-conte-now-realizes-errors-his-past

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/sports/...says-coverup-protected-big-stars-seoul-games/

 

[solani]

Everytime when we're confronted with a new doping scandal Angel Heredia and Victor Conte are giving their opinions. They know what they're talking about naturally, because both of them are criminals who earned a lot of money by either producing or distributing PED's. I get kind of angry when I read the headline "BALCO's Victor Conte now realizes the errors of his past". This guy has lost nothing, well ok, he served 4 months in prison and another 4 months in house arrest (most of it because of money laundering), but the guy is still the president of BALCO and richer than ever. He put the life and health of many people at risk, it's very probable that the people who took BALCO's PED's will suffer from after-effects because of the kind of PED's BALCO was producing (the steroid "the clear" was a designer steroid (based on a highly dangerous steroid that was never approved for human use, because of it's severe side effects! We are not talking about a relatively safe steroid like Stanozolol or Oral-Turinabol, this stuff is really dangerous.).
I don't know what Angel Heireda is doing now, but I doubt that anyone in Track and Field wants to be associated with him, so I don't think that he knows anything about current processes.

 

[hurrah]

Wow, psusanne, you know alot. I was naive and it never occurred to me to judge a figure skater's performance with the possibility of drug enhancement as part of the equation. But now that I know that it is not unusual, I will always watch figure skating with this possibility in the back of my mind.

It's kind of ironic that now, I'll be able to see a figure skater's under-rotation issues, lack of speed, headcaseness, and injuries in a positive light in some respects, as good indication that they are not doping!!

But it's really terrible that I'll always suspect medalists and wonder if they were doped, when there surely must be medalists who haven't. Well, as of now, I guess it's only Russian and East German figure skaters who have been caught? There are no Canadian, American, Japanese, etc. figure skaters who have set a precedent yet?

 

[solani]

Since the Festina scandal (Tour de France 1998) I try to follow the darker side of sport. A great help is this homepage. It's in german, but they post links to doping related articles in english as well.
I think that athletes will always try to gain advantages over other athletes, but they don't want to be cheaters. And most of them (I exclude Mr. Armstrong, he's a bully) want to win fair and square and the athletes who're using PED's or other prohibited methods really (want to) think that everyone else is also using it. F.e. (because he was mentioned earlier) I respect Ben Johnson and I believe what he's telling us now. And he was the best in 1988 (I think only one guy from the 100m final in 1988 isn't related to a doping scandal) and I believe that his urine sample has been tampered with. He was the perfect scapegoat.
The problem is if everyone is using it all athletes lose in the end and the criminals who make it all possible win.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Since we are quoting the documentary so frequently we really shouldn't ignore that of all of the sports mentioned(remember when Vitaley was asked which sports) and he named a lot of them....figure skating was not mentioned.

Two things make FS seem less likely for widespread doping.

1) The prize money isn't there and it would be less than the cost of doping. Also it wouldn't attract the big name sharks because there is no money to be made which appears to be at the heart and the true driving force of this scandal.

2) FS is a skilled sport first and foremost. While PED's would aid in training...in the end it isn't going to give a skater more skills to perform their jumps.

I was reading a report on this from a biathlon/skiing magazine and it indicated that Russia's top lady was caught and suspended from Sochi Winter Games just prior. This shows that some elite atheletes were caught and dealt with. In addition during that time only approved people from IOC were allowed into the Sochi labs so if there was any wrong doing in Sochi it will imply that the IOC itself has been breached since they were to have a full time presence in the lab. All of the samples from Sochi are still saved and will be for another 8 years.

Not saying it isn't possible that it's happening on a large scale because I'm not going to make foolish assumptions but the driving force of this thing is money. How much money can a supplier really stand to gain from a figure skater winning medals. Then again....how much does a shot put athlete win?

Two of the three doping violations in figure skating seem rather innocent. One was for cough medication taken during euros and the other was a topical face cream that had a flushing agent in it but was given due to swelling in the face. The medication wasn't listed itself as being banned but a substance found in it was. The ISU chose the minimum sentence in this case because the story in their words "was believable" The third was taking a diuretic because he couldn't fit into his costume seems kinda lame.

The problem is the criminals pedaling this stuff and profiting from it. Evil people who are playing on both sides of the fight. People who lie for a living and don't bat an eye at the lives they are destroying.

 

[hurrah]

Not saying it isn't possible that it's happening on a large scale because I'm not going to make foolish assumptions but the driving force of this thing is money.

Exactly, and it's going to lead to better protection for the vulnerable athletes if we fans continue to voice some suspicion that Russian figure skaters may be doped. The more figure skating fans continue to remain openly vigilant of that possibility, less likely will it be for the criminals to push figure skaters to take dope, especially since figure skating does continue to be one of the most popular spectator sports.

 

[eli60056]

Exactly, and it's going to lead to better protection for the vulnerable athletes if we fans continue to voice some suspicion that Russian figure skaters may be doped. The more figure skating fans continue to remain openly vigilant of that possibility, less likely will it be for the criminals to push figure skaters to take dope, especially since figure skating does continue to be one of the most popular spectator sports.

You have said that many times now. But repeating it over and over is not going to make it a gospel truth.

 

[hurrah]

You have said that many times now. But repeating it over and over is not going to make it a gospel truth.

That is not the main thrust of what I want to relay, but of course you're going to try and minimize my opinion. I would hope that you could be decent enough to engage with the larger issue that I am trying to raise here.

I would, in fact, would like to be educated on if there are other figure skaters in other parts of the world who have been caught doping. I really want to know.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I found a link to a story about the Biathlon athletes involved in the pre Sochi failed tests. It's not a pretty story but IMO it lends some credibility that not all Russian coaches were involved in doping and there were successful measures taken to address the issue in yet another event known for doping.

http://nytimes.com/2014/02/07/sport...-suspected-biathlete-was-doping.html?referer=

 

[eli60056]

That is not the main thrust of what I want to relay, but of course you're going to try and minimize my opinion. I would hope that you could be decent enough to engage with the larger issue that I am trying to raise here.

I would, in fact, would like to be educated on if there are other figure skaters in other parts of the world who have been caught doping. I really want to know.

But why do you say "of course"? I don't know you from Adam, so I have no desire to minimize your opinion, it is just that your logic is faulty, and you are making yourself miserable in the process, going so far that you can no longer enjoy figure skating, because all the time you will keep thinking the skaters are doping. It seems like you are running a self fulfilling prophecy on yourself.

As for the wider issue at hand, I already gave my opinion in an earlier post why I would not engage in unfounded speculation. It doesn't amuse me and I am a firm believer in "innocent until proven guilty" rule.

 

[hurrah]

As for the wider issue at hand, I already gave my opinion in an earlier post why I would not engage in unfounded speculation. It doesn't amuse me and I am a firm believer in "innocent until proven guilty" rule.

And do you have any opinion as to me accusing such blanket refusal to engage with this issue as something which more enables the pushers of dope on athletes?

There clearly is a doping problem in sports. It certainly pervades Russia and other national cultures. Besides national culture-based dope-pushing, I think there is global-economic-based dope-pushing, such as what we see in the case of American athletes.

I would like to know as much as possible about all the ins and outs, because public condemnation is probably the only thing that will change it. If it hadn't been for the ADR documentary, the WADA report wouldn't have come out.

 

[eli60056]

And do you have any opinion as to me accusing such blanket refusal to engage with this issue as something which more enables the pushers of dope on athletes?

There clearly is a doping problem in sports. It certainly pervades Russia and other national cultures. Besides national culture-based dope-pushing, I think there is global-economic-based dope-pushing, such as what we see in the case of American athletes.

I would like to know as much as possible about all the ins and outs, because public condemnation is probably the only thing that will change it. If it hadn't been for the ADR documentary, the WADA report wouldn't have come out.

I am sorry, but the bolded question is incomprehensible to me. You probably had one or more words in it unintentionally replaced with others.

I have nothing against public condemnation of proved offenders. Unfounded speculation on the other hand doesn't have any value whatsoever, preventative or otherwise, it will only harm the specific people you are speculating about.

 

[hurrah]

I am sorry, but the bolded question is incomprehensible to me. You probably had one or more words in it unintentionally replaced with others.

The sentence structure and grammar of the sentence is pristine.

 

[eli60056]

The sentence structure and grammar of the sentence is pristine.

If you say so.

Anyway, I already stated my opinion on the subject.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Hurrah's point is that they believe in raising speculation that Russian figure skaters are doping that they are increasing the likelihood in putting a stop to it.

Unfortunately I think it's out of our hands :hopelessness:

Until figure skaters and more importantly coaches of figure skaters are named it's just speculation from people and let's not forget that most accusations are coming from athletes who where caught and banned. It doesn't make it not true but they do potentially have motivation and have exhibited desceptive behavior themselves.

All we need are facts IMO.