A fair way to pick GPF finalists?

[tulosai]

:roll9:

And a regular GP event also includes some Junior GP events and throws in some synchronized skating for good measure? Hasn't someone in this thread calculated that adding even 2 skaters per discipline would already push the limits of a 24h day? (I'm not saying that I'm against this solution. I have also said that they should add a few spots. I'm just wondering if adding quite so many is actually practical)

There are also financial issues. Some posters continue, seemingly willfully at this point, not to understand that to add skaters means someone has to pay for it. It is the Spanish federation, as the host, who this responsibility traditionally falls on. If they are willing or even able to (surprise!) pay for 10-16 more skaters to attend the event is unclear. If they are not willing or able to, who is going to chip in to pay becomes the next question.

 

[qwerty]

Thoughts about using the SPs from TEB as final placements, but decide any score tiebreakers using only completed events? (so a TEB skater would have to use their other GP score in this scenario)?

 

[StitchMonkey]

There are also financial issues. Some posters continue, seemingly willfully at this point, not to understand that to add skaters means someone has to pay for it. It is the Spanish federation, as the host, who this responsibility traditionally falls on. If they are willing or even able to (surprise!) pay for 10-16 more skaters to attend the event is unclear. If they are not willing or able to, who is going to chip in to pay becomes the next question.

I don't think using the prize money that was intended for TEB to cover the costs is unreasonable. That seems like a compromise that should be on the table at least. Skaters get points, but not money and also a better shot at the final. Many likely would rather get to the GPF than the cash anyway. Yes I know skaters need money and all, but as has been said over and over, life is not fair. Points but no cash is better than no cash or points.

They may not declare a winner of TEB anyway, so the cash for it exist and is just one more thing we have to address.

 

[Pamigena]

Take a look at this GPF schedule and have a guess at how they might extend all the senior events by almost twice the original length:

http://www.isuresults.com/events/gpf2015_ColouredTimeSchedule.pdf

......magic? :roll9:

There are also financial issues. Some posters continue, seemingly willfully at this point, not to understand that to add skaters means someone has to pay for it.

I get that. And it's an important issue, I'm not even arguing against that. I just think that it would be easier to get some extra money compared to extra time. The day has 24 hours and that's it.

Although I suppose the competitions could run till 3 in the morning, and after one more round of magic zamboni the first practices of the day could start. The day has 24 hours, they might as well use them all.

 

[ice coverage]

The longer the meeting goes on, the more likely it is that they will come up with a complicated scheme and make me look foolish for going with the simple "short program = everything" method.

But it ain't over 'til it's over. :hpull: :hopelessness:

 

[StitchMonkey]

Take a look at this GPF schedule and have a guess at how they might extend all the senior events by almost twice the original length:

http://www.isuresults.com/events/gpf2015_ColouredTimeSchedule.pdf

They could sacrifice the exhibition.

 

[sabinfire]

But it ain't over 'til it's over. :hpull: :hopelessness:

And once the decision is finally made, it'll be all over but the crying (and heads exploding.)

 

[moriel]

And once the decision is finally made, it'll be all over but the crying (and heads exploding.)

Popcorn is already exploding, while ISU delays, i´m stocking it up =D

 

[moriel]

:roll9:

And a regular GP event also includes some Junior GP events and throws in some synchronized skating for good measure? Hasn't someone in this thread calculated that adding even 2 skaters per discipline would already push the limits of a 24h day? (I'm not saying that I'm against this solution. I have also said that they should add a few spots. I'm just wondering if adding quite so many is actually practical)

Well, imho
1. Adding just 2 skaters to each group is not suuuuuuch a burden. I think that will not include extra resurfacing etc, so while it is extra, yes, its not like we are doubling the skaters numbers or anything. As someone suggested, exibitions could be sacrificed or reduced.

2. Money - well, as this is also a fed thing, they could ask the big feds for some $$$ - after all, this is a decision that benefits many skaters from big feds, its fair that they would share the expenses, and not just dump it all on the spanish.

 

[el henry]

The longer the meeting goes on, the more likely it is that they will come up with a complicated scheme and make me look foolish for going with the simple "short program = everything" method.

Not foolish. Although I strongly support "just don't count it", I would prefer "just count the short" to some convoluted scheme.

Anything else makes the ISU look foolish, jaundiced and subject to back room politicking. Oh wait....

 

[tulosai]

I get that. And it's an important issue, I'm not even arguing against that. I just think that it would be easier to get some extra money compared to extra time. The day has 24 hours and that's it.

I do agree that the money theoretically could be found, and that certainly it would be easier to scrounge up the money than make a day be 36 hours instead of 24. Some posters actually have posted credible suggestions about how money could theoretically be found. The TEB prize money suggestion has its own issues but is not a bad idea. Having federations with skaters in the final split the costs pro rata also isn't a ridiculous idea. However, getting all the federations to actually agree about how this money is going to be found? Much much easier said than done. And the money that needs to be found even just to add 10 skaters (2 in each discipline including 2 pairs and dance couples) really isn't as inconsiderable as I think some people are imagining- probably when all is said and done you're looking at about $2000+ for each individual who is added. Is $20,000+ a crushing sum in the scheme of things? No, not really. But is it a large enough sum that it does present an actual problem? Yes, I think so.

 

[sabinfire]

They could sacrifice the exhibition.

Isn't that effectively extending another day of competition to the GPF? I'm sure the officials weren't expecting to work on Sunday.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

^ Cool.

Drawback: It gives more relative weight to the other event for TEB skaters than for others. Patrick's and Max's first place finishes are wighted by 75%, while Fernandez victory at Cup of China is weighted only by 50%.

Example: Skater A gets first in another event, 2nd in TEB. He ends up with 29 points.

Skater B gets first in one event, second in another. He ends up with 28 points.

Then this is how we expand the field. Take the top 6 from all skaters who did not compete in TEB. Then, extend the field to include TEB skaters whose placements calculated 0.5 x TEB + 1.5 x Other Event would have placed them in the top 6. This assures:

1) No one is excluded who would have otherwise qualified if all the top competitors bombed their TEB LP.
2) No one is included who didn't skate well enough in every competitive appearance (3 programs for TEB competitors, 4 programs for others).
3) TEB skaters are neither penalized nor helped by not being able to skate the LP; they are assessed only on what they did. No presumption is made about how they might have done in the LP.

 

[Pamigena]

However, getting all the federations to actually agree about how this money is going to be found? Much much easier said than done.

I didn't say it would be easy just slightly more likely to happen than changing the laws of the universe. (although if the last few days have taught me anything, it's how easily reality can be ignored)

 

[Pamigena]

Well, imho
1. Adding just 2 skaters to each group is not suuuuuuch a burden. I think that will not include extra resurfacing etc, so while it is extra, yes, its not like we are doubling the skaters numbers or anything. As someone suggested, exibitions could be sacrificed or reduced.

I'm admittedly too lazy to calculate it myself, but I found the other post:

Adding even 1 skater to the field at GPF for the men & ladies means an extra warm up group, which means longer competition time (roughly 10 minutes per skater) & an extra 40 minutes at least per discipline for practice. Slightly more room for dance & pairs because they already split the groups, but still adding a lot of extra time to the schedule. So under Moxiejean's idea, you would need about an extra 50 minutes per day for ladies, over an hour for men, potentially up to 2 hours for pairs, and 30-40 minutes for dance. Around 4 hours in total per day, and that's not accounting for the extra ice resurfacing that might be needed. But if you look at the schedule, the rink is already in use from 6 am every day to 10/10.30pm with barely any breaks. I don't see how they can add any more skaters.

 

[noskates]

I didn't say it would be easy just slightly more likely to happen than changing the laws of the universe. (although if the last few days have taught me anything, it's how easily reality can be ignored)

And that folks - sums it up!!! This decision isn't going to be fair to someone somewhere. It's going to cause another 50 pages of posts at GS and there will be happy people and mad people and curious people and disgusted people.............................and reality won't enter into it.

 

[Jaana]

Example: Skater A gets first in another event, 2nd in TEB. He ends up with 29 points.

Skater B gets first in one event, second in another. He ends up with 28 points.

I´d think that a skater with 28 points will be in GPF anyway? It´s those with around 22 points who will have problems.

 

[RobinA]

Count me in on using the short program scores as final scores.

Yes, maybe somebody could have changed their standing radically in the long. But that ain't happening. Yes, it isn't completely fair. Crap happens. Is it fair that somebody gets the flu on Olympic Long Program Eve? Is it fair that Ms Great Ladies Skater hits an ice bump as she's taking off for her final double axel and goes splat at the Olympics? No and No. It's the Grand Prix Final in a non-Olympic year we're talking about.

Hey, I'm a Patrick fan. My way has him missing the Final. He will live to skate again and it's not going to put that big a dent in his career. Or anybody else's. Use the short scores and let's move on.

 

[Mista Ekko]

Take a look at this GPF schedule and have a guess at how they might extend all the senior events by almost twice the original length:

http://www.isuresults.com/events/gpf2015_ColouredTimeSchedule.pdf

Haha exactly, All the disciplines will have 2 groups and Pairs will need 3 groups and an ice resurface

 

[Mathman]

Oh wait....

What I mostly fear is that somehow the ISU will come up with a plan that treats everyone else equally but manages to make it look like Patrick is getting special favorable treatment.

Poor guy.No matter what he does or doesn't do he ends up in the focus of an uncomfortable spotlight.