Elena Ilinykh & Ruslan Zhiganshin

[bramweld]

I can't find the link now, but there was an interesting interview with Gennadi Karponosov after GPF. It was basically saying that although B/S skated well, a 5th place finish is nothing to get excited about and that they haven't shown themselves to be the leading Russian team. He then said there were two other strong challengers, I/Z and S/K. After the GP series, it would have been easy for him to not mention I/Z, so I was pleased with that & I think it indicates the fed still hasn't decided who they are backing, and it will all come down to how everyone skates at Nationals.

Well, given how well I/Z skated at COR they are a quality team, full of character. B/S were scrupulously clean, but honestly to me their three best programs were Adagio, Chess and Crazy. This year I find that something is missing, I just don't know. Can a program be too clean?

 

[The Finn]

I can't find the link now, but there was an interesting interview with Gennadi Karponosov after GPF. It was basically saying that although B/S skated well, a 5th place finish is nothing to get excited about and that they haven't shown themselves to be the leading Russian team. He then said there were two other strong challengers, I/Z and S/K. After the GP series, it would have been easy for him to not mention I/Z, so I was pleased with that & I think it indicates the fed still hasn't decided who they are backing, and it will all come down to how everyone skates at Nationals.

I am pretty sure that even the GPF medalist has to deliver at the nationals if they want to go to the Euros. I am sure that Medvedeva and Stolbova/Klimov will go to the Euros even if they are not at TOP 3 at the Nationals but I don't think that is the case with the other GPF medalist and most definitely that is not the case with B/S.

I looks like a sure bet that Russia will send B/S, S/K and I/Z to the Euros but it will be most interesting to see who are the two teams that get to go to the Wordls. For me that battle is going to be one of highlights of the Euros.

 

[tvuckic16]

I saw what Karponosov said. He does have a point, I bet the Fed was expecting more, considering who BS are. More not just in placement but in scores. BS are 10 pts away from the Shibs. Surprising since BS are not a new team and they have a reputation as a team.

To have him say that BS got in just by luck and others (meaning IZ and SK) had stronger opponents is certainly an indication of their disappointment.

Unfortunately for Russia, I am nor sure any of their top three teams will move much further up than BS on the World stage. As of right now, 5th is the top that I would rank any of the Russian teams.

 

[bramweld]

I saw what Karponosov said. He does have a point, I bet the Fed was expecting more, considering who BS are. More not just in placement but in scores. BS are 10 pts away from the Shibs. Surprising since BS are not a new team and they have a reputation as a team.

To have him say that BS got in just by luck and others (meaning IZ and SK) had stronger opponents is certainly an indication of their disappointment.

Unfortunately for Russia, I am nor sure any of their top three teams will move much further up than BS on the World stage. As of right now, 5th is the top that I would rank any of the Russian teams.

With this I agree and disagree at the same time. I've come to appreciate one thing about the Russian Federation over the years. They lack the patience and poise required to groom top pairs for the COP system. Everything must be instant. Soloviev is still recovering from injury and it shows. What did they really expect? Their SD IMHO does not fit them and the FD lacks passion. Anna K. was all about that, so what gives? That is what she was looking for. That essential element was completely missing with her husband. I don't get any of that in their FD.

Why is it with all the great choreographers Russia has in house, their teams don't have the best material? Why is Gennady saying in public that Russian experts don't know how to choreograph for COP, shouldn't they be acquiring the skills to do so? Look on what Petr T. did for the Shibs and W/P? Half of what ails Russian ice dancing is their lack of foresight and their inability to manage their own resources.

The US had three respectable pairs in the GPF. There are a wealth of lessons to be learnt from that single fact.

 

[Marta25]

I can't find the link now, but there was an interesting interview with Gennadi Karponosov after GPF. It was basically saying that although B/S skated well, a 5th place finish is nothing to get excited about and that they haven't shown themselves to be the leading Russian team. He then said there were two other strong challengers, I/Z and S/K. After the GP series, it would have been easy for him to not mention I/Z, so I was pleased with that & I think it indicates the fed still hasn't decided who they are backing, and it will all come down to how everyone skates at Nationals.

It`s good to read that I/Z are still considered as contenders. I watched the Ice Dance competition live and was surprised that B/S`s PCS were pretty close to what I/Z received. Their PCS in the SD was only 0.5 above to what I/Z received in China and their PCS for their FD was even lower to I/Z`s PCS at CoC. I thought that the Russian Fed would push them more to at least be closer to the Shibs, but that didn`t happen. Ekaterina improved a lot her posture and I can`t remember a season where they had better programs, but the international judges still seem to struggle to warm up to them. Losing the SD to US #3 twice this season is also not a good sign and it makes me a little worried about gaining that third spot back. Anyway, Ice Dance is going to be insane at Nats and we can just hope that I/Z skate clean and with confidence.

 

[Alba]

With this I agree and disagree at the same time. I've come to appreciate one thing about the Russian Federation over the years. They lack the patience and poise required to groom top pairs for the COP system. Everything must be instant. Soloviev is still recovering from injury and it shows. What did they really expect? Their SD IMHO does not fit them and the FD lacks passion. Anna K. was all about that, so what gives? That is what she was looking for. That essential element was completely missing with her husband. I don't get any of that in their FD.

Why is it with all the great choreographers Russia has in house, their teams don't have the best material? Why is Gennady saying in public that Russian experts don't know how to choreograph for COP, shouldn't they be acquiring the skills to do so? Look on what Petr T. did for the Shibs and W/P? Half of what ails Russian ice dancing is their lack of foresight and their inability to manage their own resources.

I fully agree with this.

The US had three respectable pairs in the GPF. There are a wealth of lessons to be learnt from that single fact.

And they are all choached by russians!

That's how you end up when you are run by bears and the PR is more concentrated on the telenovelas.

 

[tvuckic16]

And they are all choached by russians!

That's how you end up when you are run by bears and the PR is more concentrated on the telenovelas.

I think HD are now coached by French Canadians in Montreal... Also, the americans, I got to give it to them, know how to give you creative freedom and allow you more or less to focus on the right things... Russians get lost in their intrigues ... Who could concentrate on work with that kind of 'work' environment... Also, the Russian work environment and mentality is not open to constructive criticism, they get defensive and the egos get in the way since they always think they know best and when they don't score well it is that the world is against them... rather than trying to see what it is they did wrong...

So yes, the coaches are Russian but they have been retrained to think american....

 

[Marta25]

I think HD are now coached by French Canadians in Montreal... Also, the americans, I got to give it to them, know how to give you creative freedom and allow you more or less to focus on the right things... Russians get lost in their intrigues ... Who could concentrate on work with that kind of 'work' environment... Also, the Russian work environment and mentality is not open to constructive criticism, they get defensive and the egos get in the way since they always think they know best and when they don't score well it is that the world is against them... rather than trying to see what it is they did wrong...

So yes, the coaches are Russian but they have been retrained to think american....

Hmm, I`m not sure about this. Kustarova let`s I/Z work with a lot of outside specialists like Najarro and Averbukh on choreo or she got the lift specialist that works with Shpilband`s group. I do think that the different training groups are too much focused on their rivalry between each other and ignore their international competitors. Especially the group around Svinin/Zhuk seems to be very aggressive in that regard.

Although H/D are now with Dubreuil/Lauzon, they both were coached for years by Russian coaches. Madison used to be coached by Yaroslava Nechaeva when she skated with her brother and after that they went to Krylova. Zach used to be coached by Zueva/Shpilband when he skated with Piper Gilles before he and Piper switched to Krylova.

 

[Alba]

I think HD are now coached by French Canadians in Montreal.

So yes, the coaches are Russian but they have been retrained to think american....

And it shows since they are snooze. But my point is it doesn't matter where they come from as long as you know how to manage people and work on a long term project. I don't think it's just an american thing but it certainly is true that Russians are lost in their intrigue. Maybe because they have a lot of internal competition, in general, and they are financed by the Fed? Boh...I don't know

 

[tvuckic16]

And it shows since they are snooze. But my point is it doesn't matter where they come from as long as you know how to manage people and work on a long term project. I don't think it's just an american thing but it certainly is true that Russians are lost in their intrigue. Maybe because they have a lot of internal competition, in general, and they are financed by the Fed? Boh...I don't know

I think you are right... and the key term here is "long-term" project... they do have a lot of internal competition which probably hinders them since in their system all these teams are supported by Fed money...

But, if I understood correctly, Karponosov thinks there is not enough internal competition??

If I get the gist of Karponosov's comments, he is going on numbers, he wants quantity and quality so if one team fails there is the seventh ranked team which could step up to the plate and medal. Does the Fed have the time and money these days for quality and quantity? I think not... just my opinion.

With the economy as it is, more is not always better, sometimes more is just more... they would be better off being happy with the 3 teams they have and doing everything they can to get them ready for the challenges ahead. In the absence of internal competition pushing you to be innovative and do better, the Fed needs to step up for some team-work... what? team-work, what an alien concept...

 

[bramweld]

I think HD are now coached by French Canadians in Montreal... Also, the americans, I got to give it to them, know how to give you creative freedom and allow you more or less to focus on the right things... Russians get lost in their intrigues ... Who could concentrate on work with that kind of 'work' environment... Also, the Russian work environment and mentality is not open to constructive criticism, they get defensive and the egos get in the way since they always think they know best and when they don't score well it is that the world is against them... rather than trying to see what it is they did wrong...

So yes, the coaches are Russian but they have been retrained to think american....

I don't know if this is fair judgement to make of all their dancers. Even Ilinykh has stated in the press how much she likes the American method of working. She even laughed at herself when told by a dance expert that she wasn't as well coordinated as she thought she was. I am sure there are some who do behave as you say, but things are a bit more complicated than that. What would be good is to have more Russian pairs getting the opportunity to work with other teams in other countries, if only for short training camps.

 

[bramweld]

I think you are right... and the key term here is "long-term" project... they do have a lot of internal competition which probably hinders them since in their system all these teams are supported by Fed money...

But, if I understood correctly, Karponosov thinks there is not enough internal competition??

If I get the gist of Karponosov's comments, he is going on numbers, he wants quantity and quality so if one team fails there is the seventh ranked team which could step up to the plate and medal. Does the Fed have the time and money these days for quality and quantity? I think not... just my opinion.

With the economy as it is, more is not always better, sometimes more is just more... they would be better off being happy with the 3 teams they have and doing everything they can to get them ready for the challenges ahead. In the absence of internal competition pushing you to be innovative and do better, the Fed needs to step up for some team-work... what? team-work, what an alien concept...

Agree!!! From your lips to God's ears. If they did that they would be unstoppable.

 

[Alba]

I think you are right... and the key term here is "long-term" project... they do have a lot of internal competition which probably hinders them since in their system all these teams are supported by Fed money...

But, if I understood correctly, Karponosov thinks there is not enough internal competition??

If I get the gist of Karponosov's comments, he is going on numbers, he wants quantity and quality so if one team fails there is the seventh ranked team which could step up to the plate and medal. Does the Fed have the time and money these days for quality and quantity? I think not... just my opinion.

With the economy as it is, more is not always better, sometimes more is just more... they would be better off being happy with the 3 teams they have and doing everything they can to get them ready for the challenges ahead. In the absence of internal competition pushing you to be innovative and do better, the Fed needs to step up for some team-work... what? team-work, what an alien concept...

I absolutely agree and I'm amazed that they are "sleeping" since 1999, I would say.

 

[tvuckic16]

I don't know if this is fair judgement to make of all their dancers. Even Ilinykh has stated in the press how much she likes the American method of working. She even laughed at herself when told by a dance expert that she wasn't as well coordinated as she thought she was. I am sure there are some who do behave as you say, but things are a bit more complicated than that. What would be good is to have more Russian pairs getting the opportunity to work with other teams in other countries, if only for short training camps.

I was thinking more of the coaches and the leadership than the dancers.

 

[bramweld]

I was thinking more of the coaches and the leadership than the dancers.

Okay, now I understand.

 

[MK's Winter]

Karponosov's comments are interesting. I agree that Russia is not using enough internal resources and they have some of the best in the world. His feelings on Brobova and Soloviev solidify a theory I have been thinking. Of course it depends on how the teams skate at Nationals, but he is thinking in an American way- or at least the Marina/Igor way- while I/Z and S/K train separately- they are exactly what Russia is looking for regarding a domestic rivalry. Not so much Virtue and Moir/Davis and White, but an Usova/Zhulin and Gritshuk/Platov and an era where Russian ice dance was at its prime. Both of those teams pushed from 92-94 until G/P came out on top and even then the storyline with K/O developed. I am someone on this fan thread who has been pretty clear about being over the I/K crap and fully embraced I/Z. As much as we all are, I don't think the fed is. Not so much in the respect that they want them back together but in the respect of the 3 teams I mentioned above- talent and a storyline. And I truly believe all 4 are are happy in their new partnerships but I think we would be lying a bit if the formers didn't drive the current even a just a little. How could it not as all 4 have something to prove. I/Z had much to prove last year- that they were not "leftovers" and are a worthy team and S/K, this year, that last year was a fluke and that they made the right decision. I grew up on 90's ice dance and Linichuk/Karponosov had major influence on that era. With clean skates I would not be surprised to see the following: I/Z, S/K, and B/S. The three will go to Euros and again if clean you will see I/K and S/K at Worlds. Any thoughts on this? I really think they are going to look at how far these 2 teams can push each other.

 

[bramweld]

You could be right, but you do mean I/Z and S/K going to worlds right? Do you think S/B could pull an upset? While I think they will always struggle with the SD I think their real strength is the FD.

 

[MK's Winter]

You could be right, but you do mean I/Z and S/K going to worlds right? Do you think S/B could pull an upset? While I think they will always struggle with the SD I think their real strength is the FD.

Yes, I think the World team will be I/Z and S/K. If you mean Stepanova and Bukin- they could upset Brobova and Soloviev but I think Stepanova is very weak in her basics and it shows. They are also a bit on the slow side.

 

[bramweld]

Yes, I think the World team will be I/Z and S/K. If you mean Stepanova and Bukin- they could upset Brobova and Soloviev but I think Stepanova is very weak in her basics and it shows. They are also a bit on the slow side.

Yes, but if the judges scored S/B higher than I/Z in the FD at NHK. What gives? ID is just such an unpredictable, political and subjective sport. You think you know what you're talking about and then wham.

It's nice though to hear G.Karp. talking about I/Z in a good light. It bodes well for their future.

 

[MK's Winter]

Yes, but if the judges scored S/B higher than I/Z in the FD at NHK. What gives? ID is just such an unpredictable, political and subjective sport. You think you know what you're talking about and then wham. It's nice though to hear G.Karp. talking about I/Z in a good light. It bodes well for their future.

I agree about Karponosov but you can never compare GP to GP, I'd have to really look at the panel and if you look at COC, I/Z had a much more difficult field, and the fact that they were severely underscored.