Japanese Nationals 2015-16 Mens fs

[4everchan]

i agree with CSG here that the mistakes are not just influencing PE but other components as well... hence why i am quoting your answer to him and your answer to my post....

for me there is no point comparing Yuzu's score with the others at this competition... do i believe he should have been scored less high? YES... do i believe he was not deserving to win.... NO WAY....

it's just sending the wrong message to give scores that are near perfect to someone's pretty much worst skate of the season in LP.

that's the point we are making.... where is the sport going if the PSC are handed so generously.... almost without a difference on whether or not a skater was flawless or not....

for me, 3% less than GPF would mean, a flawless skate with less flair.... maybe a minor mistake... but with two major mistakes and a few minor hickups, I'd expect 10 percent less, perhaps more....

that's what I am trying to convey here....

of course people say it's nationals... but it still has an influence on the ever growing PCS scores.... and how they are less and less meaningful in terms of an absolute numeral value but more in terms of ranking scale....

so that's all I have to say about this kuddos to the 3 podium boys! looking forward to seeing them again...

I applaud and welcome your reasoned arguments, made in terms of the actual PCS criteria.

I think you have some valid points - particularly "involvement" (and as per my earlier posts I actually thought there might be a case to be made).

However, I'm not convinced the impact of the other aspects you mentioned are that great, considering the program as a whole. The falls were not lengthy, and he was back on his feet, and back to speed very quickly - then right back into the choreography, and back in time with the music. Overall, I think he still maintained a very high level of Projection, Carriage, and Clarity.

What do you think his PE score should have been? He got 9.43 here, and 10.00 at GPF... and bearing in mind eg. Mura got 8.32 and Uno got 8.96.
And how much difference would it have made to his overal score?

Now you're talking.

I think you are focussing too heavily on the mistakes though, which were not that numerous or lengthy...

In terms of the overall program and performance, he still demonstrated very high SS, TR, PE, CH, IN outside of the falls ie. for the majority of the time. According to the criteria for each of those components. There is something to be said for a reduction in PCS (and I did say there may be a case for this, early on)... but given the quality of the program outside of the falls, I don't think any overscoring is so significant as to be called "egregious".

 

[evangeline]

It's essentially saying it doesn't matter how he skates, he is going to be rewarded with near perfect marks and his competitors shouldn't even bother.

That's basically more or less true though. Even if Hanyu sat on the ice for 4 minutes sticking his tongue out at the judges during the LP, he would've been crowned national champion and sent to Worlds (okay, maybe not crowned national champion but the JSF would 100% send him to Worlds over the likes of Mura or Tanaka). That's the reality of being the uncontested #1 in any country.

 

[Hanmgse]

Overscoring is natural, but rarely is it that egregious in Japanese nationals. That was completely unnecessary for them to prop up Hanyu's scores that significantly in the SP and FS. He would have still won.

It's essentially saying it doesn't matter how he skates, he is going to be rewarded with near perfect marks and his competitors shouldn't even bother.

I don't see it that egregious as you do, but what I think that matters is the final placements wich were correct. I don't think it says he will be rewarded of almost perfect marks no matter how he skates, because he hasn't (Cup of China though) and he obviously doesn't win always when he skates bad.

 

[YesWay]

for me, 3% less than GPF would mean, a flawless skate with less flair.... maybe a minor mistake... but with two major mistakes and a few minor hickups, I'd expect 10 percent less, perhaps more....

10%? You mean 9's become 8's, and 8's become 7's etc?

That doesn't ever happen though, does it?
A 10% PCS penalty for a couple of mistakes (mistakes that are already punished in TES)?

Which says to me, that is simply not how the system works - by intentional design, not because of overscoring in individual competitions?

Aren't you focussing too much on the couple of mistakes, and disregarding whatever good stuff the skater did for the rest of the time?

 

[alia jackson]

Hanyu really stoked some people isn't it. For a while there I thought Chan has changed nationality. Didn't see them making a fuss in Russian Nat, Spanish Nat or US Nat (10s was given 19 times in 2015 national).

They pounce when there is a chance. That's why I hope Yuzu retire by 2018. It is just not worth it.

 

[4everchan]

10%? You mean 9's become 8's, and 8's become 7's etc?

That doesn't ever happen though, does it?
A 10% PCS penalty for a couple of mistakes (mistakes that are already punished in TES)?

Which says to me, that is simply not how the system works - by intentional design, not because of overscoring in individual competitions?

Aren't you focussing too much on the couple of mistakes, and disregarding whatever good stuff the skater did for the rest of the time?

i am not focusing only on mistakes hence why I would mark PCS at the 85-86 range... a great skater, with a fantastic program which could earn him close to 100 when skated flawlessly but when there are major mistakes and a bunch of minor iffy things in the second half, why give close to 100???? make it real... just like in school...

85-86 is still a good old A ... does Hanyu deserve A + today?

I don't think so... and think about the public....the ones who know the sport very little... they understand even less why he would get such a high score.... the way PCS are handled right now is simply doing a bad reputation for the sport....

Gymnastics, diving, tumbling.... they penalize mistakes WAY harder.... is it needed nowadays? at one point, taking risks was encouraged to make the sport evolve... are we there yet, where it is pretty much at the top of possibilities for a human, where we now need to encourage flawless execution?

Do you think Yuzu himself agrees with his score, so close in PCS in the one he got at GPF despite a much better skate there?

I read a lot of comments in this thread like 'it wouldn't have changed a thing.... the ranking is correct" so then... why not be consequent? Give lower scores to everyone... reward only the TOP performances of the year with such high PCS scores....

 

[alia jackson]

Sharing from Yuzu thread the collision earlier at practice between Yuzu and Murakami

Just in case anyone here wants to see there's a gif on this blog of the collision with Dice. Sharing just in case anyone is in doubt that it wasn't a big deal. Both got up very quickly!

Time for a good long rest Yuzu!

 

[4everchan]

thanks for sharing

wow.. this is the third time in recent years Yuzu gets into another skater…. Chan, Han, Dice…. let's hope he manages to stay far from others… wouldn't want anyone injured ouch…

Sharing from Yuzu thread the collision earlier at practice between Yuzu and Murakami

 

[Maria Victoria]

wow.. this is the third time in recent years Yuzu gets into another skater…. Chan, Han, Dice…. let's hope he manages to stay far from others… wouldn't want anyone injured ouch…

I don't think you can ascribe blame to Yuzuru for those incidents you cited as they were all clearly accidental. You seem to imply he is a source of physical danger to his fellow skaters.

 

[alia jackson]

There see! How 4everchan will turn it on Yuzu similar to how she did on his words (in the Chan/Yuzu thread). No light will shine in one hearts when everything is turn into a negative.

 

[4everchan]

I don't think you can ascribe blame to Yuzuru for those incidents you cited as they were all clearly accidental. You seem to imply he is a source of physical danger to his fellow skaters.

i am not blaming Yuzu… totally not… I am just noticing that it has happened to him a lot recently…. and that perhaps, there is a need to be more careful ? NEVER would I think that ANYONE would do this on purpose…. it's so dangerous. COME ON!

There see! How 4everchan will turn it on Yuzu similar to how she did on his words (in the Chan/Yuzu thread). No light will shine in one hearts when everything is turn into a negative.

Alia, I think you are being unfair. I adore YUZU and wish him best at all times. It's not because I like Patrick that I don't like other skaters. I love FIGURE SKATING… which includes MANY SKATERS and I have NOT belittled YUZU at all, even here, it's the judging I find a bit exaggerated. I am happy Yuzu won…

 

[xibsuarz]

thanks for sharing

wow.. this is the third time in recent years Yuzu gets into another skater…. Chan, Han, Dice…. let's hope he manages to stay far from others… wouldn't want anyone injured ouch…

Thankfully it wasn't serious this time around

 

[4everchan]

Thankfully. I was so scared at COC last year.

Thankfully it wasn't serious this time around

 

[alia jackson]

Sure 4everchan, I'm learning from your way with words

Now isn't Yuzu 4T-3T gorgeous

 

[Maria Victoria]

i am not blaming Yuzu… totally not… I am just noticing that it has happened to him a lot recently…. and that perhaps, there is a need to be more careful ? NEVER would I think that ANYONE would do this on purpose…. it's so dangerous. COME ON!


…

Then why not say so instead of "let's hope he manages to stay far from others...wouldn't want anyone injured" that can be easily misconstrued considering your avowed intent? I think you can as you are obviously articulate.

 

[4everchan]

Then why not say so instead of "let's hope he manages to stay far from others...wouldn't want anyone injured" that can be easily misconstrued considering your avowed intent? I think you can as you are obviously articulate.

Maria, I did read my post again, and I still fail to see why you turned it around to make it sound like I have ill intentions.

If someone has had a few car accidents, it's totally something one would say… I hope he manages to avoid another crash, wouldn't want anyone injured… That's how I would say it… and I am sure there are better ways to say it, but ascribing ill-intentions to those words is … erm… perhaps ill-intentioned.

 

[Maria Victoria]

Maria, I did read my post again, and I still fail to see why you turned it around to make it sound like I have ill intentions.

If someone has had a few car accidents, it's totally something one would say… I hope he manages to avoid another crash, wouldn't want anyone injured… That's how I would say it… and I am sure there are better ways to say it, but ascribing ill-intentions to those words is … erm… perhaps ill-intentioned.

Ok I will take your word for it.

 

[Silvia451]

Overscoring at nationals? Kovtun got 10s

Yuzu should have won anyway so why bother? Let's say he would have had 6 falls and finished behind Mura. Would it be fair in your opinion to leave at home the one who crashed 6 world records this season and has the best time of his career so far? You can't look only at one competition of the season which is at the end of the year, not a long time after the GPF. He was very tired. The same for Shoma. It doesn't mean they are not by far the best Japanese skaters right now.
Remember Machida was chosen for worlds last season, even after the disaster from GPF and nationals. And I think that were many of us happy with the JSF choice.

If Mura had skated better last year, there would have been 3 spots for Japan this year and he would have been in the team.

 

[Marin]

Dear Chan fans who finally got a little opportunity to say something negative about Yuzuru, I will wait patiently for Canadian nationals and will continue discussion after Chan's scores

 

[ysy94]

PC, I knew that was you! I'm sorry for the last time Yuzu hurt you by his blade! I though it was just a small scratch...
Anyway, could you explain me "general accepted" rule and "I believe" rule mean? Can you point me in generally any law, any rule, any constitution iin anywhere (except in dictatorial/absolute monarchical country) that punish 2 or more times in the same error, same crime?
You know why? Because it's the basic foundation of today's society

Dear Chan fans who finally got a little opportunity to say something negative about Yuzuru, I will wait patiently for Canadian nationals and will continue discussion after Chan's scores

I hope I dont get old before we finish all Canada National Champion discussion...