Japanese Nationals 2015-16 Mens fs

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

LOL

You've made no case to justify your claims, and you aren't listening to anyone but yourself.

Giving up now. Finally.

You've made no case to justify you claim that Technical errors is absolutely distinct from PCS.

I should have disregarded anything you said after claiming "well the falls weren't disruptive" and that they shouldn't affect the scoring of the overall impression/interpretation/execution of the program. Which is the silliest rhetoric there is.

 

[YesWay]

You've made no case to justify you claim that Technical errors is absolutely distinct from PCS.

I don't have to make a case - because it's right there in the rules.

Falls and other errors, and their penalties, are explicitly listed in the TES documentation.
No consequences are listed for them in the PCS documents, they are not mentioned in the PCS criteria at all.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

What's with your obsession that clean skate = be all and end all for PCS? That's just fueling the clean-bonus PCS that we see so often in competitions and which I personally think is ridiculous.
For their clean skates, I'd personally give Evgenia 66-68 PCS (and I love her... but I love her potential). 69 if I want to be generous. So 77 is 11 to 9 points "inflated" IMO.
I'd personally also give Kovtun 85-86 (87 if I want to be generous) PCS for his clean skate... So 93 is 8-6 points "inflated" IMO.
I'd also personally give Hanyu 89-91 for the skate in question (92 if I want to be generous)... So 96 is 7-5 points "inflated" IMO for that particular performance.

So again, what do you mean by "at least XXX PCS was for a clean skate"?

A clean skate isn't the be all and end all for high PCS but a skate with multiple major errors should be an end all for near-perfect marks.

And I agree with all the PCS you've suggested, and said that 90-92 would have been fine for Hanyu's FS.

A clean skate shouldn't get a "bonus" - I actually disagree with judges continually increasing PCS as a reward for continuous clean competitions because often the actual skating doesn't improve. If you ask me, Hanyu didn't really perform a ton better at the GPF than NHK, but due to this trend (and that GPF judging was early Christmas "let's give all the PCS points!" scoring for many skaters), the PCS was even higher than at NHK. Which "justified" a 96 PCS for Nationals SP/FS with major errors.

 

[yuki]

Ah I see. So overscoring and bad judging is only worth scrutinizing/criticizing when it affects results/placements. Got it.

And Alia I wasn't singling out Japanese nationals... I was saying how - compare to other countries -they keep their skaters' PCS at bay even at Nationals - but this particular instance was a horrible case of judging.

Wrong. The word horrible should be reserved for judging that actually affects final placements (see Patrick at Worlds 2012 & 2013 for good examples) and not just overly generous PCS that don't have any effect on the standings. I don't see you being nearly as vocal about those cases, though. I'm assuming that the overscoring is terrible only when you don't like the skater in question.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I don't have to make a case - because it's right there in the rules.

Falls and other errors, and their penalties, are explicitly listed in the TES documentation.
No consequences are listed for them in the PCS documents, they are not mentioned in the PCS criteria at all.

So you believe that no matter how many times a skater falls on their jumps, if everything else remains the same, their PCS should not be diminished. And we've all explained exactly how falls should be detrimental to each of the PCS components by their very nature. Oh well, we'll agree to disagree.

And I maybe blowing hot air to you but the vast majority of people agree with me and have said here that the PcS is too high for that many errors. If you want to keep saying falls shouldn't affect PCS then keep doing so, but the reality is, the standard is that it does - which is why people are justifiably outraged by PCS scores like Hanyu at CoC or Chan st 2013 Worlds.

 

[AprilS]

A clean skate isn't the be all and end all for high PCS but a skate with multiple major errors should be an end all for near-perfect marks.

And I agree with all the PCS you've suggested, and said that 90-92 would have been fine for Hanyu's FS.

A clean skate shouldn't get a "bonus" - I actually disagree with judges continually increasing PCS as a reward for continuous clean competitions because often the actual skating doesn't improve. If you ask me, Hanyu didn't really perform a ton better at the GPF than NHK, but due to this trend (and that GPF judging was early Christmas "let's give all the PCS points!" scoring for many skaters), the PCS was even higher than at NHK. Which "justified" a 96 PCS for Nationals SP/FS with major errors.

Ok, awesome, we agree on this.
So why are you like, "at least so-and-so got xx marks for a clean skate" and at the same time posting pages and pages arguing less inflation (points-wise) for a non-clean skate? I will repeat because this is the main point of my most: They were both inflated. One clean. One not clean. But both inflated, the non clean one arguably less so. But you only seem to care about the latter.
Whether you intend it to come across as such or not, reading your posts from across a computer monitor, it smacks of bias and I think that could be one of the things getting some people (and maybe even me to an extent) riled up.

 

[YesWay]

So you believe that no matter how many times a skater falls on their jumps, if everything else remains the same, their PCS should not be diminished. And we've all explained exactly how falls should be detrimental to each of the PCS components by their very nature. Oh well, we'll agree to disagree.

Once more, it is not what about what I "believe".

It's about what the rules are, and whether they applied appropriately and consistently.

I have never said "no matter how many falls", that's another little invention of yours. (Oh! Is that what you were hoping I would say, in response to your "8 falls" scenario? Sorry to disappoint). I've actually described when and how falls could affect PCS, and that it has to be evaluated case by case. But that little/no impact in this case is justifiable.

And I maybe blowing hot air to you but the vast majority of people agree with me and have said here that the PcS is too high for that many errors. If you want to keep saying falls shouldn't affect PCS then keep doing so, but the reality is, the standard is that it does - which is why people are justifiably outraged by PCS scores like Hanyu at CoC or Chan st 2013 Worlds.

Yup. That is indeed, all unsubstantiated hot air.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

Scores aren't important, since everyone knows that Russian Nats PCS is ridiculous (eg, Plushenko getting 95 PCS) the performance and placements is what counts.

Ah I see. So overscoring and bad judging is only worth scrutinizing/criticizing when it affects results/placements. Got it.

And according to you criticizing scores is only worth it if "the scoring of an event isn't known to be ridiculous before"? I'd say the dependence on affecting placements makes a lot more sense

In a lame attempt to talk about anything else... anyone else besides me missing Mura's old costume? Hey, I'm taking "so bad it's funny" over just "bad" any day... just me? Okay

 

[AprilS]

And according to you criticizing scores is only worth it if "the scoring of an event isn't known to be ridiculous before"? I'd say the dependence on affecting placements makes a lot more sense

In a lame attempt to talk about anything else... anyone else besides me missing Mura's old costume? Hey, I'm taking "so bad it's funny" over just "bad" any day... just me? Okay

I actually kinda like Mura's new costume? And yes, I do miss his old one. Some costumes make me :shocked: but his old one just make me :agree:

 

[YesWay]

In a lame attempt to talk about anything else... anyone else besides me missing Mura's old costume? Hey, I'm taking "so bad it's funny" over just "bad" any day... just me? Okay

Now that you mention it... I do miss it in a bizarre kind of way. It was morbidly fascinating, and quite the talking point...

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Wrong. The word horrible should be reserved for judging that actually affects final placements (see Patrick at Worlds 2012 & 2013 for good examples) and not just overly generous PCS that don't have any effect on the standings. I don't see you being nearly as vocal about those cases, though. I'm assuming that the overscoring is terrible only when you don't like the skater in question.

Not to sound like a broken record but overscoring is horrible in every scenario for every skater whether it affects placements/results or not.

Do you think it would have been appropriate to award Hanyu 100 PCS for that FS because he was going to win regardless of if he scored 90 PCS or 100?

The issue is that people are comparing his previous scores as a justification for this scoring but the question I would ask is:

Never mind what Hanyu has done previously at NHK/GPF, never mind what his competitors did, never mind that he is even Hanyu... If a skater skated that program, and you had never seen them or that program before, would a judge be justified in giving that program 95% worth of program components?

Because the narrative seems to be justifying that score because of the scores he's got for 2 preceding clean competitions not for what he actually put out there on the ice.

Skaters need to be ideally judged absolutely and no judge in their right mind would have given 9.5's across the board if they were seeing that program and Hanyu for the first time, which is how they should be judging it.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

And according to you criticizing scores is only worth it if "the scoring of an event isn't known to be ridiculous before"? I'd say the dependence on affecting placements makes a lot more sense

In a lame attempt to talk about anything else... anyone else besides me missing Mura's old costume? Hey, I'm taking "so bad it's funny" over just "bad" any day... just me? Okay

What are you talking about? I criticize scoring all the time. For various events for various skaters from Hanyu to Chan to Plu to Mao to V/T to D/R. I love Hanyu's skating and think the world of him but I also don't deify him and think he shouldnt be held to the same standard of judging as every other skater out there.

I can guarantee you if it was Chan who scored 96 PCS with that many errors people would be flaying him for it (as they should in that scenario), and nobody would be trying to defend it by saying "oh well it's not that bad compared to his maximum scoring potential".

 

[AprilS]

Not to sound like a broken record but overscoring is horrible in every scenario for every skater whether it affects placements/results or not.

Do you think it would have been appropriate to award Hanyu 100 PCS for that FS because he was going to win regardless of if he scored 90 PCS or 100?

The issue is that people are comparing his previous scores as a justification for this scoring but the question I would ask is:

Never mind what Hanyu has done previously at NHK/GPF, never mind what his competitors did, never mind that he is even Hanyu... If a skater skated that program, and you had never seen them or that program before, would a judge be justified in giving that program 95% worth of program components?

Because the narrative seems to be justifying that score because of the scores he's got for 2 preceding clean competitions not for what he actually put out there on the ice.

Skaters need to be ideally judged absolutely and no judge in their right mind would have given 9.5's across the board if they were seeing that program and Hanyu for the first time, which is how they should be judging it.

That's one narrative, and not even the major one from what I've read on this thread. The MAJOR narrative on this thread (other than your's, of course) seems to be that:
1. nationals is always inflated. This has been the case for japanese nationals in the past, present, and most likely future. Where CSG gets these expectations that JP nats should be held to a higher standard than other nationals/a paradigm of impartiality is a bit of a ??? point.
2. Hanyu was over-scored. But not "horribly" so.
3. Hanyu deserved to win.
4. People wonder why CSG is pouncing on Hanyu's scores and no one else's this weekend.

 

[Mrs. P]

I've posted my question regarding falls impact on PCS here: http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?57961-Falls-impact-on-PCS

If you guys would, please head on over to that thread to discuss falls impact on PCS and let others talk about other aspects of the Japanese Nationals free skate.

 

[AprilS]

What are you talking about? I criticize scoring all the time. For various events for various skaters from Hanyu to Chan to Plu to Mao to V/T to D/R. I love Hanyu's skating and think the world of him but I also don't deify him and think he shouldnt be held to the same standard of judging as every other skater out there.

The issue with the quotes Li'Kitsu pulled out isn't that you weren't criticizing scoring (well, it kind of was, I guess), but that your two posts quoted there contradict themselves - one in "favor" of one nationals, and the other in "disfavor" of another nationals. Do you criticize ALL sketchy scoring? Maybe you do. Maybe you think you do. Maybe some others think you do and some others don't. I am of the mind that you do not. It was not pulled out as questioning your ability to criticize scores, but as an example of bias.

I can guarantee you if it was Chan who scored 96 PCS with that many errors people would be flaying him for it (as they should in that scenario), and nobody would be trying to defend it by saying "oh well it's not that bad compared to his maximum scoring potential".

But would YOU be "flaying" him for it? And maybe you would be. Again, it is a quesiton of your impartiality.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

I actually kinda like Mura's new costume? And yes, I do miss his old one. Some costumes make me :shocked: but his old one just make me :agree:

Now that you mention it... I do miss it in a bizarre kind of way. It was morbidly fascinating, and quite the talking point...

Yeah, Bird Mura supporters!

And I'll flat out admit it was kinda funny not seeing Yuzuru lead the "What is that costume?!"-discussions

 

[AprilS]

Yeah, Bird Mura supporters!

And I'll flat out admit it was kinda funny not seeing Yuzuru lead the "What is that costume?!"-discussions

Lettuce. Never forget.

 

[matmuh]

Lettuce. Never forget.

No worries, he never lets us forget

 

[AprilS]

No worries, he never lets us forget

On the topic of other guys at this comp, what did people think of Shoma's emergency quad attempt? When I heard that I was like, :eeking: If he misses his quad at worlds, will he go for it as his last jump again??

 

[Li'Kitsu]

But the Lettuce only comes out during real spotlight (meaning in Galas), it's too extravagant for boring competitions.

And I actually think Yuzu had worse (as did Mura now)