State of Russian Men's Figure Skating 2015-2016

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I never said plushenko could beat Fernandez. That's irrelevent. You are comparing plushenkos best Scores to Fernandez? Why? That's like if I said plushenko would've won this year. I said kovtun only contends for silver. He does only contend for silver he is not automatic silver. He is closer to not medaling than winning. Why is that worthy of so much russian federation support?

Because he is their number 1 guy. He is the only one to have won GP events. He's had the highest World placement by far compared to any other Russian man in the past 5 years. He's the only Russian skater to attempt 5 quads - more than any Russian man in history, is one of only 2 Russian men doing different quads, and regularly lands them, not to mention very few men in the world currently do at least two types of quads. He's one of the only skaters to have beaten both Plushenko and Hanyu. He's won medals in 5/6 Grand Prix events. And he's ranked in the top 5 in the World. And as much as you wanna protest then, he's also won the past 3 Russian titles in a row. That's why they throw their support behind him. They understand that people need to rally behind *somebody* and of all the current Russian men, Kovtun (while no threat to the top dogs) is the best they have. Why do they throw so much support behind Kovtun? To put it frankly, because they currently have nobody who's performing or achieving better that they can throw their support behind.

And it's not irrelevant that Plushenko wouldn't have beaten Fernandez in the past 4 Euros, because the whole basis of your argument against Kovtun is that Kovtun can't contend for Euros gold, and carry on a legacy of Russian skaters at Euros/World's and thus isn't worthy of the Russian fed's support... When the most decorated Russian man ever, Plushenko, himself wouldn't have won the past 4 Euros or won a medal in the past 2 Worlds even with his best score ever achieved.

 

[silverlake22]

Kovtun can only contend for euro silver which he sometimes doesn't even win or be doesn't medal like in 2014. Jenalso only contends for worlds top 10. There is no reason for him to be guaranteed national title. Voronov winning in 2015 and kolyada winning in 2016 still means kovtun goes to worlds. Kovtun just doesnt contend for anything that's meaningful if you look at the big picture of the history of Russian men so why hold him up?

There's a good chance Kolyada can surpass Kovtun in the near future anyways. He has more going for him than Kovtun IMO. Kovtun has the hard tech but his jumps in and of themselves aren't that nice and his consistency is touch and go. Kolyada has beautiful jumps, spins, and steps and is working on adding 4s and 4lo in the future. He has a deficit to Kovtun in PCS for now since he's not well known, but if he continues to skate well in international events his PCS will start going up. I think Kovtun's PCS started going up when he was skating consistently well and was clearly the #1 Russian man. Recently, he hasn't been as consistent and his advantage over the other Russian guys doesn't seem as large.

Basically, I don't think Kovtun is that held up as is and I think his PCS buffer against his fellow countrymen will probably shrink in coming seasons. Kovtun is simply someone you can't count out because he does have the technical content to contend with the top guys in the World and he can sometimes deliver 2 strong programs in competition. Clearly, he is no match for Yuzu, Javi, or an on-form Chan or Ten and will not get marks comparable to those guys even if he skates well. With more new talents coming through the ranks, my guess is he's more likely to be in the bottom half of the top 10 at Worlds this season as opposed to the top 10.

 

[plushyfan]

Because he is their number 1 guy. He is the only one to have won GP events. He's had the highest World placement by far compared to any other Russian man in the past 5 years. He's the only Russian skater to attempt 5 quads - more than any Russian man in history, is one of only 2 Russian men doing different quads, and regularly lands them, not to mention very few men in the world currently do at least two types of quads. He's one of the only skaters to have beaten both Plushenko and Hanyu. He's won medals in 5/6 Grand Prix events. And he's ranked in the top 5 in the World. And as much as you wanna protest then, he's also won the past 3 Russian titles in a row. That's why they throw their support behind him. They understand that people need to rally behind *somebody* and of all the current Russian men, Kovtun (while no threat to the top dogs) is the best they have. Why do they throw so much support behind Kovtun? To put it frankly, because they currently have nobody who's performing or achieving better that they can throw their support behind.

And it's not irrelevant that Plushenko wouldn't have beaten Fernandez in the past 4 Euros, because the whole basis of your argument against Kovtun is that Kovtun can't contend for Euros gold, and carry on a legacy of Russian skaters at Euros/World's and thus isn't worthy of the Russian fed's support... When the most decorated Russian man ever, Plushenko, himself wouldn't have won the past 4 Euros or won a medal in the past 2 Worlds even with his best score ever achieved.

Are you serious? Do you want to compere Plushenko's marks to Fernandez and Kovtun's ?????
Plushenko is 33 now. When he lost to Kovtun Plushenko( 31 y.o) was after a formidable unprecedented surgery for a skater. And that surgery really hampered his preparation.
Yes, he never landed in two quads in SP and three quads in FS. But he landed in 4-3 combo in SP many times and he landed in 4-3-2 or 4-3-3 combo plus a single quad, 3A combination if he needed. And those were perfect! Big difference! If he had to do two or three quads he would have done. But because he was miles from the other skaters( after Yagudin's retirement) one quad combo was enough.
He landed in 4L in practice this is well known story, he tried it one time on competition but he fell. But no one pushed him to do it. He landed in 4S in competition in Samara maybe on Russian Cup 2004. I can check it if you want. (And I think this is a good attemt on testskate in September 2012. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7unAy2WY_s&t=1m50s )
But I say again no one pushed him on competition in his peak time. In that time he knows everything what he needed. And even more. He didn't use his all skills in his programs. He was pefect many times no one comes close to number of his 6.0s. M. Kwan did not have so many as him!
When he received his personal best ( ECH 2012) he was injured, he didn't land in quad in SP, but landed in it in LP, after a painkiller injection.You can calculate.
The requirements have changed a lot. He said some weeks ago his favorite is Yuzuru Hanyu, he is the new generation, he pushes the FS forward. Yuzuru is better than he was. But he is very proud of him.
I really believe if Plushenko would compete now, he would be as good as the other guys, because he is a hard-worker, adores the FS, and he has nerves of steel.
If you miss this video I recommend you. In it you can see Plushenko's soul if you want. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVGRZLmIEIw
Plushenko is a superstar in FS, and you can criticise him for....everything what you want, but he can full fill an arena, the people want to see him on his own shows or as a guest star. In one year he had/will have 100 shows in the whole world.
In this time this is his greatest happiness. https://www.instagram.com/p/BBfywwKGyxl/?taken-by=plushenkoofficial

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Sorry, plushyfan... I know you're a fan of Plushenko, but there's absolutely no way Plushenko would be as good as the other guys right now. And if Lambiel had a more consistent 3A, and Buttle had a consistent 4T, Plushenko wouldn't have been as good as them too. The most amazing thing about him, to me, isn't his programs, but his jumping ability and consistency. Figure skating is a sport first and foremost, and he thoroughly deserves his wins given that he performed the hardest jumps, while his competitors (even ones more artistic or with better choreography/transitions/programs than him -- as evidenced by PCS marks in Vancouver 2010) never had his jumping consistency. His formula was essentially, reel off the quad(s), reel off the 3As, end with an energetic footwork, and assuming you've done everything cleanly, you'll win because no other guy can match you technically. Unfortunately, this seems to have bled into the mentality of the Russian men with such a focus on jumps and the artistry being secondary -- the problems being a) no Russian man has the jumping consistency of Plushenko, b) no Russian man has the reputation/track record of Plushenko where they can afford to make errors but still get top-level PCS, c) no current Russian man has his starpower and command of the ice, and d) the field the current Russian men have to face with Hanyu/Fernandez/Chan/Ten(when he's on)/Uno is a lot harder to deal with than the hugely inconsistent competition that faced Plushenko (other than Yagudin, of course).

Uno is a great example of the TES/PCS balancing act, and what the Russian federation SHOULD be trying to instill in their men. A development of basics, and edges, and speed/flow, and good artistry... not just emphasizing great jumping which, let's be honest, is the "legacy" of Russian men's skating (save for balanced skaters like Kulik and Yagudin). So when the time comes, if you reel off the jumps cleanly, then you will get high PCS to go with your TES, and rise as quickly as Uno has (even with "just" one type of quad). If Uno were a Russian man, he'd probably have the jumps, but the quality of his skating would NOT be at the level that it is now. I see a lot of potential in Kolyada in that he seems to be paying attention to not just the jumps. Pitkeev was also that way for me, but his GP performances this year clearly put a focus on the elements. Kovtun started that way (artistically promising), but in an effort to upgrade and keep up technically he's lost the artistic qualities that he's had in the past (e.g. his flamenco SP, compared to his SP this year, was sooo much better).

And the reason I was comparing Plu's marks to Fernandez's was because gmyers was slamming Kovtun for being unable to contend for the Euros gold, and was pointing out that even the best Russian in the past decade, Plushenko, at his very best (i.e. his personal best) would not have been able to defeat Javier in the past 4 European championships, so it's not exactly fair to hold it against Kovtun for not beating Javier in any of those competitions.

 

[plushyfan]

the whole post

Sorry, CSG! But Plushy had the highest PCS many times when the IJS was introduced.

http://www.isuresults.com/results/owg2006/SEG002.HTM - Torino. Plushy beat Jeffry with 4 points and with 8 points Lambiel in PCS

http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpf0405/GPF0405_Men_FS_Scores.pdf 2005 GPF final . Again.. 7 points

http://www.isuresults.com/results/ec2005/ec05_Men_FS_scores.pdf ECH 2005 He was ahead of Lambiel 7 points.

http://www.isuresults.com/results/ec2006/ec2006_Men_FS_scores.pdf ECH 2006 the gap is 6 points

http://library.la84.org/6oic/OfficialReports/2010/Results/FS_Results_Book.pdf - Vancouver. Plushenko lost to Lambiel in PCS because of the TR's marks.. And he wasn't the favorite....

What are you talking about CSG?????


Maybe you don't understand me if Plushenko had grown up in this system, he knows everything as the young guys. He is a hard worker, and he wanted to be the best and wanted to be the winner all the time.

 

[gmyers]

Because he is their number 1 guy. He is the only one to have won GP events. He's had the highest World placement by far compared to any other Russian man in the past 5 years. He's the only Russian skater to attempt 5 quads - more than any Russian man in history, is one of only 2 Russian men doing different quads, and regularly lands them, not to mention very few men in the world currently do at least two types of quads. He's one of the only skaters to have beaten both Plushenko and Hanyu. He's won medals in 5/6 Grand Prix events. And he's ranked in the top 5 in the World. And as much as you wanna protest then, he's also won the past 3 Russian titles in a row. That's why they throw their support behind him. They understand that people need to rally behind *somebody* and of all the current Russian men, Kovtun (while no threat to the top dogs) is the best they have. Why do they throw so much support behind Kovtun? To put it frankly, because they currently have nobody who's performing or achieving better that they can throw their support behind.

And it's not irrelevant that Plushenko wouldn't have beaten Fernandez in the past 4 Euros, because the whole basis of your argument against Kovtun is that Kovtun can't contend for Euros gold, and carry on a legacy of Russian skaters at Euros/World's and thus isn't worthy of the Russian fed's support... When the most decorated Russian man ever, Plushenko, himself wouldn't have won the past 4 Euros or won a medal in the past 2 Worlds even with his best score ever achieved.

Kovtun does have a bunch of medals. That's undeniable but he also provides a negative image for of russian skaters as no one can beat him even when they obviously should like kolyada and voronov.

I'm sorry this makes no sense. Plushenko can't beat Fernandez so kovtun must be held up given titles over kolyada and voronov. You say plushenko got high pcs as a jump bonus and no one ever thought he had a good program or choreo. That's wrong. Plushenko has najinski, Carmen and more. Kovtun has no najinskis or Carmen's or any famous program at all. People do watch and judges gave plushenko high marks for his programs. No matter your opinion plushenko always got great pcs and near the highest. Kovtun does not. He does not get Fernandez ten chan pcs. Plushenko did get that. Even if you say his programs are horrible he was an amazing performer. There was a focus on jumps of course but not all on jumps. With kovtun there is never an attempt at performance. With plushenko there was always attempt at performance.

Base on your description of plushenkos formula I am going to say you have never seen any of plushenkos programs.

There's a good chance Kolyada can surpass Kovtun in the near future anyways. He has more going for him than Kovtun IMO. Kovtun has the hard tech but his jumps in and of themselves aren't that nice and his consistency is touch and go. Kolyada has beautiful jumps, spins, and steps and is working on adding 4s and 4lo in the future. He has a deficit to Kovtun in PCS for now since he's not well known, but if he continues to skate well in international events his PCS will start going up. I think Kovtun's PCS started going up when he was skating consistently well and was clearly the #1 Russian man. Recently, he hasn't been as consistent and his advantage over the other Russian guys doesn't seem as large.

Basically, I don't think Kovtun is that held up as is and I think his PCS buffer against his fellow countrymen will probably shrink in coming seasons. Kovtun is simply someone you can't count out because he does have the technical content to contend with the top guys in the World and he can sometimes deliver 2 strong programs in competition. Clearly, he is no match for Yuzu, Javi, or an on-form Chan or Ten and will not get marks comparable to those guys even if he skates well. With more new talents coming through the ranks, my guess is he's more likely to be in the bottom half of the top 10 at Worlds this season as opposed to the top 10.

Its because kovtun is no match for any of them that he should not get a free pass like he does at nationals. Russia should be focused on beating Fernandez and hanyu not supporting kovtun who could never because there won't be a fluke collision every time and his overwhelming opposition to performance and choreo. Kolyada already should have beaten kovtun.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

He does not get Fernandez ten chan pcs. Plushenko did get that.

Fernandez's personal best PCS: 46.96 (SP) & 96.78(FS)
Ten's personal best PCS: 44.75 & 91.40
Chan's personal best PCS: 47.18 & 96.50
Plushenko's personal best PCS: 42.50 & 88.84

Okay there. :sarcasm:

 

[plushyfan]

To CSG!

Two opinions about Plushenko, two world famous ballet dancers. It seems the judges had similar opinion when they gave high second marks for Plushy:

Roberto Bolle( prime dancer from La Scalain Milan one of the greatest dancers today):http://archiviostorico.gazzetta.it/...Plushenko_per_piroette__ga_10_060218181.shtml

3 parts of the Italian interview:

- "Apart from the competition, that was very exciting, is not just the quality of exercise that excite me. His real strength comes from charisma, personality, by the presence on ice. He demonstrates how much he’s good, by showing the high consideration has about himself, and this effects his opponents. You could see that others were not so sure, he told them right away, from the first movement: "I am the number one”

- "There are many skaters who have a strong body, and many are flexable and have softness and extreme extensibility in their movement. Honestly, I’m not an expert, I don’t notice one element that stands out the Russian. It is his artistic vision, the quality of dance and of how he presents himself , he has completeness."

- "Because this sport is very rich in content. It is a combination of spectacular exercises and elegance, carriage, the jumps, the softness, the strength, the interpretation. A combination that is Always a pleasure to watch.


Maya Plisetskaya- I wont present her... http://www.sport-express.ru/newspaper/2006-02-22/7_1/

"He is our favourite. He is so good that it looks like nobody can beat him. I can't imagine who can be better. He is a master, a great master who does everything beautifully, brilliantly and artistically. Also, he always looks so confident that we, his fans, cannot be not confident. He skates like an artist who knows that he is the best. Other skaters think that they are good too, but they have doubts and get nervous. Plushenko on the contrary always knows that he is much better than others, and he convinces all of us in it. He not just "works" on ice, he dances on ice masterly, and that is a wonderful thing to see."


Maybe your taste is different but you are so brave if you say Plushenko is only a jumper...

 

[plushyfan]

Fernandez's personal best PCS: 46.96 (SP) & 96.78(FS)
Ten's personal best PCS: 44.75 & 91.40
Chan's personal best PCS: 47.18 & 96.50
Plushenko's personal best PCS: 42.50 & 88.84

Okay there. :sarcasm:

Hmmmmm... This is a fals comparison. Plushenko beat Chan, Fernandez, Ten for example in Vancouver and Fernandez at ECH 2012. After they improved in PCS of course, because they competed continously..

 

[moriel]

Fernandez's personal best PCS: 46.96 (SP) & 96.78(FS)
Ten's personal best PCS: 44.75 & 91.40
Chan's personal best PCS: 47.18 & 96.50
Plushenko's personal best PCS: 42.50 & 88.84

Okay there. :sarcasm:

Also,
Yuna's 2010 Oly skate: 33.80 SP and 71.76 FS
Evgenia GPF 2016: 34.38 SP and 72.37 FS

Okay there, go and tell people Evgenia is better than Yuna in PCs department =)

Basically, when doing your sarcasm emote, you forget two things:
1. Plushy got those PCs after tons of injuries and kinda past the peak of his career, and you compare him to Ten, Chan and Fernandez at their best. Not fair.
2. PCs are given away like candy now, look at the example above ^^.

 

[HanDomi]

I was fan of Plush for all the years, but cmon in no way he ever deserved PCS over 40 in SP and over 80 in FS. He had 0 transitions and basically 0 choreography when he got those marks. He was 6.0 skater.

 

[moriel]

I was fan of Plush for all the years, but cmon in no way he ever deserved PCS over 40 in SP and over 80 in FS. He had 0 transitions and basically 0 choreography when he got those marks. He was 6.0 skater.

But that doesnt mean he is bad. Suppose he was raised in CoP instead of having most of his career before it - I am sure he would have managed the CoP aspects better.
This applies to all pre-CoP skaters, and doesnt make them worse skaters or whatever. For instance, Michelle Kwan is great, and most of her skates would get quite low scores, both TES and PCs under CoP.

 

[plushyfan]

No. Plushy beat Javi in 2012 and that was a good program. He did a great skating I remember many people praised it here. And Plushy beat Chan and Ten in 2010. Why that is so unbelievable? He was punished because of the less TRs. But no choreography? Sorry this is so ridiculous.

 

[moriel]

No. Plushy beat Javi in 2012 and that was a good program. He did a great skating I remember many people praised it here. And Plushy beat Chan and Ten in 2010. Why that is so unbelievable? He was punished because of the less TRs. But no choreography? Sorry this is so ridiculous.

And people also forget Plushi is:
1. 8 years older than Chan
2. 9 years older than Fernandez
3. 11 years older than Ten

And then compare them all.
And compare skores Plushy was getting at the end of his competitive career, after multiple injuries, with those folks on the peek of their careers.
In a scoring system that he was not raised in with people who trained under CoP since junior years.

 

[Tutto]

Guys with all due respect but do you think this discussion is going nowhere?
Can we possibly move on to some other topic?

List of participants in Russian Cup Final (16 - 20 Feb):Anton Shulepov, Alexander Samarin, Sergei Voronov, Artur Dmitriev, Artem Lezheev, Evgenii Vlasov, Dmitrii Bushlanov, Zhan Bush, Konstantin Milukov, Roman Galkin
I wonder if Sergei wins this, would the Fed revise the world team?

Also, a long & interesting interview with Kolyada's coach, Valentina Chebotareva by Elena Vaitsehovskaya:
http://www.sport-express.ru/figure-skating/reviews/965058/
And translation:
http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/ind...-kolyada-wants-an-olympic-gold-so-do-i.97908/

 

[moriel]

Guys with all due respect but do you think this discussion is going nowhere?
Can we possibly move on to some other topic?

List of participants in Russian Cup Final (16 - 20 Feb):Anton Shulepov, Alexander Samarin, Sergei Voronov, Artur Dmitriev, Artem Lezheev, Evgenii Vlasov, Dmitrii Bushlanov, Zhan Bush, Konstantin Milukov, Roman Galkin
I wonder if Sergei wins this, would the Fed revise the world team?

Also, a long & interesting interview with Kolyada's coach, Valentina Chebotareva by Elena Vaitsehovskaya:
http://www.sport-express.ru/figure-skating/reviews/965058/
And translation:
http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/ind...-kolyada-wants-an-olympic-gold-so-do-i.97908/

Not likely. Actually, it would be imho a bad move to revise the worlds team. It was selected, let the skaters trains and everybody else will have a chance next year.
The skaters are selected already, they are training, getting ready, probably getting visas etc - if fed started changing the decisions based on who did better on the last compo, i dont think skaters would feel very comfortable.

 

[LRK]

Only the Euros' team has been announced - the Worlds' team has not yet been selected. Apparently the team will be announced in early March?

Anyway, I think it's likely that Kovtun and Kolyada will be sent to Worlds'. That seemed to be Mishin's opinion anyway. But we'll see.

 

[adelia]

Kovtun and Kolyada are very likely going (barring any injuries) to Worlds.
Voronov is there for other reasons. Maybe to be on the alternates list, maybe for GP selection next season, maybe for funding reasons or maybe just to stay in competitive shape. There are many reasons why a coach would want or not want to send his/her skater to the Russian Cup Final.

 

[moriel]

Only the Euros' team has been announced - the Worlds' team has not yet been selected. Apparently the team will be announced in early March?

Anyway, I think it's likely that Kovtun and Kolyada will be sent to Worlds'. That seemed to be Mishin's opinion anyway. But we'll see.

I think they keep same team for both euros and worlds as usual.

 

[LRK]

I think they keep same team for both euros and worlds as usual.

It isn't official, though - and they don't always keep the teams the same. Euros is often used as a qulifyer for Worlds'. However, this year, I think chances are good that the teams will be the same for ladies & gents. (Or the top two of gents, at any rate, since they only have two spots at Worlds'.)