Who will break Yuna Kim's record and when?

[mrrice]

I disagree. Gracie definitely has the talent to be among the top scoring skaters. The quality of her movements is a subjective thing. I think she is a decent COP skater. At least she doesn't skate with a flexed foot!

Gracie not only has the talent. She has the programs, packaging, coaching, and ability to win it all. If Gracie needs anything, it's to develop nerves of steel. She has absolutely everything else.

OK people, I just sent Gracie's Free Program performance from Nationals to one of my former students. Here's a direct quote from her after watching Gracie skate. "She's great but....Why does it look like she's doing her science homework until the end of her program?"

This, IMO will be Gracie's problem when she get's to Worlds. She MUST perform from the first note to the last if she hopes to land on the podium. This is the area where Gracie is IMO, behind several top ladies. Including Mao, Med, Ashley, Alaine, and Rod. I hope she lets the hometown crowd lift her performance to a new level. She's ready technically and as the US Champion, all the elements are in place. She just has to deliver the goods. 7 minutes of skating could change the course of her career. Which, BTW, is already great but if she wants to be a legend, she has to be on the podium.

 

[cheerknithanson]

I disagree. Gracie definitely has the talent to be among the top scoring skaters. The quality of her movements is a subjective thing. I think she is a decent COP skater. At least she doesn't skate with a flexed foot!

I have to agree. Like if skated that FP how she did at nationals plus the way she skated that SP at the 2015 TEB, I think something could happen. Maybe not a World record, but a good position.

 

[cheerknithanson]

Also I like to add, that because of the current rules, to even break the SP, or even FP, one would have to have a 3A and SUPER clean skating. Maybe. Because I don't see anyone getting past a 37 PCS for Ladies SP.

 

[begin]

I want to agree this sentiment but, I just don't. Medvedeva gets her big numbers because she deserves them.

...no she doesn't? That's the point :hopelessness:

I just want to make clear--the LP record is inflated. And it's not like Medvedeva is the only skater who receives a boost for being consistent and the favorite. Think of Yuna Kim herself who used to be slightly overscored when she went clean. The is difference is that only happened with prime Yuna at competitions where she obliterated the rest of the field. Evgenia is not yet in that position.

 

[Krislite]

It's hard when she got it with wonky valuations and GOE scaling. It's going to take someone with two triple triples and crystal clean skating. That just shows how flawed the valuations where back then...

Not flawed, just different scoring rules. No GOE factoring and she had two extra elements that aren't scored today: the level 4 spiral sequence in the SP and LP.

Nevertheless, even under today's rules Yuna could have still gotten that 150. She did get 148 at 2013 Worlds with a slightly easier program, but under the new rules. No need for seven triples, in fact. Had she repeated the Flip with a 3F+2T combo in the back-half (instead of 3S+2T) that already makes up almost the 2 points in BV. Add a little more stretch exercises to get that Biellman back for L4 layback and voila, 150. ;-)

 

[begin]

Not flawed, just different scoring rules. No GOE factoring and she had two extra elements that aren't scored today: the level 4 spiral sequence in the SP and LP.

Nevertheless, even under today's rules Yuna could have still gotten that 150. She did get 148 at 2013 Worlds with a slightly easier program, but under the new rules. No need for seven triples, in fact. Had she repeated the Flip with a 3F+2T combo in the back-half (instead of 3S+2T) that already makes up almost the 2 points in BV. Add a little more stretch exercises to get that Biellman back for L4 layback and voila, 150. ;-)

Don't forget the 2A rule (never agreed with that one tbh). Took away her 2A+3T which was $$$ at the time.

And I still don't understand why she didn't do a 3F+2T. Her flip is stronger than her salchow too...

 

[Krislite]

Don't forget the 2A rule (never agreed with that one tbh). Took away her 2A+3T which was $$$ at the time.

Yes, the 2A+3T was not only higher in BV, but could garner higher GOEs than her 3S+2T.

And I still don't understand why she didn't do a 3F+2T. Her flip is stronger than her salchow too...

Well, I won't think too much on it, but it's probably because her return to competition was risky enough as it is. A 3F+2T in the back-half was probably considered unnecessary risk, although in retrospect it seems it wouldn't have been that difficult.

Interestingly, she was most consistent with the 3F in her last two seasons. She missed her 3/3 combo a couple of times (Golden Spin LP and Korean Nats SP 2013), but she never missed the 3Flip in 2012/13 or 2013/14 seasons. She even managed to do a 3F+3T on the fly.

The whole notion that's it's harder for current skaters to break that old LP record is total hogwash. Yuna herself nearly broke it with an easier program than Vancouver, having no level 4 layback, no 2A+3T combo, no level 4 spiral and only six triples and still getting 148. And some here are saying it's now harder compared to 2010?! Puhlease. I would argue it's actually *easier* given all the crazy PCS inflation, not to mention higher base values for easy triples.

If Medvedeva's back-loaded tano-on-everything-but-the-kitchen-sink approach doesn't break it, it's certainly not Yuna's fault or the rules.

 

[solani]

For me, that record is already broken.
If the performance was scored according to current system (for example, GOE calculations), it would be lower.

Yes and I don't care, honestly. Sports always need new records, the fans and skaters want them, the sport wants/needs new stars. But I think that the ISU should have resetted the world records when they changed the rules (ex. weight lifting), because you cannot compare the scores. Then we would have Yuna's records standing for the early CoP era. I would be happy with that.

 

[Violetti]

I don't expect Medvedeva to broke WR. She was not perfect at Euros. She was nervous before SP. And the competition of gold medal was actually just between her and Radionova. Worlds will be much bigger event and there are many top skaters there. She has to deal with time difference. And it will be her first really, really big event. Yes, she could skate well and even win but I do not think she will broke the WR. If Gold or Mao will skate perfectly both programs they might broke WR but I am not sure if they can do that. I really hope that at least one US lady will skate perfectly both programs.

 

[Ares]

Hopefully not Medvedeva

Yes and I don't care, honestly. Sports always need new records, the fans and skaters want them, the sport wants/needs new stars. But I think that the ISU should have resetted the world records when they changed the rules (ex. weight lifting), because you cannot compare the scores. Then we would have Yuna's records standing for the early CoP era. I would be happy with that.

ISU don't call them official World Records and with a good reason So you're wrong It's much easier to get high score than in the past as opposed to what some claim here especially with how inflated PCS tends to be nowadays and that alone helps even without delving into changes in Base Values / Technical complexities among other things. Just look at component scores in Torino 2006 or Moscow 2005 vs Sochi 2014 Gracie Gold received for one of her SP-s this season over 35 points in PCS if I recall correctly while in Torino 2006 Sasha Cohen who won SP here picked up 31,40

 

[moriel]

Yes and I don't care, honestly. Sports always need new records, the fans and skaters want them, the sport wants/needs new stars. But I think that the ISU should have resetted the world records when they changed the rules (ex. weight lifting), because you cannot compare the scores. Then we would have Yuna's records standing for the early CoP era. I would be happy with that.

For me, they could keep 2 tables - 1 with the scores people got as they are, and another one with all scores recalculated according the latest rules, so we have some reference.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I agree with Kris Lite - Kim was brilliant but she had 6 triples and a few level 3's. While arguably the best skate of all time, it didn't even have the max amount of technical - and skaters are doing 7 triples.

I think Medvedeva will break it... Cue Korea going into another period of deep mourning at the grave injustice. :sarcasm:

 

[andyjo24]

Who will break Yuna Kim's record? Evgenia Medvedeva might do so if she goes clean at Worlds. Mao may do so as well if she goes super clean (no URs and edge calls). If not this season, Medvedeva may do so at COR next season if she goes clean.

Will it be deserved? Probably not due to the massive, massive PCS inflation going on these days. Although a spiral sequence had been included in Yu-na's world-record breaking FS, PCS back then was very low in general. A PCS just above 60 was considered to be excellent! Nowadays, the judges are giving PCS away like candy even to skaters who just broke into the senior scene.

 

[Tutto]

Q: Who will break Yuna Kim's record and when
A: Judges. Pretty soon.

 

[andyjo24]

I agree with Kris Lite - Kim was brilliant but she had 6 triples and a few level 3's. While arguably the best skate of all time, it didn't even have the max amount of technical - and skaters are doing 7 triples.

I think Medvedeva will break it... Cue Korea going into another period of deep mourning at the grave injustice. :sarcasm:

But what you have to consider is that although Kim did one less triple, she actually had a 2A replacing that, so the difference is not a full jump (more like 2-3 points). Many people disregard this for some reason...

I'm pretty sure that Kim's overall PCS should be much higher than Medvedeva's more so than the small technical base value differences between the two.

 

[moriel]

Who will break Yuna Kim's record? Evgenia Medvedeva might do so if she goes clean at Worlds. Mao may do so as well if she goes super clean (no URs and edge calls). If not this season, Medvedeva may do so at COR next season if she goes clean.

Will it be deserved? Probably not due to the massive, massive PCS inflation going on these days. Although a spiral sequence had been included in Yu-na's world-record breaking FS, PCS back then was very low in general. A PCS just above 60 was considered to be excellent! Nowadays, the judges are giving PCS away like candy even to skaters who just broke into the senior scene.

So PCs should be proportional to the number of years a skater skated as senior? Sorry, just so many people saying it...
If a person gives a great performance PCs-wise, it should be rewarded with high PCs, regardless of it being the skater´s first or 10th or 20th year as senior.

 

[andyjo24]

So PCs should be proportional to the number of years a skater skated as senior? Sorry, just so many people saying it...
If a person gives a great performance PCs-wise, it should be rewarded with high PCs, regardless of it being the skater´s first or 10th or 20th year as senior.

Yes, you're right, but my problem is that the judges are treating a skater who just rose up to the senior ranks like she doesn't need to improve anymore. Look At Evgenia. Judges are giving her 70+ PCS, which basically means "You are perfect, and you have nothing you need to improve on," which is absolutely not true. I would say the same for Gracie Gold who has absolutely zero interpretative abilities and still manages to get extremely high interpretation scores.

On the other hand, Yu-na and Mao (who also had phenomenal debuts), for example, only started with PCS around or slightly below 60 and had to work their way up over the past 10 years. How about Evgenia? She just shows up, puts out a clean performance, and gets 72 PCS. That is just beyond my understanding. I acknowledge that she is a very talented and mentally-strong girl, but she does NOT deserve 72+ PCS.

 

[Perdita]

Just for mere curiosity, I re-calculated Yuna's Vancouver marks with the current BV and GOE scale and it turned out to be 144.76 (BV:60.07, TES:73.00, PCS:71.76. I converted SpSq4 and SlSt3 to ChSq1 and StSq4 respectively which decreases BV by 0.8. I haven't doubled checked, not gonna guarantee the correctness though). Well, I don't know what this means, I think it still can't be compared directly to the current score because of other changes happened over the time, but it's an interesting fact to know

 

[jenaj]

Hopefully not Medvedeva




ISU don't call them official World Records and with a good reason So you're wrong It's much easier to get high score than in the past as opposed to what some claim here especially with how inflated PCS tends to be nowadays and that alone helps even without delving into changes in Base Values / Technical complexities among other things. Just look at component scores in Torino 2006 or Moscow 2005 vs Sochi 2014 Gracie Gold received for one of her SP-s this season over 35 points in PCS if I recall correctly while in Torino 2006 Sasha Cohen who won SP here picked up 31,40

PCS was inflated at Vancouver in the long program compared to what it had been before. The factoring of GOE should make it harder to get as high a technical score as before. All of this just shows the futility of comparing scores across seasons under IJS. Even the season's best scores are not entirely equivalent because of subjective judging. But they are more comparable than comparing scores that are based on different methods of calculation and that do not contain the same set of allowed elements.

 

[Ares]

So PCs should be proportional to the number of years a skater skated as senior? Sorry, just so many people saying it...
If a person gives a great performance PCs-wise, it should be rewarded with high PCs, regardless of it being the skater´s first or 10th or 20th year as senior.

I concur with your opinion but I think that judges now give too much points in 2nd mark especially in Skating Skills for young Russian ladies for example.