Gabriella Papadakis & Guillaume Cizeron | Page 33 | Golden Skate

Gabriella Papadakis & Guillaume Cizeron

yuna13 said:
Ah just read two tweet from Jackie Wong and golden skate!! Looks like gabriella and Guillaume practise Was amazing! :love:
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As he said: "Papadakis/Cizeron were Cizzzzzzering..."
They will definitely fight for the gold medal... No doubt about it.
 
yuna13 said:
I just read an interview of Igor shpilband where he says That the european champions (pc) programs are simple, he Also uses the Word crossover and two feet! Last Year he didn't see Them as potential rivals to the américan and now he is saying This ! He should watch his team programs!
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no surprise there - he's trying everything to re-estabilish Chock/Bates' position before Boston, but 1. it's a bit late now (as they are now no.2 in their own country) and 2. unjustified shading of Gabriella and Guillaume or any other top duo is tasteless and takes too much energy he should give his duo during preparation/training. Really sad to see this coming, but I guess he's not seeing any other method of operation right now which makes me think if he's already written off his own students' success in Boston and try to cover himself, overall not looking good for me.

And let me dwell a minute on one thing - Gabriella and Guillaume's programs 'are simple' - 'simplicity' is very subjective word and in Ice Dance in particular, moreover - there is no rule that 'simple' programs should be scored lower or punished, because there is no clear definition of 'simple' program. Igor probably meant technical side, but looking at their tech score at Europeans in FD they managed to get all lv4s aside of 1 lift, so it doesn't look 'simple' at all. What is pissing him (and a lot of other duos ubers/jealous ppl) is the fact that they are nowadays probably the only team who manage to present difficult stuff is such effortless, seamless way on ice - hence the impression of so-called 'simplicity'. And this draws so many fans to them, including judges.

It is so funny to observe such 'sour grapes' attitude and worthless frustration from other coaches/teams - I'd rather work harder with my own team, to create some unique style, some signature to them instead than bashing others for being so perfect, stylish and winning while disguising it behind 'simple programs' calls.

Judging from first practices and overall presentation at Europeans I am sure they'll defend the title in Boston, no doubts - such magic, effortless style combined with strong programs and technique adding their signatures are a winning combination in my book. No other team (even Shibutanis which I love, but their FD this season is still lacking something for me...) has this kind of feeling, my quiet favorites are still Weaver/Poje, but I really admire Gabriella and Guillaume's level of skill and style presented.

Keep calm and :ghug: fro Gabriella and Guillaume

a special shoutout for everyone being right now in Boston (alain06fr) and/or who will be watching SD/FD live - I am green from jealousy and waiting for live reports/impressions!!! :thank:
 
NoNameFace said:
no surprise there - he's trying everything to re-estabilish Chock/Bates' position before Boston, but 1. it's a bit late now (as they are now no.2 in their own country) and 2. unjustified shading of Gabriella and Guillaume or any other top duo is tasteless and takes too much energy he should give his duo during preparation/training. Really sad to see this coming, but I guess he's not seeing any other method of operation right now which makes me think if he's already written off his own students' success in Boston and try to cover himself, overall not looking good for me.

And let me dwell a minute on one thing - Gabriella and Guillaume's programs 'are simple' - 'simplicity' is very subjective word and in Ice Dance in particular, moreover - there is no rule that 'simple' programs should be scored lower or punished, because there is no clear definition of 'simple' program. Igor probably meant technical side, but looking at their tech score at Europeans in FD they managed to get all lv4s aside of 1 lift, so it doesn't look 'simple' at all. What is pissing him (and a lot of other duos ubers/jealous ppl) is the fact that they are nowadays probably the only team who manage to present difficult stuff is such effortless, seamless way on ice - hence the impression of so-called 'simplicity'. And this draws so many fans to them, including judges.
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Not true. You can measure the complexity/simplicity of a program objectively - looking at whether the holds are majority open or closed, how the elements are integrated - is it mostly hand in hand skating between, crossovers, gliding without changing edge etc etc. But a complex program is not always a good program - it can become cluttered and fussy, there is no room to let the choreo breathe because this goal of everything being complex takes over. But simple can be breathtaking. To understand this I would suggest looking at I/K & V/M's Olympic free dances from 2014. V/M undoubtedly had the more complex program, but the complexity wasn't there for a choreographic purpose, it just seemed fiddly & tedious, so no one connected with whatever story they were trying to portray. I/K had a more open program, but they used it to build speed and make their highlight moments count for more, & the movements between elements, although more limited than V/M's, all counted for something in the image they were trying to make on the ice. Ideally, a good judging panel should weigh this all up - V/M deserving higher SS & TR, but I/K winning on CH & IT.

Level 4 everything doesn't necessarily mean that everything else between the elements is complex, which is what Igor is referring to (and I would also argue that Level 4 element doesn't necessarily mean super complex either - in the steps it's more about the ability to execute with completely clean edges, as long as you meet the minimum of 1 foot turns & turns in each direction, and in lifts a lot just depends on what you are comfortable with - an ina bauer counts as a difficult lifting position or exit or entry feature, but I could manage an ina bauer easily after about 6 months of lessons. It all just depends on whether your hips allow the turn out, so I don't get why it can get the same difficulty holding an edge on one foot while lifting the partner. I digress, but the point is level 4 =/= super complex, and the best coaches - including Igor & MF & Patrice - will be looking for the easiest way to get those level 4s.)

Compare P/C's FDs from Montreal with their ones from Lyon, and you will see that the programs are more open and with less complexity between the elements. Is that a bad thing? Simplifying has allowed them to reduce the errors they were making and to improve speed & flow, and it seems the judges value that demonstration of stronger basic skating by doing easier things well over the more challenging and complex programs P/C were attempting with errors from 2012-2014. It makes sense to go with what the judges want. We've seen the same from the Shibs & S/K & their so called improvement this year.
 
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uhh said:
Not true. You can measure the complexity/simplicity of a program objectively - looking at whether the holds are majority open or closed, how the elements are integrated - is it mostly hand in hand skating between, crossovers, gliding without changing edge etc etc. But a complex program is not always a good program - it can become cluttered and fussy, there is no room to let the choreo breathe because this goal of everything being complex takes over. But simple can be breathtaking. To understand this I would suggest looking at I/K & V/M's Olympic free dances from 2014. V/M undoubtedly had the more complex program, but the complexity wasn't there for a choreographic purpose, it just seemed fiddly & tedious, so no one connected with whatever story they were trying to portray. I/K had a more open program, but they used it to build speed and make their highlight moments count for more, & the movements between elements, although more limited than V/M's, all counted for something in the image they were trying to make on the ice. Ideally, a good judging panel should weigh this all up - V/M deserving higher SS & TR, but I/K winning on CH & IT.

Level 4 everything doesn't necessarily mean that everything else between the elements is complex, which is what Igor is referring to (and I would also argue that Level 4 element doesn't necessarily mean super complex either - in the steps it's more about the ability to execute with completely clean edges, as long as you meet the minimum of 1 foot turns & turns in each direction, and in lifts a lot just depends on what you are comfortable with - an ina bauer counts as a difficult lifting position or exit or entry feature, but I could manage an ina bauer easily after about 6 months of lessons. It all just depends on whether your hips allow the turn out, so I don't get why it can get the same difficulty holding an edge on one foot while lifting the partner. I digress, but the point is level 4 =/= super complex, and the best coaches - including Igor & MF & Patrice - will be looking for the easiest way to get those level 4s.)

Compare P/C's FDs from Montreal with their ones from Lyon, and you will see that the programs are more open and with less complexity between the elements. Is that a bad thing? Simplifying has allowed them to reduce the errors they were making and to improve speed & flow, and it seems the judges value that demonstration of stronger basic skating by doing easier things well over the more challenging and complex programs P/C were attempting with errors from 2012-2014. It makes sense to go with what the judges want. We've seen the same from the Shibs & S/K & their so called improvement this year.
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Hmmmmm..... Well, you know, ice dance is different from Ladies, Men and Pairs in the sense that ice dance is both sport and art hence there's always a part of subjectivity to judge it. Dance is all about the connection between two people and their ability to move together in harmony and fluidity, just like "they were one". Ice dance brings technical elements on top of that but still, it's both sport and art.

Igor uses the words "complexity" and "simplicity" on purpose because "Complexity" stands for "good quality', "difficult to perform", "high technical skills", etc while "simplicity" stands for "poor quality", "easy to do", "anyone can do it" and 'low technical skills". If P/C have simple programs then he should easily advise his teams to "simplify" their programs to win competitions. In any case, no one can win twice in a row the Europeans by doing "simple" meaning "easy" things.

The point is that no one else so far is able to perform a program like P/C does, still keeping in mind all their challengers are great and fabulous skaters! To me, since last year, the only team which moved in the same direction is Madison Hubbell and Zach Donohue, which is not that surprising considering they have the same coaches as Gabriella and Guillaume. H/D is actually a very interesting case. Just look to their last season programs and compare them to their actual ones. Don't you think the difference and the evolution is quite remarkable? They improved tremendously their scores at the US championships and I don't see here any "simplification" especially in a country, the USA, where the athletic performance remains a key point.

Both words, complexity and simplicity, are definitely not appropriate at all in this story. Igor used to influence significantly ice dance in the past years but his influence is getting lower simply because ice dance is moving to "something else". I have the feeling that Igor does not understand (or more probably doesn't want to understand) what's going on now in ice dance. His behaviour is typical from someone who refuses the changes and the evolution, as simply as that.

Ice dance has the reputation of being dusty and old fashioned and I have the feeling some people want to change that. I don't know what people will say in some years but ice dance made a transition to something new last year starting in Shanghai (Cup of China) then Bordeaux, Barcelona, Stockholm and again Shanghai for the Worlds.
Judges and some coaches decided to break the ice (well no pun intended here ;) to clearly state Ice Dance should be more about "authentic and genuine ice dance couples" rather than "athletic people dancing on the ice". And this is where I think Guillaume Cizeron will held a special place in the ice dance history as, to me, he's probably the first real and athentic male dancer in this sport. Considering the leading role of the man in dance hence obviously in ice dance, the ability of Guillaume to use his whole body to create modern, unlikely and very difficult moves with Gabriella in between technical elements with a perfect synchronisation and fluidity is really remarkable. Being one of the tallest man in the competition, he actually takes tremendous risks by changing frequently the balance point of his body. This is really amazing! As for Gabriella, it means that she takes risks as well, especially in the lifts, just like last year with this famous "flying kiss".

Gabriella and Guillaume take additional risks by skating very close to each other compared to other couples but this is exactly what dance is about, two bodies next to each other! I think judges award that as well.
 
alain06fr said:
Judges and some coaches decided to break the ice (well no pun intended here ;) to clearly state Ice Dance should be more about "authentic and genuine ice dance couples" rather than "athletic people dancing on the ice". And this is where I think Guillaume Cizeron will held a special place in the ice dance history as, to me, he's probably the first real and athentic male dancer in this sport. Considering the leading role of the man in dance hence obviously in ice dance, the ability of Guillaume to use his whole body to create modern, unlikely and very difficult moves with Gabriella in between technical elements with a perfect synchronisation and fluidity is really remarkable. Being one of the tallest man in the competition, he actually takes tremendous risks by changing frequently the balance point of his body. This is really amazing! As for Gabriella, it means that she takes risks as well, especially in the lifts, just like last year with this famous "flying kiss".

Gabriella and Guillaume take additional risks by skating very close to each other compared to other couples but this is exactly what dance is about, two bodies next to each other! I think judges award that as well.
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Start off, don't take this as an attack on P/C, just musing on where I'd like to see them stretch themselves!

I see it the other way - they are more excellent skaters than dancers - I don't see "genuine dance" in the way I do with K/M's ODs or T/D's compulsories. The movement is exceptional, but if you really pay attention to the rhythm in their SDs, you will see they often don't quite hit the mark. What they are doing is special, (shown in how many people copy them this year :laugh:) but it's a move away from the roots of ice dance which is about expressing the rhythm more than the melody (the ISU technical handbook is very good if you want to get a handle on this). And to say Guillaume is the first authentic dancer - no. He's the best at this current modern aesthetic, but there are so many more styles and so many skaters who have gone before who have been exceptional drawing on other styles of dance from ballroom to folk or ballet; Dean, Platov, Pomomarenko, Jones, Minenkov, Kokko, Vanagas. It does the whole sport a disservice to say what you claim. When he has shown that he can do a ballet program, a classical ballroom, & Broadway inspired program to the same level as the 2 Montreal FDs, maybe you'd have a case, but not yet. ;)

I don't think it helps them or their reputation either to say that x or y is so much more difficult than what anyone else does - like the "flying kiss lift" - in the same year, so not copying from P/C last year, we saw something similar from Nazarova/Nikitin and Testa/Csolley. No particular element stands out as so much more challenging or having the "wow factor" than anyone else - it's how it's all waved together that keeps P/C ahead of everyone else.

And I've found since the move to Montreal that P/C have started skating further apart & that they are further apart than the Shibs or W/P - but again it helps with the speed & smoothness, so it's a trade off that works.
 
I'm loving Gabriella's dress esp. the cute little yellow band aid on her knee. As for Guillaume's, we can't see the front so I'm not sure. I loved his white costume. I wonder if he designed those new ones as well.
 
cocotaffy said:
I'm loving Gabriella's dress esp. the cute little yellow band aid on her knee. As for Guillaume's, we can't see the front so I'm not sure. I loved his white costume. I wonder if he designed those new ones as well.
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I love her new dress too! The band aid must be where she got stitches.
 
Gabriella and Guillaume will be the very last couple to skate for the Short Dance... wow, gonna be a long wait (though they'll know how to handle it, not the first time it happened).
 
Just a few "updates"...

uhh said:
I see it the other way - they are more excellent skaters than dancers
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The "other way"? Euhh... LOL... And where did you read that they are more excellent ice dancers than skaters? I can imagine a great skater being a bad or average ice dancer but a great ice dancer has to be a "more than great" skater. That's just obvious I think.

if you really pay attention to the rhythm in their SD, you will see they often don't quite hit the mark
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Well, none of the ice dancers hit the mark actually. Didn't you notice it?

And to say Guillaume is the first authentic dancer - no. He's the best at this current modern aesthetic, but there are so many more styles and so many skaters who have gone before who have been exceptional drawing on other styles of dance from ballroom to folk or ballet; Dean, Platov, Pomomarenko, Jones, Minenkov, Kokko, Vanagas. It does the whole sport a disservice to say what you claim. When he has shown that he can do a ballet program, a classical ballroom, & Broadway inspired program to the same level as the 2 Montreal FDs, maybe you'd have a case, but not yet. ;)
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Once again, you didn't get my point. As I said, ice dance was quite dusty and old fashioned for such a long time and still now though some couples are pushing to new directions. You talk about ballet programs, classical ballrooms, etc...People really got bored about that kind of stuff after so many years... In a sport like ice dance which is so conservative, it was so convenient to stick to classical dance or ballet. Innovating and trying to promote a modern approach of ice dance was considered by far too risky. I am so happy P/C have their own approach of ice dance regardless of what "should be done" and yes, at the end, it pays off. As for Guillaume ability to dance a classical ballet, I don't really know... Now, interviewed last year on the french TV, his dance teacher in Montréal claimed she keeps on pushing him to start a career of dancer once he will decide to stop ice dance competitions...

I don't think it helps them or their reputation either to say that x or y is so much more difficult than what anyone else does - like the "flying kiss lift"...
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Hummm... Who hold forth about "complex" and "simple" skating?
I was talking about risks taken when ice dancers play up to the limit with the balance point or when they dance close to each other. That's quite obvious I think.

And I've found since the move to Montreal that P/C have started skating further apart & that they are further apart than the Shibs or W/P - but again it helps with the speed & smoothness, so it's a trade off that works.
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Yep.... fully agree on this one.
 
alain06fr said:
Thanks! Sounds like this version is more punchy and more accented compared to Bratislava, especially the last part.
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Yes,I think so too. Looks more dramatic, they might want to differentiate it more from the FD in term of style. That's quite smart as it is one of the main criticism they're facing, too much of the same lyrical style. They can perfectly do dramatic as their old programs show. Didn't you attend their practice then ?
 
uhh said:
Start off, don't take this as an attack on P/C, just musing on where I'd like to see them stretch themselves!
.
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Can we just enjoy this season which was hard and bumpy enough for them ? I mean what is it with this "stretching their limits" ? I've heard it quite a bit as a way to justify criticizing them. "I'm not critical I just want them to stretch" Why people are in such a rush ? It's only their 3rd senior year for god sake. I mean ice dance teams usually spend many many seasons before they hit success and find their style. They will evolve if we let them time to do it.
I prefer frank criticisms TBH it's more honest. That said you've raised some very interesting points. Of course, they definitely need to improve. Thank god for that they're so young it would be sad if they were done before beginning !

Ok, I'm getting a bit cranky, it's time this season ends, to much of a roller coaster :hpull:
 
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