Who will break Yuna Kim's record and when?

[OS]

....
Only USA and Canada have quadless champions as long as their skaters show good quality, skating skill and artistry. Russians would not reward big titles to a skater who do not have difficult jumps.)

Heh.. that is a rather simple way to stereotype...if you are propagandist, but that is hardly the reality. It may be for the men... for now, but hardly the rest of the field. It only happens because not many Russian skaters are as artistically gifted among Maxim's generation, but the new generation may change with some new promising young skaters who have proved they... have ears... and *gasp* can dance!! And seems to care about the overall package.

You also do realise Adelina generally swept the nation and the Olympics with a 3t3t short right? Liza also has the same approach for 90% of her WC season adapting the 3T3T SP approachand reign by the virtue of their default GOEs and PCS reserved for Russian ladies post Sochi inflation, that largely helped by Eurocentric judge panels to continue that momentum building in their PCS.

Philosophically, the only difference is Russia will do ALL IT CAN to win, including installing key figure heads at institution level making strategically important changes at rule and points scoring level that is designed to minimise scoring opportunity of the runaway leader, to their own Olympic hopefuls. While the US still hasn't fallen out of love with the Michelle Kwan legends with the way you see Frank Caroll / Lori mold their skaters to be Kween like rather than celebrate the skater's individual uniqueness and diversity. They do it through packaging (and handicapped themselves in the process, because it is virtually impossible to please every aspect consider it is the COP). The system is so skewed, it unable to distinguish quality over quantity, in doing so, through the scoring, you can't distinguish a realised well rounded balanced choreographed program to one that designed to game maximum points at the expense of everything else.

You have to ask yourself. Why does quality have to be at the expense of difficulty? Why can't both be proportionally rewarded?

Why do you think all of the young Russian girls were told ahead of time to practice doing tanos to game some easy GOEs, prepare strategically 2nd half heavy programs, doing 3T3T approach and bank on GOEs? Which something they were unable to do prior to Vancouver. If Yuna Kim, Mao Asada, Miki Ando, Carolina Kostner reigned the figure skating world with that approach, there would have been chaos. It will be interesting to see how things go after this Melodonium scandal blows over, who will survive and last more than 3 years, and what is their approach going to be. How much will that help by the judging and their 'performance enhancement' advisors that rules the ISU?

 

[koatcue]

Heh.. that is a rather simple way to stereotype...if you are propagandist, but that is hardly the reality. It may be for the men... for now, but hardly the rest of the field. It only happens because not many Russian skaters are as artistically gifted among Maxim's generation, but the new generation may change with some new promising young skaters who have proved they... have ears... and *gasp* can dance!! And seems to care about the overall package.

You also do realise Adelina generally swept the nation and the Olympics with a 3t3t short right? Liza also has the same approach for 90% of her WC season adapting the 3T3T SP approachand reign by the virtue of their default GOEs and PCS reserved for Russian ladies post Sochi inflation, that largely helped by Eurocentric judge panels to continue that momentum building in their PCS.

Philosophically, the only difference is Russia will do ALL IT CAN to win, including installing key figure heads at institution level making strategically important changes at rule and points scoring level that is designed to minimise scoring opportunity of the runaway leader, to their own Olympic hopefuls. While the US still hasn't fallen out of love with the Michelle Kwan legends with the way you see Frank Caroll / Lori mold their skaters to be Kween like rather than celebrate the skater's individual uniqueness and diversity. They do it through packaging (and handicapped themselves in the process, because it is virtually impossible to please every aspect consider it is the COP). The system is so skewed, it unable to distinguish quality over quantity, in doing so, through the scoring, you can't distinguish a realised well rounded balanced choreographed program to one that designed to game maximum points at the expense of everything else.

You have to ask yourself. Why does quality have to be at the expense of difficulty or intricacy? Why can't both be proportionally rewarded?

Why do you think all of the young Russian girls were told ahead of time to practice doing tanos to game some easy GOEs, prepare strategically 2nd half heavy programs, doing 3T3T approach and bank on GOEs? Which something they were unable to do prior to Vancouver. If Yuna Kim, Mao Asada, Miki Ando, Carolina Kostner reigned the figure skating world with that approach, there would have been chaos. It will be interesting to see how things go after this Melodonium scandal blows over, who will survive and last more than 3 years, and what is their approach going to be. How much will that help by the judging and their 'performance enhancement' advisors that rules the ISU?

I had a bad reading. A very bad-baaad reading. I wish I didn't.:disagree:

 

[Crossover]

Heh.. that is a rather simple way to stereotype...if you are propagandist, but that is hardly the reality. It may be for the men... for now, but hardly the rest of the field. It only happens because not many Russian skaters are as artistically gifted among Maxim's generation, but the new generation may change with some new promising young skaters who have proved they... have ears... and *gasp* can dance!! And seems to care about the overall package.

You also do realise Adelina generally swept the nation and the Olympics with a 3t3t short right? Liza also has the same approach for 90% of her WC season adapting the 3T3T SP approachand reign by the virtue of their default GOEs and PCS reserved for Russian ladies post Sochi inflation, that largely helped by Eurocentric judge panels to continue that momentum building in their PCS.

Philosophically, the only difference is Russia will do ALL IT CAN to win, including installing key figure heads at institution level making strategically important changes at rule and points scoring level that is designed to minimise scoring opportunity of the runaway leader, to their own Olympic hopefuls. While the US still hasn't fallen out of love with the Michelle Kwan legends with the way you see Frank Caroll / Lori mold their skaters to be Kween like rather than celebrate the skater's individual uniqueness and diversity. They do it through packaging (and handicapped themselves in the process, because it is virtually impossible to please every aspect consider it is the COP). The system is so skewed, it unable to distinguish quality over quantity, in doing so, through the scoring, you can't distinguish a realised well rounded balanced choreographed program to one that designed to game maximum points at the expense of everything else.

You have to ask yourself. Why does quality have to be at the expense of difficulty or intricacy? Why can't both be proportionally rewarded?

Why do you think all of the young Russian girls were told ahead of time to practice doing tanos to game some easy GOEs, prepare strategically 2nd half heavy programs, doing 3T3T approach and bank on GOEs? Which something they were unable to do prior to Vancouver. If Yuna Kim, Mao Asada, Miki Ando, Carolina Kostner reigned the figure skating world with that approach, there would have been chaos. It will be interesting to see how things go after this Melodonium scandal blows over, who will survive and last more than 3 years, and what is their approach going to be. How much will that help by the judging and their 'performance enhancement' advisors that rules the ISU?

Several things as mentioned are different from my point of view, but in general, :agree:

 

[jenaj]

I didn’t mean the styles are necessarily different, but the emphasis of skills, values and philosophy are different. There is a limited resources and time for each athlete. Learning one skill takes away his/her time from learning another skill. Unless the skater is a genius who doesn’t need much practice to learn new skills, he/she will have to make a choice on which skills are more important and should spend more time on them, and which skills are less important and will spend less time on them. (I don’t think anyone has unlimited time to spend a lot of time on every skill.) Russian coaches would emphasize more on athletic skills like jumps and American/Canadian coaches would emphasize more on artistic skills like skating skill, posture, carriage, etc. (Not sure if that’s the right way to categorize it, sounds like the athleticism vs artistry debate). It’s not that coaches would not care about other skills, just that they have different emphasis given the resources they have. It will depend on individual skater’s natural talent too. Some are more gifted in athletic/artistic skills than others. (Only the best of the best skaters can excel in every skill. That’s a very small number of skaters.) There are always exceptions. But the emphasis/value/philosophy of Russian skating in general is quite different from the Canadian/American skating. (Otherwise, we wouldn’t see this athleticism vs artistry debates all the time. Only USA and Canada have quadless champions as long as their skaters show good quality, skating skill and artistry. Russians would not reward big titles to a skater who do not have difficult jumps.)

What quadless champion does Canada have? The US and Canada are not one entity.

 

[Mathman]

What quadless champion does Canada have? The US and Canada are not one entity.

Jeff Buttle, 2008?

Anyway, to get back to the thread topic: The judges were not stingy in the short dance just now. If this holds up Evgenia will beat the record this weekend.

 

[Jay Jay]

Jeff Buttle, 2008?

Anyway, to get back to the thread topic: The judges were not stingy in the short dance just now. If this holds up Evgenia will beat the record this weekend.

Yes, maybe she will break both SP and LP records!

 

[koatcue]

Yes, maybe she will break both SP and LP records!

Hope it happens. Especially given her modifications in FP. She is unmatched.

 

[sallycinnamon]

Uh, I'd be sad if Medvedeva (or anyone else) broke Yuna Kim's world record this weekend. Not that the scoring system hasn't changed at all since 2010 and world records make sense...but it would be just sad to watch, especially in the long program. It seems to be easier to break the SP world record. I don't know why, maybe because it was already broke two years ago, and the LP world record has been the same for six years now. (Though Yuna herself was quite far away from breaking her own world record in Sochi; Sotnikova was very near in the long program though.)

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Uh, I'd be sad if Medvedeva (or anyone else) broke Yuna Kim's world record this weekend. Not that the scoring system hasn't changed at all since 2010 and world records make sense...but it would be just sad to watch, especially in the long program. It seems to be easier to break the SP world record. I don't know why, maybe because it was already broke two years ago, and the LP world record has been the same for six years now. (Though Yuna herself was quite far away from breaking her own world record in Sochi; Sotnikova was very near in the long program though.)

I think the LP record is more beatable because more skaters are able to match (on TES) a 6 triple LP than a SP with a 3A and two more triples. At Worlds only Mao can possibly beat the SP record, while she or Evgenia (maybe even Gracie) could beat the LP record.

 

[sallycinnamon]

I think the LP record is more beatable because more skaters are able to match (on TES) a 6 triple LP than a SP with a 3A and two more triples. At Worlds only Mao can possibly beat the SP record, while she or Evgenia (maybe even Gracie) could beat the LP record.

Yes, you are right. I wanted to write that it seemed to be more easier to break the SP record. But as I see the scoring tendencies this season, I don't agree with it anymore. If Medvedeva or anyone else will break a record, it will be the long program. Her best ever SP score is more than four points away from the current world record, which is big margin.

 

[wanderlust]

Unless Mao nails an 8 triple FS, I don't think any lady should be beating Yuna's highest FS score this weekend.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Unless Mao nails an 8 triple FS, I don't think any lady should be beating Yuna's highest FS score this weekend.

Well, it's a sport. Seven triples with great spins should beat six triples with ok spins, at least on TES.

 

[Silvia451]

Surely I'm a biased fan, but I'd like both records to stay the same. Mao and Yuna. It sums up ladies figure skating for the last 10 years.

However, I think Medvedeva can break at worlds at least the FS record..with some help from the judges maybe

 

[Dan]

Check out ISUResults protocals. Put them the data into a table and see it rise rise rise


before

http://www.isuresults.com/results/owg2010/owg10_Ladies_SP_Scores.pdf
http://www.isuresults.com/results/owg2010/owg10_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf



after

http://www.isuresults.com/results/owg2014/owg14_Ladies_SP_Scores.pdf
http://www.isuresults.com/results/owg2014/owg14_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf

I see that you have posted the results from the Ladies event in Vancouver and Sochi. I'm not sure that more GOE of +2 and +3 occurred in Sochi than in Vancouver. But for the sake of argument, let's say that did occur. Could you explain how the factored GOE score for certain jumps is responsible for this change? Could some other reason be behind the change? And could you explain the other question that came from this thread? Specifically, how does the ISU encourage judges to increase the PCS scores?

 

[Dan]

Currently, the criteria for awarding GOE is based on the number of bullet points a jump satisfies; see http://static.isu.org/media/207718/1944-sptc-sov-communication-2015-2016.pdf. For example, a jump with "good height and distance" and "good extension on landing / creative exit" means that a judge should award a GOE of +1. However, in the past, this jump would've been awarded a GOE of +0 -- "good" was not sufficient, the adjective used in the past was "excellent" if I recall correctly.

After the 2009-2010 Olympics season, judges in general were encouraged to maximise the awarding of GOEs and make use of the PCS range i.e. scoring skaters with '10s' instead of just '8s' or '9s' in the past.

Correction: "excellent" was not the word, the words ISU used were "great" and "superior" (2008); see http://static.isu.org/media/105798/1505-plus-goe-singles-and-pairs-communicat.pdf.

Thank you DarR for the response. I am familiar with these two documents. The original post said that factoring of GOE by 0.7 instead of 1.0 in the table in the first link that you posted resulted in Judges giving more +2 and +3 GOE after 2010. Do you agree with that? I can't see that based solely on the first link with Table of Values that you provided. Before 2010, did they have the definitive guidelines (X number of bullet points gets Y GOE) as stated in your second link or did they have such definitive guidelines prior to 2010 but after 2010 changed the wording of the bullet points such as "great", "excellent", and "superior"?

And you said the same thing as the original poster about PCS that I don't understand. That is, that after 2010, the ISU encouraged judges to use the full range of PCS. How did the ISU encourage judges to do that? Without specific guidelines like in your links for marking GOE, how does the ISU encourage a PCS scoring change or for that matter anything to happen?

 

[Mathman]

^ I believe that the ISU holds seminars for judges in which they explain any changes of rules and the rationales behind them. ISU officials (especially the ISU technical committee) also communicate with national federation heads who in turn pass information along to the judges.

 

[Krunchii]

Well, it's a sport. Seven triples with great spins should beat six triples with ok spins, at least on TES.

The GOEs were scaled differently and at the time there was a Spiral Sequence, while Evgenia's TES is pretty admirable, I don't think she's at the level to be breaking that record yet. Her PCS is pretty out of control to me.

 

[jenm]

Well, it's a sport. Seven triples with great spins should beat six triples with ok spins, at least on TES.

I think it's pretty biased that only the spins are categorised as ok or great. What about the jumps? Great jumps beat ok jumps too ya know.
And PC as well. Great presentation and skating skills beat ok skills too.

 

[gsyzf]

What quadless champion does Canada have? The US and Canada are not one entity.

Jeff Buttle, and Patrick Chan(if we count national champions), and maybe more. I didn't say USA and Canada are one entity, just that they share similar values/philosophy. There are others in the skating community that share similar values too. But USA and Canada are powerful/dominant enough to push for rule change.

 

[Sam L]

To be honest, I'm a fan of 6.0 system. It's fine to talk about world records etc.. but discussions like this make me cringe at the current system. It's like we're talking about Track or Swimming and who's going to break the world record. It's odd to see that when none of that used to exist in the 6.0 days. It was just plain arguing about how was better over subjective, artistic details (you know Midori had all the jumps but did she have Kristi's artistry kind of stuff) like they were some opera divas (that Joan Sutherland could hit all the notes but does feel the music and perform like Maria Callas) or ballerinas. LOL.

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And it would be pretty exciting for whichever lady that does end up breaking this long standing record. Good luck to them all.