29th Practice incident discussion

[Meoima]

If that is so then why was it so difficult for Hanyu to avoid/skate past Denis and then do his 3A without issues? Denis was in the middle of a spin, Hanyu saw him fully, rink was empty-ish, what is the problem?

Yuzuru did change his direction to avoid hitting Denis. Here is the proof of a neutral eye: http://www.rockerskating.com/news/2016/3/31/2016-worlds-practice-notes-day-4-a-note-on-hanyu-ten

 

[hurrah]

Yes, you can think Denis is rude, etc, but do you realize that INTENTIONAL SABOTAGE means Denis can be suspended or face disciplinary/punitive actions? Really, spinning in the rink during practice in full view of everyone is intentional sabotage?

Well, if the proper authorities view whatever footage is available and judge that there was serious intent, he should have to face the consequences. It's no joke getting in a skater's way during official practice. It can lead to serious injury and permanent damage.

 

[eta]

I have some questions: Does a skater in a middle of a spin see which way other skater is skating to can stop and move out of the way? Does a skater know each time where they should clear the spot for the other skater during the other run-through? Is not usual to practise spins during the run-through of other skaters?

Was clear when Denis began with his spin that Hanyu will went exactly through the spot Denis was in?

They probably don't in the middle of a spin, but surely they can before the spin (which is the situation here).

And no, it is not usual to practice spins in the middle of the rink during other skaters' run-throughs.

 

[qwertyskates]

Actually before Ten started his spin he saw Yuzu was going his way. Still he choose to enter the spin. During Yuzu's music. Heh.

Frank is saying Denis was doing his own thing in his head, the end of his SP, he might not have heard or noticed Hanyu's music. I am wont to not notice my surroundings while absorbed and focused on something I'm doing. It doesn't make me a saboteur. Publicly accusing Denis, otoh, is serious, and intentional.

 

[Yatagarasu]

Hanyu has footage of everything and Frank Carroll is trying to play amateur PR which is amusing me personally but on another level, he is poking a beast that he does not want to awake. This is a PR dream for Hanyu's side, in case they need to spin it. Seriously, don't go there.

Anyway, Denis Ten and Frank Carroll are playing with fire. I am genuinely baffled by no gag-order from Ten's Federation yet, they should know better. This is not a game they can win. There is only one course of action for them here, stop talking, apologize and let it all die down.

 

[huoyubai]

that's what happend last year which yuzu just mentioned:
i just find it's really hard to stifle the conjecture
http://www.weibo.com/p/230444fdfc1ff6f9ad4b3e53559bfb1a19f7ee

why after yuzu has falled, and denis knowed yuzu's falling, still doing his jump and, particulary jump straight towards falling down yuzu? if yuzu had not get up sufficient quickly...

and just for you know: regarding yuzu's popularity in China（where pooh rains after yuzu performance） and COC incident, Chinese organizers did forwardly equip for yuzu a exclusive vehicle (and body guards) yuzu didn't take it at first place, but the Chinese fans did show their excessive fever tracing for him, then he accepted the arrangement.

in fact, in chinese bbs months ago fans have already discussed about denis' complain about Chinese organizer, like they display his music wrong intentionally because Kazakhstan is the competitor of China in Olymplic bid, like he can not get on the transport (because it's not for him)

 

[eta]

Frank is saying Denis was doing his own thing in his head, the end of his SP, he might not have heard or noticed Hanyu's music. I am wont to not notice my surroundings while absorbed and focused on something I'm doing. It doesn't make me a saboteur. Publicly accusing Denis, otoh, is serious, and intentional.

Exactly - oblivious to his surroundings which include other skaters going at high speeds? How irresponsible.

 

[PatricksGaze]

It's also too absent-minded to start practicing spin (which takes time for sure and prevents you from seeing anything=>frees yourself of responsibility) in the middle of a skater's run through. It implies that Denis already felt entitled to having his territory, expecting Yuzuru to adapt if anything. And how come he doesn't know Yuzu's program's layout?

 

[qwertyskates]

Well, if the proper authorities view whatever footage is available and judge that there was serious intent, he should have to face the consequences. It's no joke getting in a skater's way during official practice. It can lead to serious injury and permanent damage.

I think if the video shows Hanyu in the middle of doing something and Denis goes right into his path and then did his spin then it would be egregious. But from the Japanese video, posted on this thread, Denis was already in his spin, Javier and Patrick skated past Denis who was in full camel, Hanyu skated past Denis and looked very angry, I don't think you can call it Denis trying to cause injury to Hanyu.

 

[s_parks]

I cannot with this thread anymore.

 

[skatefan22]

I think if the video shows Hanyu in the middle of doing something and Denis goes right into his path and then did his spin then it would be egregious. But from the Japanese video, posted on this thread, Denis was already in his spin, Javier and Patrick skated past Denis who was in full camel, Hanyu skated past Denis and looked very angry, I don't think you can call it Denis trying to cause injury to Hanyu.

The current footage doesn't show the full episode yet. I am sure Hanyu team has the footage of everything. Otherwise, Hanyu wouldn't have said "I checked the replay myself. He saw me coming towards him before he started to enter his spin in a way which is not his usual routine." So if FC and Ten keep their attitude like that, Japanese media won't go easy and sooner or later the footage will be released.

 

[hurrah]

I think if the video shows Hanyu in the middle of doing something and Denis goes right into his path and then did his spin then it would be egregious. But from the Japanese video, posted on this thread, Denis was already in his spin, Javier and Patrick skated past Denis who was in full camel, Hanyu skated past Denis and looked very angry, I don't think you can call it Denis trying to cause injury to Hanyu.

Did I say Denis was trying to cause injury to Hanyu here? I said Denis was inconsiderate and rude, and in general, getting in a skater's way can cause serious injury and permanent damage.

But Frank Carroll's interview makes the whole thing even more insidious. Just horrible.

 

[PatricksGaze]

I think if the video shows Hanyu in the middle of doing something and Denis goes right into his path and then did his spin then it would be egregious. But from the Japanese video, posted on this thread, Denis was already in his spin, Javier and Patrick skated past Denis who was in full camel, Hanyu skated past Denis and looked very angry, I don't think you can call it Denis trying to cause injury to Hanyu.

It's not the video of the exact incident. It happened before that 3Axel thing.

 

[qwertyskates]

Hanyu's fans may beg to differ but I'm saying in all seriousness it could backfire very badly as well. If all these facts described by Frank were true, Denis is only guilty of being oblivious, and skaters in the middle of their practice tend to become too focused on themselves and oblivious to others. In this case, Hanyu wasn't oblivious, he was upset at another skater's oblivion, but he is publicly accusing Denis of sabotage, which takes it to a different level. Hanyu can get mad that Denis didn't give him the full center rink, he can lodge a complaint and maybe allowed extra practice minutes if he so wished. He could have done a host of other things to get his practice the way he felt was fair, but he went to the media with a terrible, ugly story.

Oblivion is NOT the same as intentional sabotage.

 

[Plisskin]

Well, I think many in this thread should maybe see the footage first before accusing Denis of sabotage and that he needs to apologize. I understand you guys are fans of Yuzuru but c'mon, this is getting a little ridiculous in here...

 

[Li'Kitsu]

If that is so then why was it so difficult for Hanyu to avoid/skate past Denis and then do his 3A without issues? Denis was in the middle of a spin, Hanyu saw him fully, rink was empty-ish, what is the problem?

How about because you can obviously do stuff if you're prepared to do it, but if you're set up do a jump that moment, that certain way, and then turn around to see somebody is in the way, it's not quite the same?
This wasn't just Yuzu practicing a single, isolated jump - it was a jump out of complex, set choreography.

And one can have any opinion about what either party said afterwards, but I kind of think the important thing is what happened and what the skaters did on the ice. I really don't understand how anyone can say there was absolutely nothing wrong with what Denis did. I don't even care if it was intentional or not, because we have no chance of knowing. But he was in Yuzu's way repeatedly while Yuzu's music was playing, and that endangered both of them. Yes, collisions do happen, but just because they sadly will happen sometimes that's no excuse to not do your best to avoid them. Denis - from everything that we've seen - clearly didn't do that. Pretty sure if every skater just started to think the way Denis and Frank Carroll are explaining now, nobody would ever get to do half of a program run-through at all.

And in that sense, it needs to be made clear to him that he can not show that kind of negligent behavior towards other skaters. If a face to face talk between him and Yuzu wasn't enough to make him see that, then IMO the JSF filling an official complaint is the right thing to do. This doesn't mean a witch-hunt or "destroying anybody's reputation forever" or whatever, but a clear sign that what he did wasn't okay. Denis had enough chances to clear this up too - it looks like a simple apology would have gone a long way - but he decided not to do it. He's surely not some poor little victim being attacked by Yuzu now.

 

[PatricksGaze]

Hanyu's fans may beg to differ but I'm saying in all seriousness it could backfire very badly as well. If all these facts described by Frank were true, Denis is only guilty of being oblivious, and skaters in the middle of their practice tend to become too focused on themselves and oblivious to others. In this case, Hanyu wasn't oblivious, he was upset at another skater's oblivion, but he is publicly accusing Denis of sabotage, which takes it to a different level. Hanyu can get mad that Denis didn't give him the full center rink, he can lodge a complaint and maybe allowed extra practice minutes if he so wished. He could have done a host of other things to get his practice the way he felt was fair, but he went to the media with a terrible, ugly story.

Oblivion is NOT the same as intentional sabotage.

Yuzuru didn't state that Denis did it on purpose. He said that such a thought accured to him after he'd checked the video and analyzed it. He doesn't exclude the posiibility. And he has the right to imply Denis' deliberateness after experiencing repetitive actions from Denis.

 

[eta]

Well, I think many in this thread should maybe see the footage first before accusing Denis of sabotage and that he needs to apologize. I understand you guys are fans of Yuzuru but c'mon...

Regardless of who was wrong, in such a situation, both parties should apologize, as they are public figures. Yuzu did.

 

[qwertyskates]

It's not the video of the exact incident. It happened before that 3Axel thing.

It showed Hanyu was fully aware of Denis and no doubt angry from the looks of it. He could lodge a complaint on the spot, get the authorities to ask Denis to move aaide while Chopin gets replayed, etc. His goal is to practise the way he wanted done. However, to go to the media with such an accusation of intentional sabotage like this is terrible.

 

[Lysambre]

Reading this thread, what jumps to my eyes is the amount of victim blaming.

Lots of people have been saying the equivalent of "oh, don't make Denis the evil step-mother in this story". When people say that, it's usually because they realise first thing that the person's behaviour is intrisically wrong, typical of victim blaming.

The same people call Hanyu's reaction to a multiple incident "over-reacting", typical of victim blaming.

(And I'm not 100% sure if Denis's answers about the incident were proper quotes, I'm very careful with anything quoted by medias, as they seem to love drama more than actual sport, but if they were... well, I hate to say it again, but that type of passive-agressive answers : typical victim blaming).


Let's put the whole story into a slightly different context.

If I see a car drive straight at me despite me having the right of way, I'm going to maybe honk (because honks are actually there just for that : a warning when you feel the situation could be dangerous), just to basically remind them that I'm here and I have the right of way. If that car deliberately cuts me off, making me veer off the road and, I don't know, maybe have an accident, I might be a bit angry.

If the same car does that three times in less than two days, I'm going to start thinking they indeed are doing it on purpose and I'm going to get a lot more angry (might even go as far as punching my wheel, go figure).

I'd like to hear you tell me that the other driver wasn't in the wrong. I'd like to hear you tell me that I probably over-reacted and that nothing happened (yeah, because I actually had to get off the road, since I was the only one to apparently pay any attention to what was going on... so something happened, just not to the other car).


So I'm not going to point fingers, I'm not going to accuse people of things, especially since I wasn't there, but maybe, just maybe, put a little water into your wine before you go the victim blaming way, because it just makes you sound like a hypocrit.

In any case, I'm just glad these two aren't in the same group anymore. More drama avoided.


Also, Hanyu and Ten are both very well known for their politeness, so I'm thinking that the high tension maybe got to them both. An apology does wonder to the mind (on both sides, because once things blow over, all parties need to be part of the apology).