- Joined
- Feb 15, 2014
Okay you need to calm down, is like MAXSwagg said, some people were just waiting for the opportunity to jump on Yuzu when is very clear that Denis was at fault. We should focus on the great things that happened at Worlds already.
29th Practice incident discussion
- Thread starter Sydney Rose
- Start date
- Status
Okay you need to calm down, is like MAXSwagg said, some people were just waiting for the opportunity to jump on Yuzu when is very clear that Denis was at fault. We should focus on the great things that happened at Worlds already.
- Joined
- Apr 2, 2014
Did you just miss all of the previous discussions? It was Yuzuru's music playing and he has the right of way during practice. Denis should have known better and been more careful in avoiding Yuzuru, especially since it's already happened twice before. That really isn't what most people here are arguing about (I see more people arguing about Yuzuru's actions of going to the media, Denis' comments, etc.)
But anyway, I really think it's quite useless to keep debating about the situation. We'll just have to see how the complaint goes (is it confirmed that it was filed?)
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2015
- Joined
- Feb 13, 2014
Yuzuru skated pass Dice after Dice finished his jump for a while and Dice was almost stroking still. Why do you think there is issue with this? They skated pass each other and none of them were doing any element or run though. Yuzuru even lifted one of his leg so he did not touch Dice.
Nam and Yuzuru have been teasing each other like that for long. Yuzuru also teased Nobu and Akiko like that in ice show. Again, Nam and Yuzuru skate side by side in practice at CC daily, it's normal teasing between them.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2014
It is Yahoo news. Multiple news outlets report this including Sportiva: http://sportiva.shueisha.co.jp/clm/othersports/2016/04/01/post_619/index.php
To some people, it's probably not about the issue itself, it's about your likeness/dislikeness to the involved skaters and their fans.
Someone having a large fan base certainly does not the God that is right in every case, but it does not mean he or his fan must be bullying the others too.
Anyone who is saying that Hanyu and his fans are demanding a totally cleared rink for him is not true, at least Hanyu himself is not asking for this. He has an issue with Ten now, but never to any other skaters before. He crashed seriously with Yan Han that he said it's just an accident. After that case, he constantly has had some near missed with others of course, but there was no dramas. All of us, and absolutely the skaters, should know the importance of written or unwritten courtesy in a limited space for a few people to practice at the same time. That is saying that we have to be considerate, which is not something be shown in Frank and Denis remarks.
I can't judge Denis is meant to do it or not, I certainly hope he's not intended to it. But looking at the latest situation, it seems that Hanyu has the right to doubt.
1. This was not the first time. Hanyu did talk to him before losing his temper.
2. Frank's words claiming that Denis dis not notice Hanyu was about to do the runthru, Denis didn't hear his music. But Hanyu's 3A is in the second half of program which means the music had been playing in the rink over 1 min, I think it's extremely difficult to neglect the sound for such a long time. Frank's word doesn't sound reliable.
3. Hanyu got the video, he had something more precise for him to judge. I believe that's why JSF can file to ISU. Here I'm not saying that Hanyu's judgement must be correct, but he has the right to analyse and draw his own conclusion when there is material for him to consider. BTW, I don't think he's making a wild accusation under pressure. Hanyu did not pointing to an intention right after the clash on rink. He came up to that accusation after reviewing a video clip.
I just think Hanyu has his right to make a decision in case he has some evidence to support it but I don't mean his accusation must be correct. I still suppose Ten was not intended to do it as I haven't seen the video. Then we come to the safety issue.
Some people said clashes are okay to happen, I totally disagree with it when we just generalize the situation. As mentioned before, we are no kids, they are not skating there for the first time, we know there will be accident. It is FORGIVEN (from and for both sides) but SHOULD HAVE NEVER COUNTED AS A MUST. If people's mindset is loose like 'you have to expect a clash, don't whine' then accidents happen frequently. Another thing is all about attitude. I have been saying this all the way long, we don't want a clash or near missed, but it does happen sometimes. LET'S HAVE A NICE ADORABLE HANDSHAKE OR HUG WHEN IT'S NOT A REPEATED BEHAVIOR AND SHOWING A LITTLE APOLOGETIC TO THE THING. Even when Hanyu collided with Yan, though it's sad but I think we should not blame anyone for that. They both showed the awareness to the issue after it happened, they understood the situation and moved on. However in the latest case, Hanyu did try to manage it in private with Ten before the issue, it just didn't work. Looking at the reply from Frank and Denis, obviously they don't take the whole thing and that private little chat serious. When someone simply neglects a reasonable concern to safety issue, accident is not simply only accident anymore.
So the next point is about Hanyu's concern is reasonable or not. Frank and Denis don't think people should give a way as long as they can when a skater is having his/her music. That's a huge issue. Indeed it's not a written rule, law, regulation, whatever. But I do expect the courtesy, consideration, usual practice, whatever from the skaters as said before. IMO we need the unwritten and mutual courtesy to respect the priority to runthru coz it lets skaters manage their plans to use the space, helping in reducing the chance of clashes. It's not just Hanyu who was doing runthru, there's other people including Ten himself. I suppose other skaters did also grant Ten that priority to use the ice as much as they can when he ran his music. There is a huge difference between 'I am not able to do it' and 'I don't think I have to do it.' Before talking about shouting or barking, what I regard to 'behavior' is SAFETY AND BEING CONSIDERATE. But Frank is now suggesting people can occupy the space whatever and whenever they want and no need to think of the runthru - whoever stands there first is the winner of that piece of holy ice. If Frank and Denis are telling their true thoughts, we need to figure out if it is correct to do or not. If that's the case, people know it's all their right to do whatever they want and nvm runthru. In a contrast, thinking to the bright side, skaters are freer then.
I actually don't want to avoid this thing and it's absolutely not a correct attitude to just get rid of a crucial issue because of it's indecent presentation. But being realistic, I can see it's disgusting and damaging the images of both skaters. For the sake of their images, perhaps I should stop discussing - when people really see it as a chance to stir things up or looking at it as just like another cat fight. IMO this issue is worth discussing but it's only true when we are not ranting some kinds of mysterious hatred to skaters and their fans, staying objective (as much as we can) and focusing on the case itself.
Btw, best wishes to both of them for the coming competition. Hope this is not distracting them though it seems impossible...
Someone having a large fan base certainly does not the God that is right in every case, but it does not mean he or his fan must be bullying the others too.
Anyone who is saying that Hanyu and his fans are demanding a totally cleared rink for him is not true, at least Hanyu himself is not asking for this. He has an issue with Ten now, but never to any other skaters before. He crashed seriously with Yan Han that he said it's just an accident. After that case, he constantly has had some near missed with others of course, but there was no dramas. All of us, and absolutely the skaters, should know the importance of written or unwritten courtesy in a limited space for a few people to practice at the same time. That is saying that we have to be considerate, which is not something be shown in Frank and Denis remarks.
I can't judge Denis is meant to do it or not, I certainly hope he's not intended to it. But looking at the latest situation, it seems that Hanyu has the right to doubt.
1. This was not the first time. Hanyu did talk to him before losing his temper.
2. Frank's words claiming that Denis dis not notice Hanyu was about to do the runthru, Denis didn't hear his music. But Hanyu's 3A is in the second half of program which means the music had been playing in the rink over 1 min, I think it's extremely difficult to neglect the sound for such a long time. Frank's word doesn't sound reliable.
3. Hanyu got the video, he had something more precise for him to judge. I believe that's why JSF can file to ISU. Here I'm not saying that Hanyu's judgement must be correct, but he has the right to analyse and draw his own conclusion when there is material for him to consider. BTW, I don't think he's making a wild accusation under pressure. Hanyu did not pointing to an intention right after the clash on rink. He came up to that accusation after reviewing a video clip.
I just think Hanyu has his right to make a decision in case he has some evidence to support it but I don't mean his accusation must be correct. I still suppose Ten was not intended to do it as I haven't seen the video. Then we come to the safety issue.
Some people said clashes are okay to happen, I totally disagree with it when we just generalize the situation. As mentioned before, we are no kids, they are not skating there for the first time, we know there will be accident. It is FORGIVEN (from and for both sides) but SHOULD HAVE NEVER COUNTED AS A MUST. If people's mindset is loose like 'you have to expect a clash, don't whine' then accidents happen frequently. Another thing is all about attitude. I have been saying this all the way long, we don't want a clash or near missed, but it does happen sometimes. LET'S HAVE A NICE ADORABLE HANDSHAKE OR HUG WHEN IT'S NOT A REPEATED BEHAVIOR AND SHOWING A LITTLE APOLOGETIC TO THE THING. Even when Hanyu collided with Yan, though it's sad but I think we should not blame anyone for that. They both showed the awareness to the issue after it happened, they understood the situation and moved on. However in the latest case, Hanyu did try to manage it in private with Ten before the issue, it just didn't work. Looking at the reply from Frank and Denis, obviously they don't take the whole thing and that private little chat serious. When someone simply neglects a reasonable concern to safety issue, accident is not simply only accident anymore.
So the next point is about Hanyu's concern is reasonable or not. Frank and Denis don't think people should give a way as long as they can when a skater is having his/her music. That's a huge issue. Indeed it's not a written rule, law, regulation, whatever. But I do expect the courtesy, consideration, usual practice, whatever from the skaters as said before. IMO we need the unwritten and mutual courtesy to respect the priority to runthru coz it lets skaters manage their plans to use the space, helping in reducing the chance of clashes. It's not just Hanyu who was doing runthru, there's other people including Ten himself. I suppose other skaters did also grant Ten that priority to use the ice as much as they can when he ran his music. There is a huge difference between 'I am not able to do it' and 'I don't think I have to do it.' Before talking about shouting or barking, what I regard to 'behavior' is SAFETY AND BEING CONSIDERATE. But Frank is now suggesting people can occupy the space whatever and whenever they want and no need to think of the runthru - whoever stands there first is the winner of that piece of holy ice. If Frank and Denis are telling their true thoughts, we need to figure out if it is correct to do or not. If that's the case, people know it's all their right to do whatever they want and nvm runthru. In a contrast, thinking to the bright side, skaters are freer then.
I actually don't want to avoid this thing and it's absolutely not a correct attitude to just get rid of a crucial issue because of it's indecent presentation. But being realistic, I can see it's disgusting and damaging the images of both skaters. For the sake of their images, perhaps I should stop discussing - when people really see it as a chance to stir things up or looking at it as just like another cat fight. IMO this issue is worth discussing but it's only true when we are not ranting some kinds of mysterious hatred to skaters and their fans, staying objective (as much as we can) and focusing on the case itself.
Btw, best wishes to both of them for the coming competition. Hope this is not distracting them though it seems impossible...
Last edited:
- Joined
- Mar 4, 2014
The direct interview with Frank Carrol has been published in Russian press today. I can translate if anyone's interested.
Carrol takes a softer approach at first, stating that neither Yuzu nor Denis are at fault. But then he proceeds to throw a shade at Yuzu just as Denis did, stating that it was not so much of a deal, that Yuzu could just change his path since the rink was almost empty with the exception of 2 of them, giving his reasons as an observer. He clearly tried to protect Denis it seems.
Note: oh, just noticed there's a translated version already
http://vesti.kz/figure_skating/218402/
There is also a comment from Johnny. He protected Yuzu but said nothing offensive about Denis, just noticed that skaters should always be aware of other skaters on the ice so not to hinder their routine. They wrote some nonsence here though.
http://rsport.ru/figure_skating/20160331/909215611.html
Johnny: "I don' think it's (intentional interference) possible on such a high level of competition. Well, except the incident with Tonya Harding. It's very difficult to be on the ice with the 5 best skaters in the World since everyone tries to bite (or fight for) their own piece of space, territory and time. I've always thought someone wanted to kill me. But that's the nature of men' FS. It's possible that Ten really didn't see Hanyu. But you always have to keep an eye on your competitors on the ice. On this high level you already know your rivals' programs cause you've skated with them so many times."
Then he was asked what he thinks of Hanyu's barking at Denis.
Johnny: "Tension is way too high. You can't expect others to be politically correct all the time. If Yuzuru did bark, then he was too upset, his safety was in question. When you skate into someone at full speed it doesn't matter whether you're small or big. Yes, Yuzuru is thin and small and so is Denis. But once I was hit by a small girl, who just happened to be at wrong place at wrong time, which resulted in a nasty injury. It's very dangerous. Everyone barks from time to time, there's nothing wrong with Yuzu barking at Ten. It's just that he was angry and tried to defend himself."
I love Johnny.
Carrol takes a softer approach at first, stating that neither Yuzu nor Denis are at fault. But then he proceeds to throw a shade at Yuzu just as Denis did, stating that it was not so much of a deal, that Yuzu could just change his path since the rink was almost empty with the exception of 2 of them, giving his reasons as an observer. He clearly tried to protect Denis it seems.
Note: oh, just noticed there's a translated version already
http://vesti.kz/figure_skating/218402/
There is also a comment from Johnny. He protected Yuzu but said nothing offensive about Denis, just noticed that skaters should always be aware of other skaters on the ice so not to hinder their routine. They wrote some nonsence here though.
http://rsport.ru/figure_skating/20160331/909215611.html
Johnny: "I don' think it's (intentional interference) possible on such a high level of competition. Well, except the incident with Tonya Harding. It's very difficult to be on the ice with the 5 best skaters in the World since everyone tries to bite (or fight for) their own piece of space, territory and time. I've always thought someone wanted to kill me. But that's the nature of men' FS. It's possible that Ten really didn't see Hanyu. But you always have to keep an eye on your competitors on the ice. On this high level you already know your rivals' programs cause you've skated with them so many times."
Then he was asked what he thinks of Hanyu's barking at Denis.
Johnny: "Tension is way too high. You can't expect others to be politically correct all the time. If Yuzuru did bark, then he was too upset, his safety was in question. When you skate into someone at full speed it doesn't matter whether you're small or big. Yes, Yuzuru is thin and small and so is Denis. But once I was hit by a small girl, who just happened to be at wrong place at wrong time, which resulted in a nasty injury. It's very dangerous. Everyone barks from time to time, there's nothing wrong with Yuzu barking at Ten. It's just that he was angry and tried to defend himself."
I love Johnny.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2014
Frank Carroll answers reporters' questions:
- What was the overall situation on the ice?
- There were 6 people on the ice, but the practice was wrapping up and most skaters moved toward the barriers.
- What was Denis doing at the moment when Hanyu started preparing for his jump?
- Denis was in the center of the ice and he was practicing a combined spin which he does at the end of his short program.
- The main question on everyone's mind is: was there really a collision?
- No, there wasn't. Hanyu was going for his jump in the center of the rink, straight at Denis while he was doing his spin. There was no collision.
- Again, what was Hanyu doing at that moment?
- He was practicing his triple axel. He moved to the center while Denis was spinning in one spot.
- And what happened then?
- Well, he still went at Denis, then yelled something angrily and passed him by, but he still continued with his movement, jumped the triple axel and then he fell.
- Do you remember what exactly did Hanyu say?
- I don't know, he yelled in Japanese.
- What is your take on the situation?
- Nobody is at fault. Neither Denis nor Hanyu are guilty. Things like these happen quite often. First of all, Denis was performing his spin and thus he wasn't aware of what exactly was happening on the ice when Hanyu's music started playing. Second, Hanyu is an experienced athlete and an Olympic champion. He could have gone two feet on one side of Denis or two feet on the other side of Denis. There was enough space between Denis and the barrier, since there was nobody else on the ice by that time. It was possible to change the direction a little bit before making the triple axel. It doesn't take much skill, but, for some reason, Hanyu still didn't do it. Hanyu once collided with Han Yan in China, where both boys were badly injured. He also had a collision with Murakami at the Japanese Nationals, where no-one was injured. And now here he has this incident with Denis Ten. It seems to me like a pattern of collisions and it's strange that it happened three times.
- Can you tell me more about the axel jump? Particularly, how is it different from other jumps?
- This jump is the only one that is conducted face-forward, whereas in other jumps you move backwards, because that way it is easier to vault using the toe-pick. The triple axel is an extremely difficult jump and you have start prepping for it at the far end of the ice rink.
- Does this mean that, in order to perform the triple axel, the skater should be able to see everything that's in front of him?
- Yes, and since it is a long way from the end of the rink to its center, I think that Hanyu had enough time to get ready and adapt his pattern.
Подробнее: http://vesti.kz/figure_skating/218402/
Любое использование материалов сайта допускается только при наличии активной ссылки на Vesti.kz
- What was the overall situation on the ice?
- There were 6 people on the ice, but the practice was wrapping up and most skaters moved toward the barriers.
- What was Denis doing at the moment when Hanyu started preparing for his jump?
- Denis was in the center of the ice and he was practicing a combined spin which he does at the end of his short program.
- The main question on everyone's mind is: was there really a collision?
- No, there wasn't. Hanyu was going for his jump in the center of the rink, straight at Denis while he was doing his spin. There was no collision.
- Again, what was Hanyu doing at that moment?
- He was practicing his triple axel. He moved to the center while Denis was spinning in one spot.
- And what happened then?
- Well, he still went at Denis, then yelled something angrily and passed him by, but he still continued with his movement, jumped the triple axel and then he fell.
- Do you remember what exactly did Hanyu say?
- I don't know, he yelled in Japanese.
- What is your take on the situation?
- Nobody is at fault. Neither Denis nor Hanyu are guilty. Things like these happen quite often. First of all, Denis was performing his spin and thus he wasn't aware of what exactly was happening on the ice when Hanyu's music started playing. Second, Hanyu is an experienced athlete and an Olympic champion. He could have gone two feet on one side of Denis or two feet on the other side of Denis. There was enough space between Denis and the barrier, since there was nobody else on the ice by that time. It was possible to change the direction a little bit before making the triple axel. It doesn't take much skill, but, for some reason, Hanyu still didn't do it. Hanyu once collided with Han Yan in China, where both boys were badly injured. He also had a collision with Murakami at the Japanese Nationals, where no-one was injured. And now here he has this incident with Denis Ten. It seems to me like a pattern of collisions and it's strange that it happened three times.
- Can you tell me more about the axel jump? Particularly, how is it different from other jumps?
- This jump is the only one that is conducted face-forward, whereas in other jumps you move backwards, because that way it is easier to vault using the toe-pick. The triple axel is an extremely difficult jump and you have start prepping for it at the far end of the ice rink.
- Does this mean that, in order to perform the triple axel, the skater should be able to see everything that's in front of him?
- Yes, and since it is a long way from the end of the rink to its center, I think that Hanyu had enough time to get ready and adapt his pattern.
Подробнее: http://vesti.kz/figure_skating/218402/
Любое использование материалов сайта допускается только при наличии активной ссылки на Vesti.kz
That's another thing which is interesting also - Yes, indeed Carroll is true to a certain extent - It's Hanyu who changed his path to avoid Ten finally. He did what he could do at most. If he upheld his believe like Ten and Carroll that he had the right to not avoiding anyone, lwho knows what would happen on them. So what's the responsibility of Hanyu? And how much is it?
Carroll is even implying Hanyu is having a problem and tending to have clashes with people frequently. Come on, as they also said before, people on the ice do get closed to each other, including Ten, Hanyu, Fernandez, Max... you name it and he knew it. Just mentioning the most publicize occasions (probably due to the fame and the previous COC accident of Hanyu) to lead to another line? Wow, that's something in different level. Now it becomes the problem of Hanyu? Umm, that's complicated.
- Joined
- Mar 4, 2014
Yeah, it kinda makes me furious. Carroll is basically throwing even worse accusation at Hanyu in a passive-aggressive way, stating that there's a "tendency" of Hanyu to bump into skaters. So insensitive, especially after COC incident. That was very wrong to say so.
Also, Yuzu may be carefree sometimes, slipping through behind people' backs, but he never hindered other skaters' run through or brought problems to them.
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2015
https://twitter.com/enmi_g/status/715828723916881922
It seems media has recorded everything and will show, this happened before 3A incident .. you can clearly see what happened.
It seems media has recorded everything and will show, this happened before 3A incident .. you can clearly see what happened.
Well, after Yuzuru basically accused Denis of sabotaging him and potentially even filing a protest I don't blame Frank for defending his skater and I don't think what he said was bad either. Overrall, this all much ado about nothing to be honest and being blown way out of proportion.
- Joined
- Feb 13, 2014
1) It was Yuzuru who changed the direction to avoid hitting Denis. Frank is saying as it Yuzuru didn't change the direction which is not true. Rocker Skating did note that it was Yuzuru who changed his direction. So Yuzuru already did his best to avoid any potential collision.
Source: http://www.rockerskating.com/news/2016/3/31/2016-worlds-practice-notes-day-4-a-note-on-hanyu-ten
2) Yuzuru's 3A is designed to be in the second half of the program, which means the music has started about 1.5 minute before he attempted the 3A. So Denis kept spinning for 1.5 minute without having any idea of the background music. If you think it's possible then ok. I find it a bit weird. Denis is that much unaware of the surrounding? let's assume he was unaware. However:
3) Denis was in Yuzuru's way 3 times in total. People were there (like Karne) can confirm and they actually saw it. This is one of the incidents: https://twitter.com/enmi_g/status/715828723916881922
So it is not just 1 incident at all. If you see the same skater crossing your way during YOUR music run though not just 1 but 3 times, what do you feel about it?
Anyway, I truly hope none of them is at fault and I hope they will settle this down calmly and peacefully
Last edited:
- Joined
- Aug 8, 2009
Wait, it was during Hanyu's music playing right? So why does Denis Ten get to do his spin wherever he pleases and Hanyu has to accommodate Denis and find a spot where he usually doesn't do his triple-axel?
Maybe Frank Carroll doesn't get that it was during Hanyu's music playing that his student did this?
Like coach, like student. Uh, oh.
Maybe Frank Carroll doesn't get that it was during Hanyu's music playing that his student did this?
Like coach, like student. Uh, oh.
Let's see the possibilities of this.
Given that the public knows much less of the facts to this issue, so we suppose the validity of accusation from Hanyu is unknow -
Possible scenario A: Hanyu's accusation is a mistake
So of cuz Carroll has the right to protect his student, but do it with something not obviously selective and misleading please. Given that Hanyu did his accusation with something we don't know (the video) but (and thus) we cannot confirm it's an absolute air play also, do the same thing if you want to throw back. Frank's dropping passive aggressive hints with selective sampling, which is not the same thing.
Possible scenario B: Hanyu's accusation is not a mistake
Carroll's simply having ill intention to attack Hanyu.
Seriously, it's not okay to say whatever you want to throw it back to someone. Everyone has every right to explain, accuse and fight back but please don't be misleading.
Do people even know what accusations are? Frank said there were three accidents involving Hanyu in the past, that's well known fact, not accusation. Saying others deliberately disturbing you and out to get you is a serious accusation. The whole thing is going viral because Hanyu made it a big deal in public media. Don't blame others for distracting you now.
- Status
