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- Jun 27, 2012
Unfair Judging
- Thread starter kallirroe
- Start date
probably...but who knows?
- Joined
- Nov 19, 2010
It seems, with all the virtual exposures these days, people have become blasé with the best and most incredible human talents. They forget their own utter lack of such talents and set impossibly high standards and expectations for others. They also become very critical about others' failure to live up to these standards.
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And we seriously talking about 'fair jufging' here? In what reality....
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- Jan 11, 2014
Thanks for your responses gkelly and Violet Bliss! I didn't realize how subjective GOE scoring can be as well. Perhaps, at the end of the day, the best thing a judge can do is just to be consistent across skaters, since they each will have their own subjectivities based on their own experiences. Like Violet Bliss said, there is, after all, a panel of judges, so as long as all the judges are consistent with how they judge all the skaters, the overall ranking should turn out ok.
With that said, shouldn't the 'corridor' of judging that I've frequently heard about here then be based on how the judge himself scores a skater relative to other skaters instead of how a judge scores relative to other judges for the same skater? For example, what if a judge has a 'higher standard' compared to all the other judges and thus scores every skater below the average of the other judges, but when you compare the scores between the skaters, they make sense? This is based on my understanding that judges are 'judged' based on the sum of their absolute deviations from the mean scores, though I'm not certain if that's still the case now.
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- Jun 21, 2003
In practice, though, it's not so bad. For one thing, the "corridor" is so broad that your scores have to be way off in comparison to the other judges. It wouldn't catch the difference between a tough judge and a lenient judge, unless the difference is extreme. There are only a dozen or so disciplinary actions taken each year, mostly at the lower levels and mostly in ice dance.
The ISU does have an interest in achieving a judging system that has objective standards built in wherever possible. If a judge prides himself on always giving out lower (or higher) scores to all competitors across the board, compared to the consensus of judges, that judge could consider raising his scores a point of two for everybody. (Although a judge can still say, "That guy did no transitions at all. I am going to give him a 2.5 in that category, no matter what anyone else does!")
Even under 6.0 judging, after the first skater performed the competition was paused to calculate the mean of the judges scores. This number was presented to each judge so that he could see whether he was judging more strictly of more generously than his fellows. (I am not sure what the judges did with this information, actually.)
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- Nov 19, 2010
It'll indeed be interesting to know if ISU does something about a judge's out of her own corridor scoring, i.e. being extremely generous or stingy toward a skater relative to her usual standard scoring the other competitors.
http://static.isu.org/media/380978/2035-officials-evaluation-figure-skating_2016-2017.pdf
Communication No. 2035
Rules of Procedure for the Officials Assessment Commission – Evaluation of Judging - Assessments for the Figure Skating Branch.
This is 8 pages of an interesting read. I find it really interesting how deviation points are calculated, not really strict algorythm I would say
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As far as I can tell from the officials evaluation procedure, there really isn't a statistical method in place to catch a judge "being extremely generous or stingy toward a skater relative to her usual standard scoring the other competitors" as long as the generosity or stinginess are relatively subtle (within 1.0 or 1.5 points of the average).
If they're significantly lower or higher on enough individual scores, that would count as an error.
(See the rest of the document for discussion of what constitutes an error.)
If the statistical analysis finds 15 errors over the course of a season, the judge will automatically get an assessment no matter what kinds of errors they were.
If a judge accumulates 10-14 errors during the season, "the respective Technical Committee will review the Judges error record for a possible Assessment."
If the technical committee during their review noticed that most of those errors involved overmarking compatriot skaters and/or undermarking their closest rivals, or a particular nationality, then they would probably look for subtler patterns of bias in the rest of the judge's marks and be more likely to issue an assessment with less than 15 errors for the season.
If they're significantly lower or higher on enough individual scores, that would count as an error.
(See the rest of the document for discussion of what constitutes an error.)
If the statistical analysis finds 15 errors over the course of a season, the judge will automatically get an assessment no matter what kinds of errors they were.
If a judge accumulates 10-14 errors during the season, "the respective Technical Committee will review the Judges error record for a possible Assessment."
If the technical committee during their review noticed that most of those errors involved overmarking compatriot skaters and/or undermarking their closest rivals, or a particular nationality, then they would probably look for subtler patterns of bias in the rest of the judge's marks and be more likely to issue an assessment with less than 15 errors for the season.
This is very true!
People who failed with their life, somehow believe that a skater or any other person in the public, has to fulfill their own dreams. I find that very sad...
It get´s even worse, if said people then swarm social media and spread hate.
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- Dec 1, 2015
for me there are no remarkable girls at the moment. Everyone is allowed to think what they think, and that is what I think. Thank you.
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- Dec 1, 2015
don't be ridiculous....this is a sport that is very subjective, and tries to be objective. As a viewer of figure skating for many years, if I want to express that the newer crop of skaters now are average, so what? It's my opinion and maybe this sport does need to be criticized considering the issue with scoring has come up countless times on this forum..... The status quo is not always good.
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- Nov 19, 2010
Let's talk relativity. There are debates about scoring as a matter of relativity, comparing skaters, especially the rivaling ones. Fairness and unfairness are about the justification of one score relative to another or all/most others. Ardent fans do these kinds of debates but it does not necessarily mean they think any of rivals are mediocre athletes.
Average, as the word you repeatedly use, is definitely relative, somewhere between more and less, often close to the mean, with about equal numbers above and below. To claim some skaters as average, there have to be a significant number higher or a few spectacularly higher than the average. Yet you state there are just a few just a little better and none remarkable. It does not compute this way.
And I think you just validated yourself as one of those with overly high standard set for others in something you don't participate in, in any capacity remotely close to those you are so critical of.
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- Dec 1, 2015
I don't need to participate in the sport to have an opinion. You sound very ridiculous. Keep going.
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- Jun 21, 2003
Switch to men! Have we ever had a trio the likes of Hanyu, Chan and Javi at the same time?
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- Dec 1, 2015
no, and what a great trio....soon to be a fourth one added, as I think Jun Hwan Cha will join them.....I just discovered him in Yokohama, he is remarkable. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSqlhIN9PW0
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- Joined
- Sep 14, 2008
Yes it does compute, that poster is correct. Quality and determining if something is average or not is based on ALL-TIME scale. Not only looking at the present.
The current generation of skaters are lacking in comparison to the past when it comes to giving an organic performance, showcasing musicality and character, and creating meaningful pictures and moments of thrill on the ice. Skating these days is very choppy, everything is rushed from one movement to the next in order to show as much "difficult" movement as possible.
There is a clarity and purpose that has been lost and when the movements don't have the same meaning, it becomes so much easier to do them. Instead of worrying about "does this look good? Is this going to excite the audience?", the focus is now just on simply motoring your way through a program and expecting the audience to appreciate it.
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- Sep 14, 2008
I can't tell if you're kidding or not, but the age-old happening of elders complaining about the younger generation, just for the sake of it, is not what I am talking about.
Watch this and then try to say that any competitor these days displays the same level of ability to utilize their arms with purpose, move their body in ways that convey deep meaning and emotion, and at all times present a cohesive vision to the audience. It just isn't happening these days. There are too many check-list items in programs that are detracting.
The entire 1998 Olympic podium showed better quality in this area than anyone today. Tara Lipinski may have been criticized for being relatively immature/simplistic in comparison to someone like Kwan, but her performances were still at a higher level than anyone today. She showed genuine, expressive emotion at every moment, entirely to the music. Not just one-note emotion either, there was a great softness to her arms at times, in addition to her exuberant quality. See here - there's a clear embodiment of the music happening. You can see and feel how it is running through her, guiding her movement, and that she is then reflecting it back into the audience. We don't get movement and emotional involvement like this anymore, it isn't valued enough, and that is sad. It is a definite skill, being able to project and perform like this, to show this kind of freedom, in the middle of an athletic performance. To make every body position and movement meaningful, allowing each section to fully blossom into completion, dictated by the music.
Watch this and then try to say that any competitor these days displays the same level of ability to utilize their arms with purpose, move their body in ways that convey deep meaning and emotion, and at all times present a cohesive vision to the audience. It just isn't happening these days. There are too many check-list items in programs that are detracting.
The entire 1998 Olympic podium showed better quality in this area than anyone today. Tara Lipinski may have been criticized for being relatively immature/simplistic in comparison to someone like Kwan, but her performances were still at a higher level than anyone today. She showed genuine, expressive emotion at every moment, entirely to the music. Not just one-note emotion either, there was a great softness to her arms at times, in addition to her exuberant quality. See here - there's a clear embodiment of the music happening. You can see and feel how it is running through her, guiding her movement, and that she is then reflecting it back into the audience. We don't get movement and emotional involvement like this anymore, it isn't valued enough, and that is sad. It is a definite skill, being able to project and perform like this, to show this kind of freedom, in the middle of an athletic performance. To make every body position and movement meaningful, allowing each section to fully blossom into completion, dictated by the music.
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- Jun 21, 2014
When I started following figure skating, by the time I was familiar with it I started watching several skaters from older generations not mentioning them because I don't want to be sliced , while measuring them to the current generation and couldn't understand why there was so much praise to the older performances. I found several blank faces and annoying back crossovers between those too (sacrilege). So with time I just assumed it was just a typical nostalgic sentiment for those who experienced firsthand, a difference in opinions or both, and called it a day. Of course in either generation there will be those that will differentiate themselves from the pack because of their performance strenght, and there will always be those who don't and maybe, just maybe, those will not be that much remembered when it comes the generation switch. 
I believe I'm not blind to difference in artistic qualities so that's my take.
I believe I'm not blind to difference in artistic qualities so that's my take.
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- Nov 30, 2013
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