Will this Olympic cycle be a hollow victory?

[skylark]

All of the medal contenders are talented skaters who are enjoyable to watch. I hope that they can compete as best as they can to the best of their ability on the biggest stage and be satisfied that they gave an Olympian worthy effort.

May the best skaters win from wherever they call home.

I have (JMO) just one amendment: May those who skate best, on the day, win ... wherever they call home.
I that Alysa Liu said, after her WC victory, "I'm not the best skater in the world." I like to think the above is what she meant.
And I remember an Olympic champion who said something like "why can't she say, 'She was better' ? Meaning her rival who lost on that day should admit that the winner was better.

Even then, long before I watched figure skating avidly, I thought that was wrong. Her rival skated better than the OGMedalist on other days at other competitions.

I will of course be rooting for my countryman but just as loudly for many skaters from other countries that have become near and dear to my heart.

Me too!

 

[Skater Boy]

I am not sure I would use the term "hollow" victory. But not have the full Russian team competing undoubtedly would have a very major effect on many results. However, Russia's impact is also affected by the fat it is 4 years since they have competed internationally. So many skaters gave up with no hope of skating internationally and it is hard to stay motivated so Russia migth not hae been as competitive but then again that also says the severe impact of not having Russia compete for four years. Whether itis a hollow victory will depend on your thoughts on Russia. Some will be that they were "cheats" or whatever and others woudl say they want the best to win regardless if itis more tech skills. THe fact that the ladies winning score in the free skate for example will probably be no higher than 160 or low 160's Having Petrosian skate at the olympics while nice is not likely garner a Russian win. She is not only young but has not skated internationally but once in four years. She does not have a reputation and will be hard pressed to get good pcs. But life and skating goes on without Russia. Just not the same. I do not agree with the attack on the Ukraine but it is sad to see hardworking athletes pay the price. Fortunately even the actioons of the US Gov't in Argentian did not lead the US to be expelled from the games. Can you imagine the outrage and NBC's anger?

 

[Skating91]

I think Amber Glenn, Alyssa Liu and Isabeau Levitó are great. Their nationals free programs did make me nervous and Amber and Alyssa were not flawless. Because they and their Japanese rivals are basically doing the same elements, the Olympic medals will be awarded to the flawless performers. Let's hope American nerves don't cause them to fold as they did in 2018.

But what's really bothering me is that this will seem like a hollow victory since the Russians can't perform. Does it take the Eastern Europeans being banned for American ladies to have a chance at a medal? Can we call this a real competition if some of the most ferocious skaters aren't allowed on the playground. Sasha had to skate against Irina in 2006. It just seems a bit scaled back to me. Thoughts on this topic and on American nerves, please.

Of course it's going to be hollow victory in the women's and pairs discipline.

Not to mention that the one Russian woman to be participating will only be at her second international competition (with the first being a qualifier with little competition), and operating under what is effectively an apartheid system (forbidden to attend opening ceremony, forbidden to speak to press, has to wear an independent athlete "uniform" as if to easily distinguish them even though they have met the criteria of being independent people, will have no coaches/support staff with her, one team has made veiled threats towards the independent athletes, vague criteria for her entry conditions still hanging over her head if she takes a photo in the wrong place, trains on the wrong ice, something she says on social media is taken the wrong way it's an instant ban from the Olympics). Imagine going to a foreign country, don't speak English, don't speak Italian, tiny 150cm 18 year old woman completely alone and likely ostracised by almost everyone. Terrifying! What should be the highlight of her athletic career seems like psychological torture being exerted on her from every angle.

You compare to Liu/Glenn/Levito who will have one hundred strong delegation behind them offering anything and everything they require, freedom of movement in the village, no people promising to treat them poorly (if people do bully/mistreat/threaten them they can probably report it have those people disciplined/credentials revoked/kicked out of the Olympics).

It's basically setup so that Petrosian fails and makes a fool of herself out there. I thought it was a celebration of athletes bringing the world together? This is like a blood sport, they're using Petrosian to create a spectacle like watching a bull fight. This is a sport that loves to pretend to care about the psychological health of athletes when it suits their agenda, but when it comes down to it they have spent a year creating the conditions for what they're almost hoping for will be a spectacular meltdown and humiliation out there.

The ISU and IOC I hope they are proud of themselves for treating an 18 year old woman like this.

 

[Skating91]

The Olympic champion is the Olympic champion. That's reality. If someone says, you're not really the Olympic champion -- well, OK, people can say whatever engages their fancy.

They will be champion of course, but when people look back in 40 years and ask how did Sakamoto or Liu break that run of domination in the women's event there will always be that explanation of the Russian skaters being banned through no fault of their own for four years.

It will mean they are Olympic champion, but didn't conquer the world to do it. That's what makes an Olympic gold so special, you have to hold it together through that cycle, perform on the day beating the best in the world. Usually being Olympic champion means you are the best in the world, but this time it won't be the case in the women's or pairs disciplines.

Kind of like if they US basketball team was banned through no fault of their own from the Olympics, then Serbia or Lithuania won gold, it wouldn't be as valuable as having to beat the US team at the Olympics to win gold. There will be an asterisk or explanation in the history books for the result.

Or winning an Indy 500 after the split in 1995 it never had the same prestige as before the split.

Yes I know Petrosian is competing, but she had to be selected a year ago when her form was different, and has all kinds of onerous conditions placed on her that maybe no athlete in history has had to contend with. It's anything but an even playing field. Sakamoto/Liu/Glenn are hitting from the ladies tee, Petrosian from even further back than the men's tee.

 

[TallyT]

They will be champion of course, but when people look back in 40 years and ask how did Sakamoto or Liu break that run of domination in the women's event there will always be that explanation of the Russian skaters being banned through no fault of their own for four years.

Firstly, can we cool it with the 'no fault of their own' blather ad nauseam for skaters who mostly happily suck up to the very government whose actions have brought them (and many even more innocent people) to this pass? Lots of people suffer far worse from what they have no hand in creating, that's the state of the world and has been forever.

Secondly, few but hardcore fans - and not that many of those - are going to look back in 40 years and even remember the Russians or anyone else who aren't there. Hell, how many who celebrate Dick Button's two OGMs is even aware let alone interested in the fact that a great many of his rivals who might have beaten him were excluded, especially in 1948, "through no fault of their own" due to their lives, countries and the rest of the world being gutted by war? Not many, such things slide in the historical memory, along with the people involved (I could be wrong but myself, I doubt Sakamoto or Liu or Glenn will prove to be the sort of pantheon-level stars that will be remembered that long, but hey, neither will most of the Russian girls for the last decade except Trusova and - for the wrong reasons - Valieva.)

And I also very much doubt that either Kaori or Alysa will ever feel their WC medals are hollow.

 

[melsh]

(I could be wrong but myself, I doubt Sakamoto or Liu or Glenn will prove to be the sort of pantheon-level stars that will be remembered that long, but hey, neither will most of the Russian girls for the last decade except Trusova and - for the wrong reasons - Valieva.)

Kamila is back jumping explosive quadruples, making news. She'll return. She will be remembered for her incredible talent and passion.

 

[TallyT]

Kamila is back jumping explosive quadruples, making news. She'll return. She will be remembered for her incredible talent and passion.

She'll be remembered first and foremost for the soap opera scandal at Beijing.

I am not saying that out of dislike - I am indifferent to her - or without agreeing that she might regain some or much of the skill and reputation (with a caveat) she had before the strawberry dessert. I am just looking at how history operates.

 

[lariko]

Every time I watch a major figure skating competition, it is a reminder how much the world sucks and this thread is a precise demo of both brands of toxicity -- negative and positive -- that always prevailed sports but now is amplified to the insane degree because Russian and Belorussian figure skaters are paying for the world's problems and they are paying for it in a supermely toxic way, where it hits the hardest those who are the most innocent, the unknown kids who had never stepped on the international ice during their entire career. How can anyone call this situation desirable in any way is beyond me.

People who say this is not about Russian girls who skate -- figure skating is about girls who skate. And boys. Again, Russian men exist, Russian pairs exist, Russian ice dance exist.

Any attempt to narrow down the issue is toxic.

Making a competition about something beyond who skates how is by definition an unfair competition, unfair judging and, hence, the reason for toxicity. You can't sidestep this by excersing toxic positivity to the max.

Agian, again and again, Belorussia also exists. Do not forget Belorussia. Do not forget Russian men. Do not forget Russian pairs. Do not forget Russian ice dance. Do not forget that it has not become better in terms of clean athletes, scandals, fair judging and ISU's corporate hypocrisy in 2022-2026. Do not forget that banning Russian figure skaters from ISU competitions didn't change anything about the politics.

The wins in Olympics will not be hollow for the participants, but the figure skating is toxic and impossible to watch without thinking about the horrible sucky world we live in, and the impossibility to even imagine the better one. This is why the whole cycle sucks and the Olympics sucks.

 

[TallyT]

Do not forget that banning Russian figure skaters from ISU competitions didn't change anything about the politics.

Agreed. Do not also forget that if the worst thing that happens to anyone in this day and age is not being able to go to the Olympics they are Lady Luck's own pets.

And it will not change the historic view of the medals, any more than it did when countries could not compete in earlier times.

 

[frompolandwithlove]

it hits the hardest those who are the most innocent, the unknown kids who had never stepped on the international ice during their entire career.

I don't know if not stepping on the International ice is what hits "the hardest". I could name a few bigger tragedies in life.

People who say this is not about Russian girls who skate -- figure skating is about girls who skate. And boys. Again, Russian men exist, Russian pairs exist, Russian ice dance exist.

And they are free to skate within their own country. Where they are relatively safe and have big competitive field. The world does not revolve around them.

Do not forget that it has not become better in terms of clean athletes, scandals, fair judging and ISU's corporate hypocrisy in 2022-2026.

It was never about clean athletes or judging or even the sport itself. It was about russian invasion on Ukraine.

Do not forget that banning Russian figure skaters from ISU competitions didn't change anything about the politics.

True. Other actions don't seem to work either.

 

[Skating91]

Firstly, can we cool it with the 'no fault of their own' blather ad nauseam for skaters who mostly happily suck up to the very government whose actions have brought them (and many even more innocent people) to this pass? Lots of people suffer far worse from what they have no hand in creating, that's the state of the world and has been forever.

Cool it with the politics please. I suppose though 'no politics' only applies to opinions you disagree with right?

Petrosian is a neutral athlete, no athlete has has been as scrutinised by the governing body in history.

Secondly, few but hardcore fans - and not that many of those - are going to look back in 40 years and even remember the Russians or anyone else who aren't there. Hell, how many who celebrate Dick Button's two OGMs is even aware let alone interested in the fact that a great many of his rivals who might have beaten him were excluded, especially in 1948, "through no fault of their own" due to their lives, countries and the rest of the world being gutted by war? Not many, such things slide in the historical memory, along with the people involved (I could be wrong but myself, I doubt Sakamoto or Liu or Glenn will prove to be the sort of pantheon-level stars that will be remembered that long, but hey, neither will most of the Russian girls for the last decade except Trusova and - for the wrong reasons - Valieva.)

If you do a news search on google there's so many news stories about Valieva (positive too not the condescending, dismissive tone you get from people too close to the sport, driven by agendas and perceived grievances). That's merely competing in some novelty jump competition in Russia. The ISU could only dream of such coverage of their sport. All the internet warriors were ready to write their smart aleck "Eteri use by date" obituary, make some little snide remark about grandfather, but her 4T is almost better at nearly 20 than at age 15 . All they have now will be to just keep bringing up the past, some event that happened at age 15 (tennis barely punishes adults for what happened with 15 year old Valieva)

I guarantee Valieva will be more talked about, more watched, have more fans, bring in bigger crowds, create more interest in the sport than any 2026 Olympic gold medalist Malinin included over the next four years.

And I also very much doubt that either Kaori or Alysa will ever feel their WC medals are hollow.

Self-delusion is strong in many people. If they see it as a reward for years of effort then sure enjoy it. But they can't tell themselves they are the best skater in the world because they won an Olympic gold. And that's a shame for the sport and the Olympics.

 

[Skating91]

She'll be remembered first and foremost for the soap opera scandal at Beijing.

I am not saying that out of dislike - I am indifferent to her - or without agreeing that she might regain some or much of the skill and reputation (with a caveat) she had before the strawberry dessert. I am just looking at how history operates.

There's an Australian cricketer who was an admitted drug cheat, accepted money from bookmakers, yet had a stand and awards named after him. I think you need to step back and put things into perspective here.

No-one even talks about Sinner admitting to an anti-doping rule violation in tennis, and this was less than two years ago, and Swiatek busted for the same substance that 15 year old Valieva had in her system. These are people worth tens of millions and can find ways to fight their way out of these cases one way or another, Valieva was just a 15 year old girl.

 

[SmileHappy34]

That is what's wrong and sad . Politics has no place in sports but does affect sports.
Within each business is the political pull to get ahead .
The motto stronger, faster, higher doesn't state how to get there .it does allow poltics
Olympic is sponsored. Business dealings are poltics within itself.
Businesses are known or advertise for faster service, stronger products , higher standards that the business (idviduals) don't necessarily follow.
They have own policy and procedures the(employees) workers follow that work within the company's own standard of faster , swifter, higher, stronger, motto's.

 

[dorispulaski]

If they were "girls," they would not be competing in the Olympic Women's competition. If they are eligible for the competition, they are same ages as the women competing.

 

[lariko]

I don't know if not stepping on the International ice is what hits "the hardest". I could name a few bigger tragedies in life.

This is the only specific effect of the ban. Other tragedies and injustices are not caused by it.

 

[gkelly]

If they were "girls," they would not be competing in the Olympic Women's competition. If they are eligible for the competition, they are same ages as the women competing.

Well, they are within the permissible age range for senior competition. Which 4 years ago was 15 up till body/finances/motivation gives out, and now it's 17 up to those reasons for stopping.

Some will be toward the bottom of the eligible age range and others will be older. They're not all the same age. But typically not over 30 especially in women's singles.

 

[Karoltyna]

There's an Australian cricketer who was an admitted drug cheat, accepted money from bookmakers, yet had a stand and awards named after him. I think you need to step back and put things into perspective here.

No-one even talks about Sinner admitting to an anti-doping rule violation in tennis, and this was less than two years ago, and Swiatek busted for the same substance that 15 year old Valieva had in her system. These are people worth tens of millions and can find ways to fight their way out of these cases one way or another, Valieva was just a 15 year old girl.

While Sinner rubs me wrong, Świątek was able to prove that this substance was in her system by accident, also she didn't try to blame her supposedly existing grandfather for it. Valieva wasn't alone, she had access to professional legal support but if a case is weak, the best lawyers can't do much.

 

[lariko]

And they are free to skate within their own country. Where they are relatively safe and have big competitive field. The world does not revolve around them.

The world doesn't revolve around any particular skater or country. World is, however, composed of all countries and all athletes. Figure skating reminds us every time we watch competition that there is an exclusion from competition on unfair basis. It is fair to exclude someone who didn't qualify. It is fair to exclude someone who breaks rules. It is unfair to exclude someone because of their government. That makes competition toxic before it starts. Hence, my point -- this cycle sucked.

It was never about clean athletes or judging or even the sport itself. It was about russian invasion on Ukraine.

It is administered by a sports' organization who ostensibly have oversight of all athletes. Unless Russian figure skaters along with their Belorussian counterparts invaded Ukraine, ISU has the duty to represent their interests. They failed in that duty again and again over 4 years. What's more, they retroactively extended the ban backward in time prior to 2022 by wiping out Russian skaters, medalists and champions from their media. It's just not right.

Again, Belorussia. Belorussia is banned because it has insufficient ability to prevent Russian government from waging wars. In this case, ban the rest of the world, because the rest of the world was just as ineffectual in stopping Russian aggression against Ukraine while wielding colossal resources.

 

[frompolandwithlove]

This is the only specific effect of the ban. Other tragedies and injustices are not caused by it.

Sure. But if that is the biggest problem in their lives, they can consider themselves the lucky ones.

 

[lariko]

Valieva's case was argued in courts and hearings and resolved. She has served out the penalty for a positive detection of a forbidden substance in her urine. She can now compete. Her coach is and has been welcomed by the ISU and the figure skating world at every competition for the entire period of 2022-2026.