Interesting/challenging names in skating

[cl2]

Thanks for this....I didn't realize that two very different sounding Chinese names were being given the same English transliteration under the new system....

http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/blog/pu...d-of-Russian-player-names-as-w?urn=nhl-319522

Sigh...I thought I was doing well to keep track of the various transliterations through the successive generations of immigration to NA, and the differences in ideograms for the top names.

I think our point was that the Anglicized "zh" from French and Russian aren't the same as that in Chinese, but when a given letter combination is used to transliterate different sounds from various major languages, we end up with a number of persistent, but awful mispronounciations.

Sometimes I feel as though the folks that come up with these systems aren't trying to meet those of us who are sincerely trying to get it right half way.

And here is an article, and link to a pdf, with the solution that the IHF came up with for Russian Hockey Players. Could the ISU take this on for skaters? And not just for Russian?

http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/blog/pu...d-of-Russian-player-names-as-w?urn=nhl-319522

There is a difference between the adopted system of transliteration from Russian to English described in the yahoo article, and the romanization of Chinese names. Pinyin, the official romanization system for Mandarin, was developed by the Chinese government in the 1950s, and is by now widely adopted for use whenever romanization is needed. This means that Chinese names these days are often transcribed to roman alphabet according to pinyin. There are phonetic rules for pronouncing pinyin, which for the most part bear similarity to English pronunciation but (evidently) have some notable differences. But, once you learn pinyin, there are no exceptions to the rule whatsoever (unlike, the many exceptions in English, or how transcriptions done by various individuals can vary).

Having said that, it is not always the case that Chinese names are transcribed using pinyin. This is particularly true in places with strong influence from other dialects of Chinese or less strong influence from the Chinese government (e.g. Hong Kong or outside of China), and also for the older generation who haven't gotten round to adopting pinyin. For example, my given name is spelt "Chia" on my passport, but in pinyin it would be "Jia", and furthermore if you didn't know how to pronounce that in pinyin, chances are you'll pronounce my name wrong anyway. (OK, I'm not that old; my parents, who named me, are the old ones.) So these are the situations where one would forgive some butchering of names.

 

[TGee]

But what about Lubov's first name? (I have wondered about it for a long time. Your post is the perfect excuse for me to finally ask about it. )

Is it not Любовь in Russian? Common first name (meaning "love").
If so, the first syllable would be pronounced as "lyu-".

Does she pronounce it as "lu-" instead???
Or does she pronounce it as "lyu-", but spell it as "lu-"???

---

ETA:


Forgot to say that I see the mods already have granted your wish re the pronouncers thread over in the reference forum.

Thank you, mods .

It could be Lyubov or Liubov (as it mysteriously appeared at Nebelhorn).

But the transcriptions of vowels aren't rigid as their pronunciation varies due to stress and a number of other factors. The 'y' sound leading into various vowels isn't always voiced as strongly depending on such as whether it's the first sound in a word, whether it's a stressed syllable or what consonant it's combined with.

With the soft "l", Lubov a soft sounding name. So, Lubov is chosen by many to avoid English speakers over stressing and saying "Lyou-ba".

For another familiar example, what's usually written as Evgeni, could be written Yevgyeni as the Russian 'e' has a slight 'y' at the beginning. But that "y" really only stands out at beginning of the name. So, the IHA proposal for the simplest spelling that would give English speakers a close pronounciation is "Yevgeni." Without the 'y', an English speaker who hasn't heard the name aloud would say it with a soft 'ev' as in 'ever' rather than a 'y' as in 'yes'. But a second 'y' would not help on balance. Some transliteration protocols just say to write 'ye' for the Russian 'e' at the beginnings of words, otherwise use 'e'.

Interestingly, the French write it "Yevgaeni" to avoid an incorrect softening of the g.

And it's interesting to know about Pinyin as the official romanization of Chinese. I had picked up on the official part, but still am puzzled about why something was developed that is so difficult for speakers of the major European languages to decode.

 

[Mathman]

And while immigrants to North America no longer have the spellings of their names decided by immigration staff at Staton Island and Pier 21,…

My grandfather owned the general store in a tiny farming community in (the U.S. state of) North Dakota around the turn of the twentieth century. When new immigrant "Bohunks" arrived ("Bohemians," actually Poles and Ukrainians), the first thing they did was catch a ride to town and sign up for a line of credit at the store. Granddad spelled out their names phonetically as best he could, and that served as the only legal document bearing their names.

[T]he official romanization system for Mandarin, was developed by the Chinese government in the 1950s, and is by now widely adopted for use whenever romanization is needed.

When I studied Chinese briefly in (U.S.) college in the 1960s, we were taught using the Wade-Giles system (developed in the 1800s by Western scholars). Our texts were from "Nationalist China" (Taiwan). I remember that the first sentence we had to translate was, "When we return to the mainland, everything will be fine."

 

[cl2]

And it's interesting to know about Pinyin as the official romanization of Chinese. I had picked up on the official part, but still am puzzled about why something was developed that is so difficult for speakers of the major European languages to decode.

I'm not sure how they decided on the current version of pinyin, but no doubt they had to contend with transcribing phonetics that do not exist in other languages. Nonetheless, you gotta agree, it's much easier than Chinese characters.

 

[Krunchii]

I'm not sure how they decided on the current version of pinyin, but no doubt they had to contend with transcribing phonetics that do not exist in other languages. Nonetheless, you gotta agree, it's much easier than Chinese characters.

I swear I'm the only person like this but I'm so bad at pinyin, I was always better at recognizing characters, I think it's because I'm bad with tones. Back in school when we had "spelling tests" in Chinese class we had to write the character and the correct pinyin with the tone and I would get perfect on everything except for the tone

To add onto the subject at hand, Cong Han is a name that always gets mispronounced by announcers, they always say Cong as Kong with a hard 'C' but the C is pronounced more like "ts" so the correct pronunciation would be like Ts-oong. Here's me saying his name but my microphone is bad and makes me sound really muffled but I hope that gives everyone an idea of how his name is actually pronounced.

 

[ice coverage]

It could be Lyubov or Liubov (as it mysteriously appeared at Nebelhorn).

But the transcriptions of vowels aren't rigid as their pronunciation varies due to stress and a number of other factors. The 'y' sound leading into various vowels isn't always voiced as strongly depending on such as whether it's the first sound in a word, whether it's a stressed syllable or what consonant it's combined with.

With the soft "l", Lubov a soft sounding name. So, Lubov is chosen by many to avoid English speakers over stressing and saying "Lyou-ba". ...

Not a native speaker, but am surprised that the Лю- in Любовь is supposed to sound all that different from the -лю- in Илюшечкина???

I would think that the instinct of most non-speakers of Russian would be to pronounce Luba as loo-ba, which would be jarring to my ear.
So for Dylan's partner, I wish that her own preferred transcription were Lyuba or Liuba. Just my two cents.

ETA:

That said, I am a strong believer that anyone is allowed to set the correct spelling/transcription/pronunciation of her/his own name. What others think is "right" or "wrong" does not matter.​

Anyway, thanks for your reply.

 

[TGee]

To add onto the subject at hand, Cong Han is a name that always gets mispronounced by announcers, they always say Cong as Kong with a hard 'C' but the C is pronounced more like "ts" so the correct pronunciation would be like Ts-oong. Here's me saying his name but my microphone is bad and makes me sound really muffled but I hope that gives everyone an idea of how his name is actually pronounced.

Thanks for this....

And in the layering of Chinese heritage that is the West Coast of NA, I am reminded of friends and classmates growing up with names written as Tse and Tsong or Thong. And those were generally mispronounced as "Say", 'Sahng' and 'Tong'. But now I'll be better at correlating them with the newer Pinyin versions.

Actually, while the 'ts' sound isn't a natural one for English speakers (except at the end of words such as bets, let's), it's common enough in other languages that are transliterated into English that the Pinyin "C" definitely gives me "a what were they thinking of reaction." Good thing I veered away from linguistics even if I love learning languages.

Examples:

Coast Salish and other indigenous languages -- place names such as Tswassen, Tsoona in British Columbia mispronounced as T-wasssen and Soona.

Tsunami -- an imported Japanese word well understood in English

Russian and Ukrainian letter ц which is pronounced 'ts'.

 

[cl2]

Thanks for this....

And in the layering of Chinese heritage that is the West Coast of NA, I am reminded of friends and classmates growing up with names written as Tse and Tsong or Thong. And those were generally mispronounced as "Say", 'Sahng' and 'Tong'. But now I'll be better at correlating them with the newer Pinyin versions.

Actually, while the 'ts' sound isn't a natural one for English speakers (except at the end of words such as bets, let's), it's common enough in other languages that are transliterated into English that the Pinyin "C" definitely gives me "a what were they thinking of reaction." Good thing I veered away from linguistics even if I love learning languages.

Examples:

Coast Salish and other indigenous languages -- place names such as Tswassen, Tsoona in British Columbia mispronounced as T-wasssen and Soona.

Tsunami -- an imported Japanese word well understood in English

Russian and Ukrainian letter ц which is pronounced 'ts'.

With regard to the 'c' sound in pinyin, I would try to rationalize it this way. (Disclaimer, I'm not a linguist myself)

There are two similar-sounding consonants represented in pinyin as 'c' and 'ch'. The latter, 'ch', is identical to English (as in "church"). Now, try dropping the 'h' while saying "church"---that is, don't blow air through your vocal cavity while pronouncing 'ch'. There, you get the 'c' sound.

 

[TGee]

With regard to the 'c' sound in pinyin, I would try to rationalize it this way. (Disclaimer, I'm not a linguist myself)

There are two similar-sounding consonants represented in pinyin as 'c' and 'ch'. The latter, 'ch', is identical to English (as in "church"). Now, try dropping the 'h' while saying "church"---that is, don't blow air through your vocal cavity while pronouncing 'ch'. There, you get the 'c' sound.

Thanks for indulging my , and for the explanation. I can appreciate the evolution....

And out to ice coverage, I'm with you on the perspective that people should be able to chose the spelling of their name they want. I suggested earlier in the thread that the ISU should either ask skaters how they wish their names to be pronounced (first best) or come up with a better transliteration protocol (second best) along the lines of the IHA approach.

In my experience, some will want to go with the usual way, others a cool and new one. Some will seek to a avoid the mispronunciation that is most offensive or annoying to them. Others will put themselves in the hands of a translator and hope for the best.

And I've noticed that their are others who will change their names. Some just use a similar English one, some will add a completely new one.

But I don't think skaters have that option....But swimmers seem to. There was an American swimmer at Rio who had her name corrected to the name she goes by "Maia" rather than the name on her birth certificate...

 

[Alexz]

Just a quick tutorial on how to actually pronounce some Korean surnames and Korean skaters, if anyone is curious:
Kim--> Gim (to be more precise, it's Geem, but with the vowel sound spoken very quickly)
Park--> Bak
Yoo--> You (this one isn't botched as much and happens to be my last name)
Lee--> Ee
Lim--> Eem (said quickly)
Choi--> Che (rhymes with heh and meh)
Cha --> Cha (cha cha cha)
Any I sound by itself is actually an ee sound but said really really quickly. Like you're stabbing the syllable.
U sounds usually rhyme with bun, and will be listed as "eo" below unless otherwise specified.

Eunsoo Lim --> the EU is pronounced as the vowel sound in rook or Brooke. Eem (short) Eun Soo.
Jun Hwan Cha --> Hwan rhymes with Kwan and Jun rhymes with Moon. Cha Joon Hwan.
Yuna Kim --> Yun rhymes with bun. Geem (short) Yeon Ah.
Soyoun Park --> Youn is a misspelling and is the same letter as the Yun in Yuna's name. Bak Soh Yeon.
Dabin Choi --> Pretty straight-forward. Che Dah Been (short).
June-hyoung Lee --> June is the same as Jun in JHC's name and hyoung rhymes with young. It's not hyoong. Ee Joon Hyeong.
Jin-seo Kim --> Seo is pronounced suh- rhymes with mud. Geem (short) Jeen (short) Seo.
Yelim Kim --> Lim is a misspelling and should be an R sound. Geem (short) Yeh Reem (short).
Byun Se-Jong --> Jong is closer to owe or mow, not long or song. Similar to eau in French. Byeon Seh Johng.
Na-Hyun Kim--> Straight forward. Hyun rhymes with Byun. Geem (short) Nah Hyeon.
You Young --> Exactly what you think. It's worth noting, however, that You is her last name. You Yeong.

Wow. Thank you! We need more posts like this. :cheers

 

[pETEs (Sasha Fan)]

"Rittberger". That's how the Loop jump is referred to in Europe, named after German skater and three-times World Silver Medalist Werner Rittberger, who first did the move back in 1910.

Now, imagine if the Americans wouldn't make it easy for their tongue. Can you picture Uncle Dick and Auntie Peggy going like: "Oh, and here comes this little brat Tara moment to spoil the life and career of Michelle with the... triple Roushcn... triple Rottenschfeitz... oh my God... triple ritsorberg... Whatever... Triple Rittberger? That is... It's a Triple Rittborscher-Triple... Damn!"

 

[Pracygr]

If you can pronounce "hamburger" you shouldn't have much trouble saying "Rittberger", and I can't imagine many Americans having problems with the former. In fact "writ-burger" gives you more or less exactly the needed word. On the other hand shortening that word for quicker delivery might prove problematic, since neither "triple writ" nor "triple burger" would sound appropriate during broadcast...

 

[surimi]

"triple burger"

I actually love this one! :agree:

 

[Pracygr]

"Yuzuru Hanyu - the first man to land quadburger in competition".

 

[Rina RUS]

Btw., even Russians themselves have two version of transcription: Julia (informal) and Juliia (formal)!

These are not two version of transcription.

"Yuliya" is a full name. (Mikhail, Evgenia, Elizaveta)
"Yulya" is a short name (Misha, Zhenya, Liza)

In Russian the longer "Yuliya" has more sounds, when we pronounce it. I like not to replace short names with full names in other cases, but I don't try to show whether people say full "Yuliya" or short "Yulya", because I think it is useless.

the short name is nearly Yula, but "l" is "soft"
(I think those who don't speak Russian anyway won't pronounce it like we do)

You can hear the difference between "hard l" and "soft l":
"lo" - "lyo"
"la" - "lya"
"lu" - "lyu" and etc.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yq40DhYgLpE&t=7m21s
In English such soft "l" is rare.
I think in the word "English" "li" sounds absolutely like Russian "li".

 

[anonymoose_au]

I always found Anton Sikharulidze really hard to say, which made reading the book The Second Mark hard because every time his name popped up it sounded like "Anton Seekhardblblbl" in my head