The Underrotated Jumps of Evgenia Medvedeva

[Blades of Passion]

There is no ethnic based attack going on. I criticize people equally from everywhere. You simply have a huge problem with Russian skaters being criticized and blatantly wrong judging in favor of Russians being pointed out. Continue to bury your head in the sand if you want; trying to use Sotnikova as an example of bias on my part will get you nowhere. Her underrotated jump, flutz, and step sequence mistakes at the Olympics (in addition to an inaccurate step sequence call for her competitor) still haven't changed and everyone knows it was wrong.

 

[KatGrace1925]

From what I have seen in this thread pre-rotation is a problem not being delt with much by the current judging system.

Conversations like these can help raise awareness and get this kind of stuff changed. I love watching skaters from all over, this seems to be a pretty widespread problem around the world. I honestly had no idea Evgenia had any pre rotation until I saw those gifs, she hides it really well amidst fast rotation. This is as fair an issue to bring up as Gracie's lip and other skaters underrotations. None of this is about hating on Evgenia.

 

[largeman]

I compiled a list of threads that discussed the issue of prerotation, for my own reference. I thought I'd post it here too in case others are interested.

Why ISU doesn't punish these jump cases (Oct 2016)

Thoughts on Satoko Miyahara's skating (Aug 2016)

Pre-rotation (Apr 2016)

Evgenia Medvedeva's 3S-3T-3T-3T (Apr 2016)

"Your" scoring of the 2016 Worlds' Ladies (Apr 2016)

2016 Four Continents Ladies Free Skate (Feb 2016)

2015-16 Grand Prix Final Ladies Free Skate (Dec 2015)

Asada v. Tuktamysheva: 2015-16 (Oct 2015)

Pre-Rotation Questions (Mar 2014)

Last but not least,
Slow Motion Jump Editing (AKA: Sam's Jump-a-ma-tron) (the thread went full-on pre-rotation talk starting at this page)

 

[largeman]

People are not going to stop talking about this issue until something is done that resembles some kind of fairness in judging.

Yes, of course it is natural to have some pre-rotation. Frank Carroll says so too. In almost all triple/quadruple salchows and loops, the blade leaves the ice facing forward (~180 degrees before the blade completely leaves the ice), and that's most often the case with toeloops too.

What's the big fuss we are making here? It's the unfair scoring when two skaters have the same amount of revolutions in the air, but one gets full BV plus +GOE for all the nice qualities of the jump, while the other gets 0.7*BV and an automatic -1 to -2 GOE. This occurs as a result of only looking at the ending point of the rotation, but not the starting point.

Let's consider (sorry, more slo-mo gifs):

Mao Asada's 2A-3T at Worlds 2016 free skate: the 3T had about 2.25 revolutions in the air, maybe more. Tech panel calls it UR, BV goes from 4.73 to 3.30 and GOE goes from +1.4 to -0.29. She loses 3.12 points over this tech call.

Evgenia Medvedeva's 3S-3T at Worlds 2016 free skate: the 3T also had 2.25 revolutions in the air, maybe even less. She gets full BV of 4.73 and keeps her +1.4 GOE.

 

[jenm]

The problem is when only one skater is used to point out a system failing and the op doing the same thing to sotnikova. There is an ethnic based attack going on.

No. Satoko has also been criticized for her excessive pre-rotation. Quite a lot actually. Gracie with her Lips and stiffness. Ashley with URs and sometimes pre-rotation. Mao with URs as well. It's really not about race nor about these skaters. This is about the tech panel giving questionable calls to others whilst possibly ignoring the fault of others. And the judges using GOEs and PCS to boost whoever they favor at the moment. Just because Evgenia is a Russian and her uncalled UR was used to point out the faulty system doesn't mean people are attacking her based on her ethnicity.

 

[ioanna]

I remember reading that a lot of Arakawa's doubles were heavily pre-rotated, especially in her 3/2/2 combos.

When she won 2004 Worlds she did a 3Lz-3T-2Lo combo and I remember her 3T looking both prerotated and underrotated.
https://youtu.be/drYtIDzcrF0?t=10m15s

 

[TGee]

Just because Evgenia is a Russian and her uncalled UR was used to point out the faulty system doesn't mean people are attacking her based on her ethnicity.

I can agree that there is no question that BOP did NOT intend it as an anti-Russian attack. And I sincerely believe that he chose Medvedeva because she is the world champion and she exemplifies something that he sees as a problem in the current IJS.

BUT...that assessment of mine is based on having read enough of BOP's posts. He seems to have a very strong ideal of what he would like skating to be and expresses it vigorously.

I've seen enough of BOP's posts to know that there are many Russian skaters that he holds up as positive examples of things he values. I suspect that on many points, the Mishin school most represents BOP's ideal given which Russian skaters he's held up as examples of excellence in the past.

And I've read fairly strong critiques from BOP across a wide range of nationalities, including Americans, on points he feels are problematic.

Nonetheless, in my view the reader shouldn't have to know the poster to be able to be reassured that the intent was to have a neutral technical discussion.

There have been other discussions on GS that were not so genuinely intended....or that have encouraged ethnic attacks, even if unintentionally. So, we have GS guidelines around that.

I still believe that that it would behave been better to title the thread along the lines of "Under-rotated jumps: Do the jumps of Evgenia Medvedeva reflect a problematic judging trend?" and to have added some of the other skaters that BOP has critiqued into the OP.

That is why I said early in this thread that I felt it was a fair point for BOP to have raised, but that by singling out one skater in the OP, even if she is World Champion, it might discourage Russian fans from joining in.

And they agreed that it can be chilling, and several of us feel that to keep this forum multinational we may need to go out of our way a bit to reassure folks of our even-handedness.

I'm sorry if BOP has felt that his neutrality was attacked in this. He really does consistently show that he loves the sport and wants it to improve. I don't always agree with him, but recognize that his passion is sincere.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

https://youtu.be/uxBsR3Ghrb4?t=58s

Hail Nathan! :luv17:

That's a good example of minimal pre-rotation but there is still some. What I'm saying is, the single flip jumps in that ISU videos is not a good example of how most 3F/4F jumps are executed, because, unless you get enough of a vault going straight up (like how the stronger men get on their 3F/3Z), you usually need some pre-rotation on the ice at the start of generating your rotation. Very few can generate enough height off the pick that they can vault straight up and then start to rotate.. Jin on his quad lutz for example.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Carolina's 3 toe does have the so called "pre-rotation" that you guys been talking about. You can clearly see it. She turns 1/2 on the ice. I don't see the difference among the skaters you guys accuse of pre-rotating and Carolina Kostner's triple Toe.

I think bestolen is referring to the 3F, which does not have pre-rotation off the pick. Which is why I said almost every lady. There's obviously a couple exceptions, Kostner having a giant 3F is one of the few who doesn't have to pre-rotate her 3F because she gets enough of an upwards vault off of her pick that she doesn't need to rely on pre-rotation in order to start generating rotational momentum.

 

[Meoima]

That's a good example of minimal pre-rotation but there is still some. What I'm saying is, the single flip jumps in that ISU videos is not a good example of how most 3F/4F jumps are executed, because, unless you get enough of a vault going straight up (like how the stronger men get on their 3F/3Z), you usually need some pre-rotation on the ice at the start of generating your rotation. Very few can generate enough height off the pick that they can vault straight up and then start to rotate.. Jin on his quad lutz for example.

My point is, shouldn't the aim of learning technique is to have minimum pre rotation like Boyang, Nathan, Carolina...?

 

[jenaj]

I don't have time to read through this whole thread. I can only say that I am already tired of the "green eye-shade" approach to judging skating. I don't want some other thing that is nearly invisible to the naked eye for judges to scrutinize in super slo-mo. I also think this gives the technical controller too much power. As someone said, facetiously, of course, before you had to bribe six judges; now you only have to bribe one.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I don't want some other thing that is nearly invisible to the naked eye for judges to scrutinize in super slo-mo.

Most of the very pre-rotated jumps we see are small and otherwise not very well executed in the first place. Even though the flaw may not be visible, and I admit that in real time I am unable to see Satoko's pre-rotation, the slo-mo can confirm another aspect of a jump that was poorly executed. I don't think the tech panel needs to go as far as counting degrees of rotation like some have suggested, but simply enforcing prerotation <= 0.5 and <= 0.25 at the end with the use of replay would be nice.

 

[Blades of Passion]

I don't want some other thing that is nearly invisible to the naked eye for judges to scrutinize in super slo-mo.

It's not invisible to the naked eye, though? You can see the skater twisting into it rather than vaulting up. The jump doesn't look like it should. I loved the poster who said it looks like the skater is doing the "Y" in the YMCA when they jump like this, then gave an example of how graceful and refined a jump of Michelle Kwan's was in comparison. In the modern days we see Tuktamysheva having that still upper body (and tons of amplitude) when she jumps. She is doing it correctly. If you can't do something correctly then you shouldn't be rewarded for it. That's all there is to it. Medvedeva can't jump as well as many others and she shouldn't be scored as if she is the best jumper in the World. She isn't.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

My point is, shouldn't the aim of learning technique is to have minimum pre rotation like Boyang, Nathan, Carolina...?

Yes... but there's also accepting the fact that not every skater has the athletic/natural ability to execute jumps like they do. You can't teach 100% of skaters, 100% perfect technique. Satoko Miyahara isn't going to get the same spring as Carolina Kostner, and thus she has to execute her jumps as best she can.

It's like skaters who flutz, they can try to learn proper technique or rework their technique but whether it's habitual or the skater just can't figure it out, they might not be technically textbook. This isn't to say they shouldn't be called on technical flaws, but there needs to be some variation in what people consider textbook and dismissing anyone who doesn't have textbook technique. That's why 1/4 rotation on landings exist - because not everyone is able to land jumps fully rotated around.... even if the AIM of learning technique should be to have landings that are fully rotated a la Gold (and not within 1/4 on the landing).

 

[whatif]

I can agree that there is no question that BOP did NOT intend it as an anti-Russian attack. And I sincerely believe that he chose Medvedeva because she is the world champion and she exemplifies something that he sees as a problem in the current IJS.

BUT...that assessment of mine is based on having read enough of BOP's posts. He seems to have a very strong ideal of what he would like skating to be and expresses it vigorously.

I've seen enough of BOP's posts to know that there are many Russian skaters that he holds up as positive examples of things he values. I suspect that on many points, the Mishin school most represents BOP's ideal given which Russian skaters he's held up as examples of excellence in the past.

And I've read fairly strong critiques from BOP across a wide range of nationalities, including Americans, on points he feels are problematic.

Nonetheless, in my view the reader shouldn't have to know the poster to be able to be reassured that the intent was to have a neutral technical discussion.

There have been other discussions on GS that were not so genuinely intended....or that have encouraged ethnic attacks, even if unintentionally. So, we have GS guidelines around that.

I still believe that that it would behave been better to title the thread along the lines of "Under-rotated jumps: Do the jumps of Evgenia Medvedeva reflect a problematic judging trend?" and to have added some of the other skaters that BOP has critiqued into the OP.

That is why I said early in this thread that I felt it was a fair point for BOP to have raised, but that by singling out one skater in the OP, even if she is World Champion, it might discourage Russian fans from joining in.

And they agreed that it can be chilling, and several of us feel that to keep this forum multinational we may need to go out of our way a bit to reassure folks of our even-handedness.

I'm sorry if BOP has felt that his neutrality was attacked in this. He really does consistently show that he loves the sport and wants it to improve. I don't always agree with him, but recognize that his passion is sincere.

I don't remember any of the positive things you mentioning. I also have a misfortune of being aware of his worldviews from his posts also on other forums.

 

[Blades of Passion]

^ I'm pretty sure you don't know hardly anything about me. Take your misconceptions and your fabricated tangent somewhere else.

There's also accepting the fact that not every skater has the athletic/natural ability to execute jumps like they do. You can't teach 100% of skaters, 100% perfect technique. Satoko Miyahara isn't going to get the same spring as Carolina Kostner, and thus she has to execute her jumps as best she can.

Tara Lipinski was a tiny skater and yet she was able to fully-rotated Flips and Lutzes without much pre-rotation.

If you can't do something, then you can't do something. That's the point of competition - showing who can do something the best. Not everyone can be a pro basketball player or opera singer or whatever it is they might to do in life. It's called talent. People simply lack the ability to do certain things. Nobody can do everything and some feats in life are attainable only by a small amount of people.

As you say, there is indeed already the 1/4 turn allowance. So any additional pre-rotation that is more than acceptable needs to be accounted for within that 1/4 of a turn allowance for the jump's entire rotation.

 

[qwertyskates]

What's the problem? She will work harder.:agree:

That attitude alone is priceless, go Girl!

 

[stryke]

Let's all guess what the thread is going to be after she wins France.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Got an email from Judge Wapamatron today

https://youtu.be/d7trtu3Kj6g

It's Zhenia's the 3f-3t from the Skate Canada SP available up to 1080p HD.

All it said was "Zhenia got ups yo!" and "the Tech Panel should stay out of this one" with a recommended sentence of -1 GOE after all of the positives were added up but not required to be negative for any judge who felt uneasy about the jump.

Don't shoot the messenger

 

[ks777]

People are not going to stop talking about this issue until something is done that resembles some kind of fairness in judging.

Yes, of course it is natural to have some pre-rotation. Frank Carroll says so too. In almost all triple/quadruple salchows and loops, the blade leaves the ice facing forward (~180 degrees before the blade completely leaves the ice), and that's most often the case with toeloops too.

What's the big fuss we are making here? It's the unfair scoring when two skaters have the same amount of revolutions in the air, but one gets full BV plus +GOE for all the nice qualities of the jump, while the other gets 0.7*BV and an automatic -1 to -2 GOE. This occurs as a result of only looking at the ending point of the rotation, but not the starting point.

Let's consider (sorry, more slo-mo gifs):

Mao Asada's 2A-3T at Worlds 2016 free skate: the 3T had about 2.25 revolutions in the air, maybe more. Tech panel calls it UR, BV goes from 4.73 to 3.30 and GOE goes from +1.4 to -0.29. She loses 3.12 points over this tech call.

Evgenia Medvedeva's 3S-3T at Worlds 2016 free skate: the 3T also had 2.25 revolutions in the air, maybe even less. She gets full BV of 4.73 and keeps her +1.4 GOE.

How Ironic. When Mao was younger, Yuna fans called Mao's jumps cheated because they had the so called pre-rotation compare to Yuna's jumps. Now her jumps are used as a good example.. I remember getting into arguments with the hard core Yuna bots. I was on Mao's side of course. It's weird. Mao's jump technique is very similar to Shoma's since they had the same coach growing up yet now it's being used as a good example.. ok.