2016-2017 State of U.S. Men Figure Skating

[Jammers]

Nathan and Vincent are the future of US Men's skating. Quads are essential now and these kids are starting much earlier to learn them then just a few years ago. Thank goodness their coaches have gotten the hint and are pushing these kids because it's already paying dividends. And you have Andrew Torgashev and Alexei Krasnozhan in the pipeline who are only 16 and 15 and are landing quads. It is going to be quite a battle in the years to come with these kids.

 

[el henry]

I don't care about the future of the US men, as much as I care about the now. Jason is our best hope of a top ten finish at Worlds.

Jason cannot be dismissed as "skating pretty". Jason maximizes the steps and the spins to their utmost, which takes skill, highly honed competitive instincts and smarts. On what planet is his 3A not solid? F course, all the other top.quadsters have such solid 3As Vincent has managed one impressive jump and has been competing senior for one year. What is the rush?

I have been on the Andrew Torgashev bandwagon since 2014 (check the threads). Again, what's the rush? I like seeing the kids coming up, but I don't understand the attitude: OK, 21 year olds, you're washed up, here's a 16 year old heh heh heh.

Maybe because I understand washed up

 

[bekalc]

I don't care about the future of the US men, as much as I care about the now. Jason is our best hope of a top ten finish at Worlds.

Jason cannot be dismissed as "skating pretty". Jason maximizes the steps and the spins to their utmost, which takes skill, highly honed competitive instincts and smarts. On what planet is his 3A not solid. Vincent has managed one impressive jump and has been competing senior for one year. What is the rush?

I have been on the Andrew Torgashev bandwagon since 2014 (check the threads). Again, what's the rush? I like seeing the kids coming up, but I don't understand the attitude: OK, 21 year olds, you're washed up, here's a 16 year old heh heh heh.

Maybe because I understand washed up

If Jason had the technical content of Hanyu no one would be saying it. He had the lowest base value of the top 12. If Brown skated for a less powerful fed, he would be buried. At this point its questionable if he will ever have those quads. So why not give the opportunity to the kids who have technical content that indicates they can be competitive on the world stage. This way they can build an international reputation.

Kwan and Tara they benefited greatly from getting out there at young ages. And I am not convinced Brown's our best hope of a top ten finish. Zhou's total point score at Bavarian with mistakes is higher than Brown's.

 

[Mrs. P]

Honestly it's not going to kill Vincent's career if he has to wait another year to go to Worlds. And Vincent has a chance to get more ranking points and an automatic GP berth by having a higher placement at Jr. Worlds. And I feel that junior worlds had a much higher profile than it did in Michelle or Tara's day.

As for Jason, he'll do what he can. But his past history shows he tends to peak at the end of the season.

 

[Willard]

Is Jason really the present? He was beaten by Vincent at nationals. Vincent had stronger scores in Germany. Be realistic about the technical content he is doing now and that he has ever performed in competition, how he is scoring, and what will happen when he competes against everyone in the world. Javi, D10, a couple of Russians, and one other, and even if Nathan were to win, Jason would not earn US 3 places. He is not progressing and is not competitive with the top skaters.

 

[skatinggold]

Why should Vincent wait? He earned his place in Nationals. He will score better than a quadless Jason. Tell Jason to wait until he gets a stable quad.

 

[bekalc]

Honestly it's not going to kill Vincent's career if he has to wait another year to go to Worlds. And Vincent has a chance to get more ranking points and an automatic GP berth by having a higher placement at Jr. Worlds. And I feel that junior worlds had a much higher profile than it did in Michelle or Tara's day.

As for Jason, he'll do what he can. But his past history shows he tends to peak at the end of the season.

Once again Vincent. Beat. Jason. At Nationals. He also showed here at Bavarian Open, that him scoring higher than Jason-is No. Fluke.

Its one thing to say well this skater is inconsistent and this skater has medaled at the GPF, placed within top 5 in the world multiple times. So we will overlook Nationals.

It's another thing to say a skater who has shown repeatedly he's well behind the reset of the world technically. Who has one GP medal this season, and another not so great result.

Should automatically go over a New Senior- just because the new senior is new. I think its foolish.

 

[TontoK]

Honestly it's not going to kill Vincent's career if he has to wait another year to go to Worlds. And Vincent has a chance to get more ranking points and an automatic GP berth by having a higher placement at Jr. Worlds. And I feel that junior worlds had a much higher profile than it did in Michelle or Tara's day.

As for Jason, he'll do what he can. But his past history shows he tends to peak at the end of the season.

I agree, but next year I don't want to hear, "How can USFSA possibly send Vincent to the Olympics? He hasn't even been tested at any major events!"

 

[StitchMonkey]

Honestly it's not going to kill Vincent's career if he has to wait another year to go to Worlds. And Vincent has a chance to get more ranking points and an automatic GP berth by having a higher placement at Jr. Worlds. And I feel that junior worlds had a much higher profile than it did in Michelle or Tara's day.

As for Jason, he'll do what he can. But his past history shows he tends to peak at the end of the season.

Yes it it clearly set Nathan so far behind by not getting to go last year.

Really I am not too sure I buy the experience and investment arguments... There are other competitions to do that than worlds. There are no guarantees for the future so we really should live in the present.

I do think Junior Worlds means a lot more now than it did before. Reigning junior medalists going senior are treated very well usually and with a fair amount of prestige. Vincent should focus on junior worlds and making his mark in the fall on the senior circuit. I think he will do just fine. I don't think a poor showing at a debut worlds really helps skaters long term investments that much to be honest.

 

[bekalc]

I agree, but next year I don't want to hear, "How can USFSA possibly send Vincent to the Olympics? He hasn't even been tested at any major events!"

IF Brown fans say that we will scream, and that's the problem.

 

[bekalc]

Yes it it clearly set Nathan so far behind by not getting to go last year.

Really I am not too sure I buy the experience and investment arguments... There are other competitions to do that than worlds. There are no guarantees for the future so we really should live in the present.

I do think Junior Worlds means a lot more now than it did before. Reigning junior medalists going senior are treated very well usually and with a fair amount of prestige. Vincent should focus on junior worlds and making his mark in the fall on the senior circuit. I think he will do just fine. I don't think a poor showing at a debut worlds really helps skaters long term investments that much to be honest.

Tara Lipiniski didn't medal at her first worlds I don't think she finished top 10. Next year she won. Same with lots of skaters. Kwan was 8th. Having that experience can be really helpful. I think its a lot for people to expect Chen to WIN his first worlds. I don't know if a male skater has actually ever DONE That. Even Plushenko who is known as an amazing competitor-took time to get use to the pressure at Worlds. Screwed up a few times medaling rather than winning.

 

[charmblade]

Yes, Jason's technical arsenal is not as high as some of the other men, but he really maximizes his GOE and PCS, which means that in situations where his jumps are off, or where other skaters are having a bad day, (i.e. 4CC), he can still pull out a top 6 finish. The jumps are great to have, but if you miss them you need all the extra points you can earn with your skating skills and spins and steps. Jason has that, others don't. He does a really good job of keeping up the performance level and earning those points in other ways.

 

[StitchMonkey]

I agree, but next year I don't want to hear, "How can USFSA possibly send Vincent to the Olympics? He hasn't even been tested at any major events!"

And this is why the ISU and USFSA should be promoting the GPF as a "major event"!

The Olympics are kinda their own weird thing. Spots are not on the line... it does not affect things long term. Frankly it is easier to select with the heart for the Olympics. I don't recall Jason Brown, Polina Edmunds, or Zhang/Bartholomay getting these comments. Sometimes it just works out that way. Plus Junior Worlds should not be discounted as experience.

 

[FlattFan]

Honestly it's not going to kill Vincent's career if he has to wait another year to go to Worlds. And Vincent has a chance to get more ranking points and an automatic GP berth by having a higher placement at Jr. Worlds. And I feel that junior worlds had a much higher profile than it did in Michelle or Tara's day.

As for Jason, he'll do what he can. But his past history shows he tends to peak at the end of the season.

This is so rude. If you are Vincent, do you want to wait? Jason should not be on the team. No!

 

[Mrs. P]

Once again Vincent. Beat. Jason. At Nationals. He also showed here at Bavarian Open, that him scoring higher than Jason-is No. Fluke.

Its one thing to say well this skater is inconsistent and this skater has medaled at the GPF, placed within top 5 in the world multiple times. So we will overlook Nationals.

It's another thing to say a skater who has shown repeatedly he's well behind the reset of the world technically. Who has one GP medal this season, and another not so great result.

Should automatically go over a New Senior- just because the new senior is new. I think its foolish.

For the record, I will mention that I personally -- even as someone who prefers Jason, though I respect
Vincent and have enjoyed his growth over the years-- would have had no problem if they went with Nationals results and actually was surprised they did go with Jason.

My only point is that Vincent will be fine.

 

[skatinggold]

Zhou needs to go on the senior scene now to get the reputation points so we can have two podium contenders for the Olympics. Invest in the future, the boat has sailed for Jason. He will never medal at Worlds or the Olympics

 

[FlattFan]

Zhou needs to go on the senior scene now to get the reputation points so we can have two podium contenders for the Olympics. Invest in the future, the boat has sailed for Jason. He will never medal at Worlds or the Olympics

He will never medal at GP without USFS meddling. Once USFS drops him like they did to Kimmie, his score will drop like a rock.

 

[StitchMonkey]

Tara Lipiniski didn't medal at her first worlds I don't think she finished top 10. Next year she won. Same with lots of skaters. Kwan was 8th. Having that experience can be really helpful. I think its a lot for people to expect Chen to WIN his first worlds. I don't know if a male skater has actually ever DONE That. Even Plushenko who is known as an amazing competitor-took time to get use to the pressure at Worlds. Screwed up a few times medaling rather than winning.

So what if Nathan does not win worlds? He won 4CC and silver at the GPF... he has proven himself as a legit contender, and he clearly did not need last years worlds to get there. Regardless of if he wins or gets 4th, he still enters as a contender - and good for him! I just don't think he is likely to have done that much better if he had gone to worlds... he was/is good enough he did not need it in the end.

Sure worlds is great experience.... but I don't think it is as critical as some seem to think it is. Nathan can do it without worlds experience, so can others. I just don't think Vincent having a great fall season is that far fetched without worlds this year.

 

[bekalc]

I also have to point out that Jason was put on the team over someone who beat him-outright. When you are placed on the team by selection like that I think its more than fair to bring up your flaws and question the wisdom.

If Jason had beaten Zhou at Nationals people would be like oh he doesn't have a quad, but no one would really be questioning.

I agree with the idea of a Team Selection. But I think it is problematic if Team Selection is used to hold up older skaters. Of course Jason is going to have more experience than Zhou. But Jason has not shown he's been able to overcome his weaknesses. And its always been my concerned Team Selection would do that.

 

[el henry]

Yes it it clearly set Nathan so far behind by not getting to go last year.

Really I am not too sure I buy the experience and investment arguments... There are other competitions to do that than worlds. There are no guarantees for the future so we really should live in the present.

I do think Junior Worlds means a lot more now than it did before. Reigning junior medalists going senior are treated very well usually and with a fair amount of prestige. Vincent should focus on junior worlds and making his mark in the fall on the senior circuit. I think he will do just fine. I don't think a poor showing at a debut worlds really helps skaters long term investments that much to be honest.

Agreed. This isn't so much about what is best for Vincent. It is best for Vincent to slay in Junior Worlds (which is no guarantee, BTW, with some Russian kids and Nic Nadeau there. If he wins JW, that will be quite a coup. He has a lot of competition).

This is just piling on Jason. Been there, done that, got the T shirt. And no one rattling on about Vincent will change my mind about Jason.

I would appreciate, however, that posters concentrate on what has been said, and not attacking some straw person about hypothetical future comments. Not that I think that will happen....

More importantly, it's 63 degrees and sunny here and the snowdrops are out. Why am I in front of computer?