The abhorrent state of PCS judging

[Bcash]

Dont forget that some judges actually gave +3 GOE for his 4Lz+3T and 4F, and the step sequence......while it is very energetic, the edge quality and the smoothness can be better.

I thought his opening combo was very neat. 4F had running edge as well, certainly better than the ones he completed at GPF.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I didn't mean "no links". You would have to select judges from Cameroon, Cambodia & Haiti or other countries without their contestants to make it happen. You complety missed my point.

I know it might be idealistic but I think there should not be judges who are getting paid by their federations, wifes of fed. presidents, vice-presidents of skating federations like it sometimes is.
That encourages them towards being biased even involuntarily so and it's just patriotism I reckon.
Common sense, anyone?


It is conflict of interests and even though ISU has recommendations against it - that thing still happens. Also judges who were judges in 6.0 system - big no to that. They can consider that as a system of ordinals way more than those who only judge COP. Credibility of 6.0 judges is also doubtful as there was constant buzz about bloc judging and other affairs - more than now in fact.

I just think that any proposed changes to the selection of judges isn't going to have a meaningful impact to competition results. It's extremely rare that you have an egregiously high (or low) score that actually counts in the final results. You have 9 countries represented on the judging panel, a tech panel (at Worlds) representing countries who didn't have a top 5 finisher at the previous worlds, and protections to prevent judges participating who have financial conflicts. Judges are human beings who are passionate about the sport and have stylistic preferences; they obviously are going to have favorite skaters and, often, those skaters will be countrymen because the judges know how hard it is to emerge as a top competitor in their country.

 

[Bcash]

I will say this for Michelle Kwan. I was NOT rooting for, or against her in 2001 but, she was amazing . It was the second time I had seen her in person and after her performances in 1999, she had really grown up as a performer. After her skate in the free program....I finally "Got" her. Maybe it was the fact that she wasn't leading that made her perform with more freedom and maturity in the free but, that was the year I became a Kwan fan.

Interesting. I always find her 2001 Worlds LP to be proficient but prosaic and workmanlike, watching it on the screen of course.

 

[gsyzf]

Don't state that as a fact, as it's your speculation and not anything you actually know.
Maybe Yuzuru didn't add 4Lo last season because adding a quad each in SP and LP was adequate progress for one year, while the 4Lo was planned for the follow up season all the time. He did throw it around in galas after all (like he did with the 4S before adding it to his programs). Some people might value steady progression instead of throwing in everything you can do in some form or way.

I assume/believe athletes are rational. They only take risk when it's absolutely necessary (they don't take blind risk) because risks need to be compensated. Many people try different things in practice, but it doesn't mean they will actually try them in competition. Doing new quad in competition is very risky. The skaters' consistency will drop and they face bigger risk of injury. So whoever takes the risk to do new quads in competition is because they feel it's necessary, otherwise it implies they are irrational people. (You can believe people are irrational, but I don't believe anyone is irrational when it comes to their own health and reputation.) If he can't win without 4lo, then he will do 4lo in competition even if his 4lo isn't the most consistent in practice. I just wanted to add to what Drivingmissdaisy already said, that it's not only because other skaters are doing more quads or more difficult quads, but also because the other skaters who are doing more difficult quads become serious threats to Hanyu that he was forced to do new quads in competition.

 

[shiroKJ]

I assume/believe athletes are rational. They only take risk when it's absolutely necessary (they don't take blind risk) because risks need to be compensated. Many people try different things in practice, but it doesn't mean they will actually try them in competition. Doing new quad in competition is very risky. The skaters' consistency will drop and they face bigger risk of injury. So whoever takes the risk to do new quads in competition is because they feel it's necessary, otherwise it implies they are irrational people. (You can believe people are irrational, but I don't believe anyone is irrational when it comes to their own health and reputation.) If he can't win without 4lo, then he will do 4lo in competition even if his 4lo isn't the most consistent in practice. I just wanted to add to what Drivingmissdaisy already said, that it's not only because other skaters are doing more quads or more difficult quads, but also because the other skaters who are doing more difficult quads become serious threats to Hanyu that he was forced to do new quads in competition.

Your oversimplification of the human psych boggles me.

 

[Mathman]

A lttle bit off topic perhaps, but i have a question for skaters and skating insiders. One of the good things about the detailed protocols divided into many categories is that the scores are useful to the skaters so they can see what areas they need to improve on.

Is this really true? Suppose a skater gets component marks of 6.75, 6.25, 7.00, 7,25 and 6,50. What should the skater do to improve his scores and prepare for the next competition?

Suppose he falls on his triple Axel and hgets -3s in GOE. What has he learned from the protocols that he didn't already know?

 

[gsyzf]

Your oversimplification of the human psych boggles me.

Risk taking is about strategies. People may have different preferences. But on key decisions like this, which can significantly impact a person's future results, people's decision making process isn't significantly different to the extent that results in significantly different decisions. Most (if not all) past champions & medalists took risk when they had to. Other posters make comments like this too.

 

[Mango]

This is a bit irrelevant to the topic of PCS but in relation to this discussion on Yuzuru I wanted to mention that in Brian Orser's latest book (Team Brian II) he mentions Boyang Jin as the skater who brought in the new era of quads. Not Chen. Yuzuru has been admiring Boyang's quads from at least NHK15. He added a 2nd quad to his SP between Skate Canada 2015 and NHK 2015. The ball has been rolling for longer than Chen has been a senior.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

I assume/believe athletes are rational. They only take risk when it's absolutely necessary (they don't take blind risk) because risks need to be compensated. Many people try different things in practice, but it doesn't mean they will actually try them in competition. Doing new quad in competition is very risky. The skaters' consistency will drop and they face bigger risk of injury. So whoever takes the risk to do new quads in competition is because they feel it's necessary, otherwise it implies they are irrational people. (You can believe people are irrational, but I don't believe anyone is irrational when it comes to their own health and reputation.) If he can't win without 4lo, then he will do 4lo in competition even if his 4lo isn't the most consistent in practice. I just wanted to add to what Drivingmissdaisy already said, that it's not only because other skaters are doing more quads or more difficult quads, but also because the other skaters who are doing more difficult quads become serious threats to Hanyu that he was forced to do new quads in competition.

And rational can of course only be this one way of doing things, everything else must be irrational. Just as much as skaters can have no other goals they might work towards except for winning competitions. Personal ideals of skating? Nah.
In this case: I'd consider someone taking a slow and steady approach to adding a new jump like the 4Lo the rational approach, not necessarily 'I will never do it because I don't need it to win'. You don't seem to have any understanding about how important the skaters personal ideals about skating can be to them. And it's not just the jumps. Why would anyone go out there and try to push themselves artistically with different music choices if they don't need that to get points? It only makes it more difficult to perform for them. How irrational

 

[gkelly]

A lttle bit off topic perhaps, but i have a question for skaters and skating insiders. One of the good things about the detailed protocols divided into many categories is that the scores are useful to the skaters so they can see what areas they need to improve on.

Is this really true? Suppose a skater gets component marks of 6.75, 6.25, 7.00, 7,25 and 6,50. What should the skater do to improve his scores and prepare for the next competition?

Suppose he falls on his triple Axel and hgets -3s in GOE. What has he learned from the protocols that he didn't already know?

OK, suppose I’m a junior or senior man earning scores like that.

If I fall on a 3A and get -3 GOE, I don’t learn anything from that score I don’t already know.

But if I land the 3A on one foot and get 0 GOE, and I know that other skaters have earned +1, +2, even +3 GOE for their 3As, I’ll know that judges think those other 3As are better than mine, and that if I can make mine better I can get more points for it.

Watching videos of the other guys’ jumps and my own might make it clear how theirs are better. Reading the rules for positive GOE will tell me where I could improve or enhance my jump to get pluses, and looking at the rules for negative GOE will tell me where I might be getting reductions (e.g., slowing down/telegraphing on the approach, breaking forward on the landing, landing on the wrong edge of the landing foot, not much speed or flow on the landing) that cancel out any positives that are already there.

If there were only one score for Technical Merit, I would have no official way of knowing why guys where guys who land the same jumps as me are earning higher scores.

Component scores of 6.75, 6.25, 7.00, 7.25, and 6.50 -- shall we say those are the averages of the whole panel, even though they just all happen to work out to nice multiples of 0.25? And that the majority of the judges agree that the Performance and Composition should be highest and Transitions and Interpretation lowest?

That tells me that the panel considers my general quality of skating well Above Average, with the Performance and Composition areas firmly in the Good range.

I can see my relative areas of weakness, according to this panel at this event, are Transitions and Interpretation. So those would probably be the areas I’d want to address first, to bring them in line with the stronger components.

That’s more information than I would have if I only got one score of 6.5 for Technical Skating and 6.92 for Performance/Artistry.

I’ll want to try to get all the scores into the 7s (Good) and then aim toward Very Good (8s).

I can analyze why judges might think my interpretation of the music is not as good as the composition of the program or the overall performance and figure out how to get more from the music. Maybe work on facial expression or bringing out more nuances in the music with my body movements?

Maybe all I need to do to bring my Transitions mark up to the level of the Skating Skills is stop telegraphing that triple axel and add some additional steps or other moves before and after some easier elements -- maybe make sure I have more different kinds of transition moves and not just rely on repeating the spread eagle that’s my best move.

If, instead of the 1.0 spread in your example, the averages of the five components and most of the individual judges’ scores stayed within a range of 0.25 or so in the high 6s, with IN sometimes equal to or higher than PE and CO, or TR sometimes equal to SS, then I would know that the judges generally think my performance is almost but not quite “Good” (whatever that means to each of them) and that I don’t have any notable strengths or weaknesses within that range.

So if I want to bring them all into the 7s and eventually 8s, I’ll need to improve everything. Probably starting with the basic skating speed/flow/security and the confidence/attack/projection of the whole performance.

Which I could also figure out with fewer scores.

If some areas go up further or sooner than others, I'll know in which skill areas I've made visible progress and which others need to catch up.

When I start getting an occasional 8 from one or two judges for my best components, I’ll know some judges think some of what I'm putting out there is Very Good even if the average still remains in low 7s.

 

[gsyzf]

And rational can of course only be this one way of doing things, everything else must be irrational. Just as much as skaters can have no other goals they might work towards except for winning competitions. Personal ideals of skating? Nah.
In this case: I'd consider someone taking a slow and steady approach to adding a new jump like the 4Lo the rational approach, not necessarily 'I will never do it because I don't need it to win'. You don't seem to have any understanding about how important the skaters personal ideals about skating can be to them. And it's not just the jumps. Why would anyone go out there and try to push themselves artistically with different music choices if they don't need that to get points? It only makes it more difficult to perform for them. How irrational

We are talking about elite level athletes at the highest level, adding new quads, which can significantly impact their consistency and risk of injury, which is totally different from trying different music that doesn't have significant impact on a person's consistency and health.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

We are talking about elite level athletes at the highest level, adding new quads, which can significantly impact their consistency and risk of injury, which is totally different from trying different music that doesn't have significant impact on a person's consistency and health.

Eh, yeah, trying a completely different style can impact a skaters consistency. It's not always just about the jumps. Also, Yuzuru is constantly trying new transitions into his jumps (quads included), what 'rational' reason does he have for that, when the old transitions are ticking the boxes just as much?

 

[gsyzf]

Eh, yeah, trying a completely different style can impact a skaters consistency. It's not always just about the jumps. Also, Yuzuru is constantly trying new transitions into his jumps (quads included), what 'rational' reason does he have for that, when the old transitions are ticking the boxes just as much?

If he chooses to do new transitions before doing new quads, it implies that doing new quads is more risky (or harder) than doing new transitions to him.

Trying a different style doesn't increase the risk of injury (much). Doing new quads does increase the risk of injury, quite significantly.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

If he chooses to do new transitions before doing new quads, it implies that doing new quads is more risky (or harder) than doing new transitions to him.

This has literally zero significance to the actual point. Skaters might do stuff even though it is not related to scoring better/winning more likely.

 

[gkelly]

I think a lot of competitive athletes just like to push the limits, for personal pride. To push their own limits, to prove to themselves and to the world what they're capable of. And at the top, to push the limits of the sport as a whole. Especially if it will get them in the record books as the first to do something.

 

[Meoima]

This has literally zero significance to the actual point. Skaters might do stuff even though it is not related to scoring better/winning more likely.

:gclap: I know right... if he's wise and rational and point-oriented like he was before Sochi, he should have NOT put that crazy 4S3T combo in the second half.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

I think a lot of competitive athletes just like to push the limits, for personal pride. To push their own limits, to prove to themselves and to the world what they're capable of. And at the top, to push the limits of the sport as a whole. Especially if it will get them in the record books as the first to do something.

Exactly! And I think that's a super impressive characteristic to have, to invest so much work and sweat into something for your personal ideals of what you're doing, pride or the goal to improve yourself. So it deserves recognition, IMO

 

[Fayruza]

:gclap: I know right... if he's wise and rational and point-oriented like he was before Sochi, he should have NOT put that crazy 4S3T combo in the second half.

You're justifying my newly invented user title... thanks!

 

[gsyzf]

This has literally zero significance to the actual point. Skaters might do stuff even though it is not related to scoring better/winning more likely.

Every risky thing they do need to be compensated with some reward. For things likes new quads that's super risky, there would have to super big reward, e.g. many points even for failed attempts, or because one must need it to compete, they won't do it. You can believe athletes are irrational. But they always have a rational reason to do what they choose to do.

 

[gsyzf]

:gclap: I know right... if he's wise and rational and point-oriented like he was before Sochi, he should have NOT put that crazy 4S3T combo in the second half.

Well, he doesn't have a better choice unless he can do other quad combo like 4lo3t to replace his problematic jump. He struggles with 4s3t in the 1st half too. He failed more often in the 1st half than succeed in the 1st half. That's just his nemesis jump regardless of where it is.