The abhorrent state of PCS judging

[drivingmissdaisy]

I said that the situation of Shekhovtsova was the "test case" to determine what the ISU is referring to when they speak of "conflicts of interest." Evidently this situation is OK with the ISU (it "passes the test"), as are the situations mentioned by Karne and by you.

For me, it is much more egregious to have a man/woman in a position of power (i.e. Mr. Auxier) with a potential conflict than having someone married to another in a position of power. They appear to be very different situations to me.

 

[Puchi]

all those Yunafans shrieking about biases...

Mirror, mirror on the wall, who's the shriekiest of them all?

 

[karne]

Mirror, mirror on the wall, who's the shriekiest of them all?

Not I, but those who think it appropriate to send death threats to a 17 year old girl for her heinous "crime" of daring to skate better than the one you had annointed queen - and indeed, continue to do so after the fact...

 

[Meoima]

We need Shin Amano and Shin Amano clones to be the tech caller at every event, and somebody who possesses Shin Amano-like qualities to judge at every competiton. /s
But really, this guy's name is the first name that came to my mind when I thought of unbiased officials - he really gives no easy time to Japanese skaters.

I can give more UR calls and wrong edge calls than Shin Amano. But I am pretty easy with levels.

 

[gotoschool]

We need Shin Amano and Shin Amano clones to be the tech caller at every event, and somebody who possesses Shin Amano-like qualities to judge at every competiton. /s
But really, this guy's name is the first name that came to my mind when I thought of unbiased officials - he really gives no easy time to Japanese skaters.

Also, How is the above discussion a sexist discussion? People would be making the same argument had the judge been Anton S., the husband of Valentina P. who is the head of RUS Skating Fed. I see it more as nationalism/anti-Russian sentiments than sexism.

Amano goes a step further and gives extra harsh and highly suspicious tech calls to Japanese skaters as "cover" as the Worlds 2014 women's LP shows, even ones that often contradict very high GOE given by international judges and even if the GOE on these "flawed" jumps is higher than the ones that are ratified. He even "ratifies" ur calls he admits he wouldn't have given like Mao's triple axel ur in the the Grand Prix Final SP 2013, which is an innovative and dexterous assimilation of double think ideology that contains a confession and its contradiction. Then, the alleged "defects" in tech can be used as an ostensible pretext for the subsequent extrapolation of deflation in GOE and PCS scores to those who are unchosen.

 

[magicalwords]

Amano goes a step further and gives extra harsh and highly suspicious tech calls to Japanese skaters as "cover" as the Worlds 2014 women's LP shows

Care to elaborate and clarify?

He even "ratifies" ur calls he admits he wouldn't have given

Source?
I do agree with GPF being a BS call. However, nowdays, he seems to be one of the few tech callers, if not the only, that actually bother looking keenly at revolutions.

subsequent extrapolation of deflation in GOE and PCS scores to those who are unchosen

Specific examples where this actually occurred? TBH it seems to me the only skaters whose GOE/PCS suffer due to tech calls are those from less-powerful federations. :think:

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Just to add some of my complaints about PCS judging-
I get that we're never going to separate politiking from FS. But it feels like a slap to my face when they've supposedly made this change to CoP to address the problems of the old judging... only to continue on with reputation judging - just with a different name. Number-wise, compared to pre-2010 era, we've seen quite an increase in PCS, but it seems like this usually only applies to skaters from powerful federations. Ladies -- we see skaters on their first, second year of senior circuit getting 60+ PCS when it's evident to our eyes that their skating is not as polished as veteran skaters. Veterans skaters from less powerful federations barely see increases in their PCS and struggle to keep up with the newbies despite the actual skating being... better. Watching 4CC and Asian Games in the past weeks reminded me -- why am I seeing skaters like Zijun and Dabin score 55~56 in PCS while the Russian wonderbabies score 60+ PCS?

 

[OS]

Actually, I find it much more pertinent to consider the actual Vice-President of the Korean Skating Union who sat as a judge on the panel at Vancouver (but, mysteriously, all those Yunafans shrieking about biases and conflict of interest go very silent about that...)

Alla is NOT the "head of the RuFed" herself, and proclaiming that she would just obediently do the bidding of her husband in such matters is straying into dangerously sexist territory, IMO.

Same old same old, PIVOT overdrive and more of your 'Yuna fan is absolutely evil' obsession!

It must be hard to continue to justify your existence on these boards. How is it not anymore pathetic than the losers you keep harping on about, mindlessly droning on over and over like a bad groundhog's day rash. Prejudiced and full of hate? You are better than that! I have challenged you before, just where HERE has anyone ever behaved the way you accuse the whole group of fans here? If you can't, kindly take your 'holy war' elsewhere appropriate.

Don't you ever complain about Max or Brandon's apparent under marking either, since apparently, they are the same judges who have always marked Jason generously, but apparently you didn't say anything then Ridiculous way of thinking if you ask me. One thing does not have to do with another.

 

[breadstal]

Not I, but those who think it appropriate to send death threats to a 17 year old girl for her heinous "crime" of daring to skate better than the one you had annointed queen - and indeed, continue to do so after the fact...

How off-topic this thread can be?

Btw, you're ridiculous, these people are mess and I'm sure they don't care what is "appropriate" and what is not, they're just simply messy. Don't put everyone in one box too, I'm die-hard Yuna fan and I would never do that to anyone :disapp: It's always funny too, to see people thinking "oh, it's ok to that because he/she did it before!111!!!" [about your previous reply about Korean fed guy].

 

[mrrice]

http://www.usfsa.org/content/Nominating Committee 2014-2015 Bios and SOP.pdf

How about Sam Auxier judging the men's events in Sochi while he was first VP of USFSA, and now president of the organization? Where is the outrage? This is why your post comes off as sexist.

You cannot be a world or Olympic judge without being very well connected within your federation.

Absolutely True!!! You can't rise to the top of ANY field without connections. That's why agents make so much money. When I started singing "Professionally", I think I was in 7th grade. I was spotted by a Talent Agent named Gary Goddard. That's how I got the audition for the 70's version of the Mouseketeers http://members.tripod.com/~DM_One/mmc-77/nmmcgallery.jpg

I didn't get the job but, it was through that audition that I started getting studio work as a vocalist. It can be very difficult just get in the door, much less make it to the top without the support of your federation. Or in my case, Agent.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Same old same old, PIVOT overdrive and more of your 'Yuna fan is absolutely evil' obsession!

I think karne's point is that the vast majority, if not all, of judges at the biggest events like Worlds and Olympics are federation insiders. That is true of Russia, South Korea, the USA, etc.

 

[mrrice]

I think karne's point is that the vast majority, if not all, of judges at the biggest events like Worlds and Olympics are federation insiders. That is true of Russia, South Korea, the USA, etc.

I agree with Karne. There are so many things that I learned from "Insiders." What color to wear at an audition. The songs the director hates. What to be prepared for if you get "Called Back" for a second audition. I think it would surprise people to see how many auditions or test skates these skaters have to go through just to get in the same room as Med, Ashley, or Kaetlyn. Their coaches have literally seen hundreds of skaters and they can only support a few of them.

Here's how I feel. I'd rather have the most skilled person judging my skater. I'd rather have Tarasova judging my skater than someone who has never done the work of getting a skater to be great. I think Brian Orser would be an excellent Judge. He has experience in every aspect of skating. He is also a brilliant. I love his interviews and the fact that he knows so much about the history of skating.

 

[gkelly]

Active coaches cannot be judges. That's a lot more ripe for conflicts of interest.
(Also, there's the whole history of amateurism, which shaped the way the sport is structured but isn't directly relevant today.)

Pro competitions often used retired elite skaters currently coaching as judges. "Ineligible" persons all around!

Plenty of good skaters can also go on to become good coaches or good judges. If they want to stay involved in the sport, they generally choose one or the other depending on their interests and talents and whether they have another primary means of earning a living. Some coaches retire from coaching and become judges, or vice versa, though not usually at an international level.

Others may have been great at doing it themselves but not so good at analyzing or teaching. Some may have been mediocre at the physical skills themselves but are great at the mental skills.

Coaches see a limited number of skaters as their direct students. If they teach in a group setting or give a bunch of seminars they can work with more total skaters each day/month/year than if they only teach private lessons. If they teach lower level skaters who take fewer lessons, they may have more total students. They probably also see other skaters who train at the same rink with other coaches. They see a lot more skaters that they don't work with when they accompany their students to competitions. Some may be very objective about how their students stack up against the rest of the field and some may be very biased. Their job as coaches is to support their own students, so some bias is probably a good thing in a coach, as long as it doesn't blind them areas where their students could use improvement.

Judges who judge almost every week, from low-level local competitions (and tests in countries with test systems) up to national and international events, see a lot of different skaters at all levels. Judges who only judge a handful of competitions a year, especially events with few competitors (Grand Prix, for example), not so much.

 

[karne]

I think karne's point is that the vast majority, if not all, of judges at the biggest events like Worlds and Olympics are federation insiders. That is true of Russia, South Korea, the USA, etc.

Exactly. But the one we hear the most outcry about constantly is one who is the wife of the high-ranked federation official and not the actual federation officials themselves, which to me smacks of a sexist attitude that Alla would meekly do her husband's bidding.

I did not find it acceptable that Sam Auxier was a judge at CoC, either, just to be completely transparent. (Though I have a sneaking suspicion that he may have one of the ones who pressed a certain button). For the bigger, more established skating countries, they have enough options that officials in the running of their feds should be excluded.

 

[OS]

I think karne's point is that the vast majority, if not all, of judges at the biggest events like Worlds and Olympics are federation insiders. That is true of Russia, South Korea, the USA, etc.

No system is perfect.

Any system will continue to work as people faithfully use it in the way it was designed for, but if it is hacked/abused, then fix the bug. Simple.

The reason it is not fixed is because the architect is doing the hacking/abusing themselves for their own benefit while others are slow to catch up. Until others manage to catch up, it won't be fixed.

 

[Mathman]

For me, it is much more egregious to have a man/woman in a position of power (i.e. Mr. Auxier) with a potential conflict than having someone married to another in a position of power. They appear to be very different situations to me.

I get that no one is laughing, but there actually is something humorous about all this. The criticism that is commonly leveled at Piseev and Shekhovtsova is not that "she does his bidding," but rather the other way around. That she is the real power in Russian figure skating and, in fact, she is the only "advisor" that Piseev ever listens to.

In any case Shekhovtsova is the usual poster child for judges' having a conflict of interest, just because she has been so influential for so long a time at the top levels of the sport. To tell the truth I have just barely heard of the name Auxier and I cannot tell you the name of the Korean guy at all. They are lightweights, despite Mr. Auxier's title.

By the way, here is the wording of the ISU code of ethics regarding representatives of National Federations serving as judges:

Conflicts of interest -– Rule 102, paragraph 4b.(1912)Paid employees of [National Federations] and their affiliated clubs, and remunerated coaches may not be a referee, assistant referee, technical specialist, technical controller [or] judge ...in ISU events or any other International Competitions.

At the ISU council meeting just before the Sochi Olympics there were so many "inquiries" raised by National Federation chiefs that the ISU issued a "clarification" of this rule. A "paid employee" means someone who works at a regular salary for at least 25 hours per week (such as a computer specialist, secretary, lawyer, PR person, etc.) The top brass of National Federations and their families and friends are "volunteers."

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

In any case Shekhovtsova is the usual poster child for judges' having a conflict of interest, just because she has been so influential for so long a time at the top levels of the sport. To tell the truth I have just barely heard of the name Auxier and I cannot tell you the name of the Korean guy at all. They are lightweights, despite Mr. Auxier's title.

Why do you consider Auxier a "lightweight"? He's the president of the USFSA, and his name is even listed at the top right of the Wikipedia article (where I discovered him): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Figure_Skating If he doesn't have influence, who does?

 

[Mathman]

Why do you consider Auxier a "lightweight"? He's the president of the USFSA, and his name is even listed at the top right of the Wikipedia article (where I discovered him): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Figure_Skating

Exactly. You had to "discover" Mr. Auxier by checking with Wikipedia.

If he doesn't have influence, who does?

Anna Shekhovtsova/Vanentine Piseev/Alexander Lakernik/Didier Gailhaguet.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Exactly. You had to "discover" Mr. Auxier by checking with Wikipedia.

I don't think who I've heard of is necessarily the accurate measure of a person's influence.

 

[Mathman]

I might be wrong about this, but I think that the infuence of the UnitedStates in international figure skating has declined a lot over the last decade. U.S. television contracts used to account for half or more of the ISUs operating budget. The ISU had to toss the bulldog a bone now and then.

Now...I guess I don't understand the concept of "power" as it applies to international figure skating. What can the UnitedSates do to threaten or cajole judges in far-flung parts of the world to give U.S. skaters high marks, for instance?

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Now...I guess I don't understand the concept of "power" as it applies to international figure skating. What can the UnitedSates do to threaten or cajole judges in far-flung parts of the world to give U.S. skaters high marks, for instance?

Is your implication that Anna Shekhovtsova threatened other judges? I guess I'm just confused why you believe that to be the case, because I heard that tossed around by random people on GS but you're a bit more credible than most.