Ladies and the value of the 3A

[andromache]

On the latest episode of the Ice Talk podcast, Phil Hersh and Jackie Wong spent a lot of time discussing the legacy of Mao Asada. (Seriously, Phil is so knowledgeable and has such immense respect and appreciation for the icons of the sport and its history - I'll just say it, I'm a Phil Hersh fan.)

One of the points they discussed quite a bit is Mao's 3A. Mao's 3A didn't push the sport as hard as it could have because she didn't have a 3Lz, which meant that she was still very beatable. Other ladies didn't necessarily also have to have a 3A to beat her. And while ladies are currently pushing the sport in regards to stamina with backloading, the 3A progression has been sooooo slow from Midori Ito until now. We have Rika Kihara and Liza Tukt, but it's evident that the 3A is not on the radar of the vast majority of the ladies at the top of the sport. Even with a risky move like the 3A, it still may not be enough to win, considering the comparative value of just having other jumps in the second half.

Basically, Phil and Jackie seemed to agree that the 3A value should be raised for ladies only in order to get more ladies willing to do the jump in competition. I personally don't like the idea of a skater like Liza (slow, sometimes not-so-good choreo, weak spins) beating more complete skaters like Evgenia/Kaetlyn on the basis of one jump, but I also think the 3A value for ladies is really not high enough.

Thoughts?

 

[frida80]

In related news, Wakaba landed her 3A for the first time in practice at the WTT. She plans on putting it in her long program next season.

 

[yume]

Mao had 3lz, just wrong edge most of the time . I think that the 3A value should be raised. Just 7 ladies in the history have landed 3A in internationals competitions. The hardest jump for the ladies, more than most of the 3-3. And just 2,5 more points than the 3lz.

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[NordEsque]

Given the fact that 3A seems to be agreed upon is one of the most difficult jumps purely technically, and that it is 3,5 rotations and that women do seem to due to general body type (which of course still varies) have more difficulty in rotating that extra 0,5 rotation than the men, yes I do think one could make a good case for a higher value for 3A for women. How much is another matter.

 

[lyndichee]

Seems like the tides are changing as I remember people complaining about the GOEs Mao and Liza received for their 3As in the past.

I think it could be better for ISU to change the rules to lessen the penalty on a failed 3A. GOEs scales may stay the same but maybe get rid of the -1 deduction to encourage people to attempt them in the first place. I never liked the extra penalties for more falls anyways; if a skater falls multiple times, the program is already difficult to save. Handing out more mandatory deductions is just beating a dead horse.

I've also said this in the past, but Mao also attempted the 3F+3Lo. The combination is worth about the same 3Lz+3T so I think the values needs to change as well for more interesting combinations. I think it will make ladies figure skating much more exciting.

 

[andromache]

Seems like the tides are changing as I remember people complaining about the GOEs Mao and Liza received for their 3As in the past.

I think it could be better for ISU to change the rules to lessen the penalty on a failed 3A. GOEs scales may stay the same but maybe get rid of the -1 deduction to encourage people to attempt them in the first place. I never liked the extra penalties for more falls anyways; if a skater falls multiple times, the program is already difficult to save. Handing out more mandatory deductions is just beating a dead horse.

I've also said this in the past, but Mao also attempted the 3F+3Lo. The combination is worth about the same 3Lz+3T so I think the values needs to change as well for more interesting combinations. I think it will make ladies figure skating much more exciting.

I like big deductions on falls so I have to disagree with you there.

Agree re: loop combos. I think basically every figure skating fan agrees that combos need to be scored differently to reward combos of higher difficulty.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Basically, Phil and Jackie seemed to agree that the 3A value should be raised for ladies only in order to get more ladies willing to do the jump in competition. I personally don't like the idea of a skater like Liza (slow, sometimes not-so-good choreo, weak spins) beating more complete skaters like Evgenia/Kaetlyn on the basis of one jump, but I also think the 3A value for ladies is really not high enough.

Liza was probably the first woman since Ito to have all the triples and a solid 3-3. With a 4 triple SP and an 8 triple LP, Liza should be winning if she executes decent programs. This is not solely on the basis of the 3A, but rather the ability to do two more triples than her competitors. Raising the value of the 3A might have us seeing more women train the jump, rather than merely doing 7 triples in the second half of the program.

 

[frida80]

Times have changed since Mao started seniors. Back then you could win with a consistent 3+3. Now Evgenia and Alina have maxed out IJS. If you want to over take them you have no choice but to attempt higher level jumps.

I've done the math. If someone has a layout of a 3lz+3T, 3A, and a 3F, gets all their levels, and a combined GOE of 9 and a PCS score of 33, she will get a SP score of around 80 already. Similarly, they can also get a LP score of 150 with a PCS score of 70. So the incentive is there, it only needs someone brave and consistent enough to take it.

 

[yume]

I've also said this in the past, but Mao also attempted the 3F+3Lo. The combination is worth about the same 3Lz+3T so I think the values needs to change as well for more interesting combinations. I think it will make ladies figure skating much more exciting.

Someone else have successuly landed 3F-3lo?

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[largeman]

In related news, Wakaba landed her 3A for the first time in practice at the WTT. She plans on putting it in her long program next season.

I made a gif for everyone's enjoyment: https://imgflip.com/gif/1nik0s

The original video is on Dailymotion

Someone else have successuly landed 3F-3lo?

Apparently no lady other than Mao! I did a quick search.

Of course, lots of ladies have done 3Lz-3Lo successfully.

 

[frida80]

I made a gif for everyone's enjoyment: https://imgflip.com/gif/1nik0s

 

[Anni234]

I think for the 3A to count you really need to have all other triples as well and decent programs. I can't see Liza for example winning this year even with the 3A, because her programs just... weren't there. Right now 3A seems to be more like some fuzz in the skating community, but not a golden ticket to winning everything. So I'm generally not super hyped about 3A, when it seems the person executing it may jump a perfect 3A, but the odds are she will fail on other jumps and gain nothing.

 

[sarama]

Difficult combinations need to be rewarded accordingly. The 3A doesn't need an increase in value (well maybe in pairs, but that's another story). Mao didn't win "as much as she should have" (debatable but anyway), because her 3A wasn't​ always rotated, and often had iffy landings (in addition before 2010 she couldn't do it as the axel JP in the SP which was penalising). The fact that she had a flutz wouldn't have been a problem per se, but for long periods of her career she lacked a consistent triple-triple and/or a triple Salchow, all things combined were a bit too much to compensate with a not super solid 3A. If you look at someone like Kihira, she is potentially unbeatable (technically at least), because she has all her triples, with correct edges, no UR and 3-3 combos, in addition to her 3A, which means a 4 triples SP and an 8 triples FS. That's at least 10 points more in TES than the other ladies, not a small reward at all!

 

[andromache]

I think for the 3A to count you really need to have all other triples as well and decent programs. I can't see Liza for example winning this year even with the 3A, because her programs just... weren't there. Right now 3A seems to be more like some fuzz in the skating community, but not a golden ticket to winning everything. So I'm generally not super hyped about 3A, when it seems the person executing it may jump a perfect 3A, but the odds are she will fail on other jumps and gain nothing.

I'm not a big 3A hyper generally either, but when a jump has only had a few other women EVER land it, it seems like it should be worth more than 2.5 points higher than a 3Lz or a 3F, which every top woman has at least one of (and is capable of executing the other with a minor penalty).

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I'm not a big 3A hyper generally either, but when a jump has only had a few other women EVER land it, it seems like it should be worth more than 2.5 points higher than a 3Lz or a 3F, which every top woman has at least one of (and is capable of executing the other with a minor penalty).

That's a good point. Thousands of women have landed a lutz and/or flip in international competition, whereas 7 have done the 3A.

 

[andromache]

That's a good point. Thousands of women have landed a lutz and/or flip in international competition, whereas 7 have done the 3A.

Thousands? Is it really that many? :eeking:

Anyway, this was basically Phil and Jackie's point: that when a jump is super rare, it should be worth a lot. It seems to have really worked for the men and their quads.

 

[yume]

Apparently no lady other than Mao! I did a quick search.

Of course, lots of ladies have done 3Lz-3Lo successfully.

The first and the only woman to have landed that combo. Mao loved the difficulty. And that has the same same value then the 3lz-3T who is popular
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[gkelly]

Thousands of women have landed a lutz and/or flip in international competition, whereas 7 have done the 3A.

Thousands? Is it really that many?

I was wondering that too.

In the 1970s, one (Denise Biellmann, 3Lz, 1978).

In 1980s, maybe about 20?

In the 1990s, after the end of school figures, ladies jump content skyrocketed, with more and more attempting harder triples as the decade progressed. So probably a few hundred total by the end.

In this century, probably a couple hundred international juniors and seniors per year, most of them attempting harder triples. Over 17 years, estimating the average skater's international career lasts about 4 years, that would probably add up to well over one thousand.

Does it add up to two thousand (i.e., "thousands"), including the 20th century jumpers as well? Perhaps not. But then there have been American and Russian and Japanese ladies and few from other federations who had the jumps at least briefly but never got the opportunity to compete internationally or didn't attempt or successfully land those jumps when they did. And others -- including back in the 70s and 80s -- who may have landed either jump at least once in practice but never tried in competition.*

So I'd say "thousands of women have landed a (triple) lutz and/or flip" ever is probably accurate, but if we're specifying successful attempts in international competition, I'd go with a more conservative "probably well over a thousand women have landed a lutz and/or flip."


*And how many women successfully landed a rotated 3A on one foot in practice without a harness at least once, over the last 30-some years, but never tried or never succeeded in competition? More than the handful who have done so in competition, but probably well under a hundred.

 

[andromache]

*entire post of wisdom*

You really are the best. :agree:

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

In this century, probably a couple hundred international juniors and seniors per year, most of them attempting harder triples. Over 17 years, estimating the average skater's international career lasts about 4 years, that would probably add up to well over one thousand.

Based on your rough estimate, I think it's probably over 2000, but that's just a guess. There are a lot of juniors with very short careers who land these jumps in JPG fields of 30+ skaters. At the top of the senior ranks, the skaters have longer careers but I think you find a lot of shorter careers beyond that, so the average career of those who land the jump may be well under 4 year. Again, that's just a guess.