Yuzuru Hanyu: 2016-17 Season

[xeyra]

I was wondering : what do you technical specialists think about this (small) critique on Yuzu's jump landing posture ? : http://figureskatingask.tumblr.com/post/159970087357/hello-im-curious-to-know-what-you-mean-when-you

I find that a bit strange because I don't find his forward angle of landing all that pronounced compared to others? I mean, I think he lands less forward than some others in fact. A lot of commentators seem to point out the lack of tension in his upper body, and they always speak of it as a positive thing, but I'm not sure if that's what this person means.

 

[beki]

Imperfect landing posture? That's... very creative. Criticizing him for one of his noted strengths is a bold move. His torso dips a tiny amount as he absorbs the landing—good! We don't want him to slam down stiffly like a bag of rocks :scratch3: Bend, don't break.

Eek, this is an unlucky post number for me I need a pink bow!

 

[mcq]

I find that a bit strange because I don't find his forward angle of landing all that pronounced compared to others? I mean, I think he lands less forward than some others in fact. A lot of commentators seem to point out the lack of tension in his upper body, and they always speak of it as a positive thing, but I'm not sure if that's what this person means.

Well, karne was not really a Yuzuru enthusiast to be honest, could be her/his pet peeves, that's all, nothing wrong with that. But s/he could be quite complimentary to Yuzuru sometimes, though on the edge forums I sometimes would often disagree with his/her opinions. Other skaters has done worse landings anyway and if it is bothering her/him I don't think it meant much to be argue about. Won't be the first time I have disagreement with her/him over Yuzuru.

 

[Altie]

I find that a bit strange because I don't find his forward angle of landing all that pronounced compared to others? I mean, I think he lands less forward than some others in fact. A lot of commentators seem to point out the lack of tension in his upper body, and they always speak of it as a positive thing, but I'm not sure if that's what this person means.

That was exactly my thought when I read that, but I'm not a specialist at all, hence the question
Funny to discover that this tumblr user is karne XD

 

[Floria]

That was exactly my thought when I read that, but I'm not a specialist at all, hence the question
Funny to discover that this tumblr user is karne XD

I am not a specialist either but his bird-like landings always fascinate me.

ETA I even try to imitate him when practicing Waltz jumps.

 

[xeyra]

Eek, this is an unlucky post number for me I need a pink bow!

Yuzuru looking over Javi's shoulder has a very ominous feel to it, very fitting with your post number.

 

[Floria]

Beautiful Swan artwork

 

[Meoima]

I find that a bit strange because I don't find his forward angle of landing all that pronounced compared to others? I mean, I think he lands less forward than some others in fact. A lot of commentators seem to point out the lack of tension in his upper body, and they always speak of it as a positive thing, but I'm not sure if that's what this person means.

All top skaters have bad landings often. They all have to save landings now and then.

But overall if you ask about bad habits in the landings, some skaters have more than others. Of course, when you have to "save" a landing, it's not good for your body and your jump, if it happens just several times it's not serious. But when you always have to save your landings very often in both practice and competition, it's very bad.

Yuzuru is the one I think that he has to save his landing the least among top men.

 

[xeyra]

All top skaters have bad landings often. They all have to save landings now and then.

But overall if you ask about bad habits in the landings, some skaters have more than others. Of course, when you have to "save" a landing, it's not good. When you always have to save your landings very often in both practice and competition, it's very bad.

Yuzuru is the one I think that he has to save his landing the least among top men.

Speaking of saving landings... that 4Lz save hurt my knee just watching...

 

[Meoima]

Speaking of saving landings... that 4Lz save hurt my knee just watching...

it's a new difficult jump, it's ok. To be able to land that means his body has become stronger than before. If Yuzuru were shorter and less slender, or his body was less flexible, it might be better. Mishin once said he prefer stout body with short legs for a reason (look at Liza Tuk).

But you can not change your body. You have to live with it. I think Yuzuru is handling his slender and flexible body with the quads fine.

 

[xeyra]

it's a new difficult jump, it's ok. To be able to land that means his body has become stronger than before. If Yuzuru were shorter and less slender, or his body was less flexible, it might be better. Mishin once said he prefer stout body with short legs for a reason (look at Liza Tuk).

But you can not change your body. You have to live with it. I think Yuzuru is handling his slender and flexible body with the quads fine.

His body type is one of the reasons why I love his jumps so much. It makes them look 10x times better to me personally.

 

[Meoima]

His body type is one of the reasons why I love his jumps so much. It makes them look 10x times better to me personally.

There is one reason why Yuzuru insited on moving to Orser because of Javi's quads. If you look at Javi's landings, you can see that his landings are very stable (when he's on of course). Javi has strongest core-strength. I think Yuzuru wants to have that. Well Yuzuru can never be Javi, but he makes up by improving better technique.

 

[mcq]

it's a new difficult jump, it's ok. To be able to land that means his body has become stronger than before. If Yuzuru were shorter and less slender, or his body was less flexible, it might be better. Mishin once said he prefer stout body with short legs for a reason (look at Liza Tuk).

But you can not change your body. You have to live with it. I think Yuzuru is handling his slender and flexible body with the quads fine.

But then again if he was shorter he probably can't get the height necessary to perform full-rotation on quad. I think his body is actually ideal for quads, his thin body helped him rotate faster and have that tight air position, his height +slenderness +springiness helped him get the height, while his soft knees helped him with the buttery landings on his quads and probably benefit him when it comes to reducing stress and force on his hips, ankles and knees. He has muscles but not too much where he would be too heavy to rotate fast, but not too little that he would not be able to jump high. His core used to be a problem for him but not anymore. I genuinely think his body type is probably a great balance of what it requires to be a good quad jumper.

 

[Meoima]

But then again if he was shorter he probably can't get the height necessary to perform full-rotation on quad. I think his body is actually ideal for quads, his thin body helped him rotate faster and have that tight air position, his height +slenderness +springiness helped him get the height, while his soft knees helped him with the buttery landings on his quads and probably benefit him when it comes to reducing stress and force on his hips, ankles and knees. He has muscles but not too much where he would be too heavy to rotate fast, but not too little that he would not be able to jump high. His core used to be a problem for him but not anymore. I genuinely think his body type is probably a great balance of what it requires to be a good quad jumper.

Personally I think Javi has better core-strength. Had Javi been younger, and got better teacher (no Morozov please), his Flip and Lutz might be better and he could have done 4F and 4Lz. Because his core is just unbeliavle strong. But yeah Javi's SS is quite weak compare to Yuzuru and Patrick. You can not have it all.
I do think Yuzuru has become much healthier and stronger than before. Maybe next season will be his time.

 

[mcq]

Personally I think Javi has better core-strength. Had Javi been younger, and got better teacher (no Morozov please), his Flip and Lutz might be better and he could have done 4F and 4Lz. Because his core is just unbeliavle strong. But yeah Javi's SS is quite weak compare to Yuzuru and Patrick. You can not have it all.
I do think Yuzuru has become much healthier and stronger than before. Maybe next season will be his time.

I agree with the core-strength part, it was a problem for Yuzuru before. I think he (and Borser) mentioned he did not really do an actual regimen of off-ice training prior to Borser and Orser had to convince him to build more muscles because he was against it initially. You can see the extent of how he buffed up and became more bulky after moving to TCC. I think they also overcome his biggest and main problem before, which is stamina. It has been 2 seasons that I think it is no longer a problem/concern for him. Usually he always looks like he is about to collapse and faint after skating and panting + gasping for air like no tomorrow.

I think being an ultimate jumper is really a paradox, because you need to rotate tight and fast (thus it is better to be slender, Yuzuru, Boyang and maybe Nathan is quite the prototype of it) and you need to jump high (usually it means strong leg muscles and thus you need to be quite buffed, being tall helps too. Tonya, Midori is not necessarily tall but their strong leg muscles helped them. but when your body type is more buffed you likely rotate slower, Yagudin, Midori, Tonya, again, are an example).

 

[Li'Kitsu]

Those who are loved by the judges regardless of their age are Non-Russian Europeans. This is the reality, Carolina, Javi and Alionca Svachenko are the only non-Russian Europeans skaters that have done well and reached to the top/near top. They will always get sympathy and love from the judges because the majority of judges are Europeans.

Eeeehhhhh.... no it's not like we had a really big sample size to make any conclusions here, but someone like Ashley Wagner gets very generous scores for her second Oly quad now too, and last time I checked she was very much American (unless you want to tell me now being born in Germany alone makes her count as non-Russian European ) And did someone like Kwan see a drop in judges popularity over the years?

As for Yuzu following Patricks curse: IMO, no. At least for me, there was a shift in the judging after both of Chans questionable world titles. After WC 2012, "the next tier contenders" (=Dai, Yuzu, Javi) saw their makrs going way up (especially funny with Dai, who was actually better in 2011-12, but got lower marks then). And after WC 2013 the same happened just even more pronounced. I don't think Yuzu was specifically a judges darling back then, but more the one who delivered enough to profit from the judges trying to give someone else high enough marks to 'keep up' with Chans, so that there wouldn't be 'another questionable win on PCS'. And if Yuzu was such a judges favorite in the following seasons, they could have easily given 2015 WC to him, for example (I wouldn't agree with it and I'm happy they didn't, but it's quite easy to get the numbers for it together).

 

[Li'Kitsu]

But then again if he was shorter he probably can't get the height necessary to perform full-rotation on quad.

Where is this idea coming from that being taller = jumping higher? there is basically zero proof of that for me... look at baby smidgen Yuzu and how big his jumps already were. I remember seeing videos of Adelina Sotnikova when she was maaaayyybe a walking meter and had bigger jumps than most of the full grown senior ladies. Other big jumpers like Midori, Wakaba, Liza, Karen Chen also don't make it look like that for me. I think it's a lot more about springiness and the leg muscles than height.

 

[Meoima]

Eeeehhhhh.... no it's not like we had a really big sample size to make any conclusions here, but someone like Ashley Wagner gets very generous scores for her second Oly quad now too, and last time I checked she was very much American (unless you want to tell me now being born in Germany alone makes her count as non-Russian European ) And did someone like Kwan see a drop in judges popularity over the years?

Diva Wagner is from USFA.... dare you underestimate this powerful federation? Just kidding.

I think it has a lot with the interest of each fed too. Let's say, the more you invest in something, the more you will get out of it. Some Non-Russian European skaters don't need much same investment like NA but still get quite love from judges.

As for Yuzu following Patricks curse: IMO, no. At least for me, there was a shift in the judging after both of Chans questionable world titles. After WC 2012, "the next tier contenders" (=Dai, Yuzu, Javi) saw their makrs going way up (especially funny with Dai, who was actually better in 2011-12, but got lower marks then). And after WC 2013 the same happened just even more pronounced. I don't think Yuzu was specifically a judges darling back then, but more the one who delivered enough to profit from the judges trying to give someone else high enough marks to 'keep up' with Chans, so that there wouldn't be 'another questionable win on PCS'. And if Yuzu was such a judges favorite in the following seasons, they could have easily given 2015 WC to him, for example (I wouldn't agree with it and I'm happy they didn't, but it's quite easy to get the numbers for it together).

I agree with you that Yuzuru isn't judges' favorite even that time and today. I think it helps his spirit actually so it doesn't mean a bad thing.

I didn't mean to say Yuzuru followed Patrick's curse. My point is, the current Patrick Chan isn't favored by the judges as much as before but he has great SS and overall solid technique that judges can not put him down when he does well. Yuzuru has even better jump technique so you understand my point. Solid technique always helps even when judges are not on your side.

 

[Meoima]

Where is this idea coming from that being taller = jumping higher? there is basically zero proof of that for me... look at baby smidgen Yuzu and how big his jumps already were. I remember seeing videos of Adelina Sotnikova when she was maaaayyybe a walking meter and had bigger jumps than most of the full grown senior ladies. Other big jumpers like Midori, Wakaba, Liza, Karen Chen also don't make it look like that for me. I think it's a lot more about springiness and the leg muscles than height.

I think I remember somewhere in the past, Mishin preferred shorter skaters with shorter legs and strong core. But of course skaters come in all shape, you can never tell.

 

[mcq]

Where is this idea coming from that being taller = jumping higher? there is basically zero proof of that for me... look at baby smidgen Yuzu and how big his jumps already were. I remember seeing videos of Adelina Sotnikova when she was maaaayyybe a walking meter and had bigger jumps than most of the full grown senior ladies. Other big jumpers like Midori, Wakaba, Liza, Karen Chen also don't make it look like that for me. I think it's a lot more about springiness and the leg muscles than height.

Not really, it is a multi-factor and height is some of them.
Some research suggest it is body fat % related https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3684376/
This research suggested it is muscle power https://www.researchgate.net/publication/6053230_Is_vertical_jump_height_a_body_size-independent_measure_of_muscle_power
This research is studying various parameter, length of leg is some of them http://thesportjournal.org/article/parameters-that-influence-vertical-jump-height/
There is no single factor parameter that contribute the most to jump-height and in all fairness, those who are more buffed would have trouble rotating faster than the slender ones.