Repeating Programs - Pros and Cons | Page 3 | Golden Skate

Repeating Programs - Pros and Cons

I prefer new, innovative programs but that's not always possible.

In recent years, some skaters have spent enormous resources on new programs, hiring new choreographers, etc. but the results were dismal. There's nothing worse than an apathetic, polite applause from the audience.

So I understand if they want to recycle their most successful program if only to get the best results possible.

Petrenko's Carmen was recycled several seasons but he kept improving the program - still possibly one of the greatest Carmens in the history of FS. A work of art isn't set in stone but evolves over time. Artur Dmitriev and his partners recycled their programs to great success, but they changed their costumes, choreographies, creative moves, and technical content so it didn't seem old. I found the changes they made just as fascinating as new programs. Almost like a totally new way of interpreting the same program.

The problem with new or innovative programs, IMO, are the Judges. Most Olympic Judging Panels are filled with older veterans who are not always in favor of "New" or "Innovative" programs. If it works, it's great but, I have seen many a program fall flat if the program is skated badly while trying to be original. They sometimes come across as confusing or disjointed to the judges and the audience.
 
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The problem with new or innovative programs, IMO, are the Judges. Most Olympic Panels are filled with Veteran Panels who are not always in favor of "New" or "Innovative" programs. If it works, it's great but, I have seen many a program fall flat if the program is skated badly while trying to be original. They sometimes come across as confusing or disjointed to the judges and the audience.

C/B seemed to struggle with that this season in their FD. H/D in their SD as well.

James/Cipres, OTOH, were superb in their originality this season.

In recent years, no one comes to mind as being especially new or innovative in singles, program-wise. Mao's use of the connected SP and LP might be an exception.
 
I'm really disappointed with all of the repeats. It probably wouldn't bother me as much if it wasn't Olympic season. If there was ever a time to try new innovative things and take some risks it would be in Olympic season. The only "pro" for me is if a skater got injured and didn't get to complete the season (as in the case of Adam and his bird lp) Yuzu has to be the worst to me. I am a huge fan and I expect so much more from one of the greatest of all time at his peak in Olympic season then a third time repeat. Now I have even higher expectations for a lights out lp. Maybe that's fan entitlement but hey there is a reason competitions sell tickets to fans and are not just done in an enclosed room for judges only. We pay pretty good chunks of change for these competitions and endless repeats that we've already paid good money to see the year before can get super frustrating.
 
I think it makes the most sense when a skater was injured or something and missed part or all of the season. Beyond that, if I like the program, then I'll be fine with it, if not, I'll be disappointed, just like I'll be disappointed in a new program if I don't like it. For example, I would love Nicolas Nadeau to keep his Elvis program because I love it (and he did miss part of the season). I also think repeating an old program from a few seasons ago is different than repeating two seasons in a row (both can be fine, they just feel different to me). I think it would be cool to go back to music/a program from earlier in a skater's career and revamping it.

I do find repeating a program multiple times to be a bit much though. It's a skater's right, but I find it boring.
 
If a new program doesn't work out in the Olympic year, it can cause major problems for the skaters. In 2002, Sale and Pelletier had a new program (nicknamed "Orchid") but had difficulty executing it. They went back to their 2000 long program, Love Story. And we all know how it turned out.

Having to change their program so late in the year had to be an enormous strain for them. At least they went back two years instead of one, and to one of their most successful programs ever.
 
I can understand that skaters repeat a program, I just think that more than twice is too much, for whatever reason. If Yuzu liked that program so much, why did not he wait to skate it for the second time in the Olympics?

To be honest, I think that the initial plan was to repeat Let's Go Crazy, but it was'nt possible because Yuzu developped a kind of mental block with this program. So he went back in his comfort zone to get his self-confidence back. Which is understandable, especially in olympic years, with all the pressure and his self-imposed goal to skate clean programs. And, from a selfish point of view, I'm not yet tired of Chopin.

As for Javi skating a "best-of Javier Fernandez", since it's probably his last season before retirement, it sounds like a logical choice. Shoma chosing music he's comfortable with to focus on tech ? Understandable.

I really don't mind repeat programs. Several repeat programs became classics after they had been skated in the olympics, with the wider audience etc... if it means more beautiful and clean skates, even if I know the programs by heart, then why not ?
If all the years were like olympic year, then I'd probably rant about the lack of originality or risk (and get less interested in some skaters). But for the Olympics ? it's fine by me.
 
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With a few exceptions, I don't like it when skaters reuse programs, especially if I feel like the program has already been skated to its full potential or is a warhorse. Particularly Turandot. But I do understand why skaters might recycle, and they honestly shouldn't be worrying too much about my feelings anyways.

And as a side note, since recycling seems to be the common trend for next season, I hope Satoko keeps her Planets FS! :)
 
If a new program doesn't work out in the Olympic year, it can cause major problems for the skaters. In 2002, Sale and Pelletier had a new program (nicknamed "Orchid") but had difficulty executing it. They went back to their 2000 long program, Love Story. And we all know how it turned out.

Having to change their program so late in the year had to be an enormous strain for them. At least they went back two years instead of one, and to one of their most successful programs ever.

Which is the reason I totally opposed dual gold medals. They went back to what was it, their FIRST program together? It was more diluted than water, while B/S had transitions and difficult and complex choreography. No snow ball fights in their program that's for sure. Sale and Pel just couldn't handle a complex program, and really never should have gotten so close to gold. But Jamie's crocodile tears on international telly pulled at the heartstrings of people who know little to nothing about skating and did the trick. Voila, Jamie has an Oly gold. Kind of sickening. IMHO.
 
I'm really disappointed with all of the repeats. It probably wouldn't bother me as much if it wasn't Olympic season. If there was ever a time to try new innovative things and take some risks it would be in Olympic season. The only "pro" for me is if a skater got injured and didn't get to complete the season (as in the case of Adam and his bird lp) Yuzu has to be the worst to me. I am a huge fan and I expect so much more from one of the greatest of all time at his peak in Olympic season then a third time repeat. Now I have even higher expectations for a lights out lp. Maybe that's fan entitlement but hey there is a reason competitions sell tickets to fans and are not just done in an enclosed room for judges only. We pay pretty good chunks of change for these competitions and endless repeats that we've already paid good money to see the year before can get super frustrating.

Really?:scratch2: I think skaters' and trainers' opinion is just the opposite (and they are the learned in the topic): previous years are the time to try new things and take risks, and after that, try to deliver perfect in the Olympics
 
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Not a fan of it albeit in rare cases I enjoy it (like with Wagner's Moulin Rouge or Poeta of Lambiel. I generally approve when skater got injured in the middle of season. The biggest con is that judges can get tired / bored by it and even subconsciously give lower marks. In the case of the younger skaters it may stall their growth imo

I'm anti-recycling with two exceptions: the skater simply cannot afford new choreo, or they only got to skate a program a few times due to a season being cut short for whatever reason. And I really, really dislike it when top skaters have a habit of recycling. It gives the
impression that the skater is very limited artistically and a bit of a one-trick pony.

Brian Joubert *cough, cough*
 
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As for Javi skating a "best-of Javier Fernandez", since it's probably his last season before retirement, it sounds like a logical choice.

If you've been on the senior circuit for a decade or more, at that point you get to do what you want, in my book. Plushenko's greatest hits wasn't my cup of tea, but he earned it. At least he had hits to choose from.

In the case of the younger skaters it may stall their growth imo

Agree
 
In the case of the younger skaters it may stall their growth imo

Not always. I don't mind a program getting a second season for growth - and Jason has certainly shown that. Joshua and Schindler's List, too. But I think a third season is excessive. And I think dragging back a program that already achieved the most it could, after a break of a year or two, especially when it was already repeated before, is just... :confused2:

There are also programs that aren't "true repeats", like Brooklee's Por Una Cabeza, which she only competed three times, or Max's La Virgen de la Macarena, which he only did once.

I also hold Joshua's Give Me Love in a slightly different light - I did not like that he was going to repeat this originally, but for me, it's acceptable now because his injury was so bad and took him out for so long.
 
I personally will never comment negatively or judge a skater if they choose to repeat a program. I do not know what is happening in their lives and have no knowledge of why they made the decision, so I choose to believe that this is what they think is best for them and I will respect that decision. After all they are the ones who will live with it and suffer the consequences (if any).
 
This thread has been very interesting and it was great to read all the different opinions. It seems to me that we need to differentiate what repeating programs mean to a viewer and what it means to a skater. For the viewer, it's simply an entertainment factor, or lack thereof. It's much more than that for a skater.

First of all, I don't agree that the choice to revisit a program (no matter how much of the choreography or music is unchanged) should reduce a skater to either 'lazy' or 'clever'. The primary purpose of music and choreography is to provide a stage for skaters to showcase their technical and artistic abilities in the best possible light for the judges to judge. Elite skaters have worked too hard to get where they are to sacrifice this stage, especially at the Olympics, because they are too 'lazy' to learn new choreography or find new music. I thought this description was quite interesting from this site: Artistic and Interpretive events do not improve a skaters basic ability to skate. They are merely a format in which the skater can present his competence for evaluation and/or comparison. If they think or know that there is a better way to present their skills, and they have the resources and ability to do so, why would they not do that? Who would want to handicap themselves at this time and not give their 110%? It is not what they can do for the choreography/music but what the choreography/music can do for them. That is why people still use warhorses so much. They are well-tested to provide all the necessary climaxes and structure to enhance the elements and also do all the heavylifting of setting up the theme and story.

If it is better for a skater to create a new program, they will. Some people get sick of their choreographies and need a fresh start to get through a new season, or perhaps the new choreographies will significantly help to showcase or help to upgrade their skillsets better, artistic or otherwise. If not, there's no reason for them to have new programs for the sake of having new programs if they can achieve what they want with the same programs. It really depends on what kind of improvements and goals the skaters themselves set out to achieve. On the other hand, having new programs every season does not implicitly imply great progress in artistic skills. Versatility is the ability to do different things well, not the attempt to do many different things. Which leads to the next point.

The Olympics is not the place to be risky and try completely new things. That would be very antithetical to how many skaters clearly treat the Olympics, which is that it is the event to present their best self to the entire world and not as an event to see if they can perhaps successfully tackle a new set of artistic skills (which is what having completely different styles of choreography/music would allow them to do). That is something they do in the seasons between the Olympics, where they can experiment, make big changes and learn new skills. See what sticks and what don't. I don't think the ISU makes major changes in the scoring only after each Olympics because of convenience. The sense of a culminating quad is there and you don't suddenly change directions when you are reaching the end if you are already on the right track.
 
Regarding Pros and Cons, I also thought of Yay or Nay, but that seemed a bit immature. Same with "Lazy" or "Clever". It's a provocative question to get the discussion going. It's not meant to be taken that seriously. I don't believe anyone who is at the top in this sport can be called 'lazy' and we all agree on that.
 
My feeling is that repeating a program is lazy and kind of unfair to those skaters who actually work on a new program in the off-season. I know every skater is free to choose to not get a new program, but if everyone did this, figure skating would become rather boring soon. So those skaters are relying on the others to learn new programs while they stay in their comfort zone.
I don't mind if a skater reverts to an old program, though, if their new program isn't working for them.
 
in all honesty, at the end of the day this thread is completely redundant. There are only two sides of this issue-either a skater is lazy or a skater is clever; with a few opinions blurring the line between them and it completely depends on personal taste. I don't see why this discussion is really taking place just because it's not like any professional skaters out there are gonna see this and change their mind on what program to use in the future

Feels like it exists to either bash skaters or excuse them for repeating ;)
 
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in all honesty, at the end of the day this thread is completely redundant. There are only two sides of this issue-either a skater is lazy or a skater is clever; with a few opinions blurring the line between them and it completely depends on personal taste. I don't see why this discussion is really taking place just because it's not like any professional skaters out there are gonna see this and change their mind on what program to use in the future

Feels like it exists to either bash skaters or excuse them for repeating ;)

If you believe any post in this thread is bashing a skater you obviously haven't been here for long. And if you still believe that a skater is treated harshly or bashed, go to the post you deem bashing and use the report button. Simple as that. Other than that what does the GoldenSkate Forum exist for? To discuss figure skating and our personal opinions and feelings about it. If it would be redundant, people wouldn't discuss it - the discussion about it clustered up the Program Thread. So if there is nothing to talk about, why are there 4 pages already?
 
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