Repeating Programs - Pros and Cons

[ancientpeas]

There are some great, icon skaters to who skated some really great early programs and I'd be interested to see what they would do with the material now. An old Virtue/Moir program, a old Kostner program or an old Patrick Chan program (I can think of several others-mainly ice dancers and men) to see how it would be different now.

To use a non skating example: when Tammy Wynette first (when she was still married to George Jones) sang "Stand by your man" it was sang with the intention of the song (an ode to sticking by your guy no matter what) to how she sang it later in life (after the break up with Jones) when it's pretty laced with irony. KD lang's versions of Hallelujah has also changed over the years.

It would probably be the best way to judge their evolution as artists.

 

[4everchan]

There are some great, icon skaters to who skated some really great early programs and I'd be interested to see what they would do with the material now. An old Virtue/Moir program, a old Kostner program or an old Patrick Chan program (I can think of several others-mainly ice dancers and men) to see how it would be different now.

To use a non skating example: when Tammy Wynette first (when she was still married to George Jones) sang "Stand by your man" it was sang with the intention of the song (an ode to sticking by your guy no matter what) to how she sang it later in life (after the break up with Jones) when it's pretty laced with irony. KD lang's versions of Hallelujah has also changed over the years.

It would probably be the best way to judge their evolution as artists.

many musicians do that : record pieces they have recorded early in their career at a much later, more mature time.... glenn gould Goldberg variations, Louis Lortie Chopin Etudes are only a couple examples...

In the example you are giving, this is what I think Patrick did in 2013-14, he took a modified version of his Vivaldi 4 seasons, skated years before but it was a completely different and more mature experience.

I'd love seeing Virtue and Moir on Valse Triste or Parapluies de Cherbourg...

Great post!

 

[ancientpeas]

I often wonder what songwriters feel when they write songs about someone or something and then their feelings about that person or thing changes. But that's off topic.

I think sometimes skaters want to skate to big dramatic music before they are mature enough to really understand it fully. Some great ballerinas have talked about how their playing of the great iconic parts (Odette/Odile, Giselle, Juliet etc) matures and changes over time and I have to imagine that with great skaters this would also be the case. It would be really interesting to see some of the IDers do programs from 8-10 years ago and see how they approach it differently.

 

[SnowWhite]

many musicians do that : record pieces they have recorded early in their career at a much later, more mature time.... glenn gould Goldberg variations, Louis Lortie Chopin Etudes are only a couple examples...

In the example you are giving, this is what I think Patrick did in 2013-14, he took a modified version of his Vivaldi 4 seasons, skated years before but it was a completely different and more mature experience.

I'd love seeing Virtue and Moir on Valse Triste or Parapluies de Cherbourg...

Great post!

I'd love to see them try their Pink Floyd program again, especially since it didn't get a full season

 

[rugbyfan]

I don't think it is laziness, but I think it can be a lack of courage; or to put it differently, it does feel awfully like "playing it safe". I love it when skaters try different styles, music etc and show off their versatility. It is one of the reasons I love V and M. It makes me feel like you have a really rounded skater. Sometimes it doesn't work out. As mentioned above, I think Sale and Pelletier were right to abandon Orchid - it simply wasn't working which made Love Story the sensible as well as the safer option. I think it does have longer term ramifications though. I was a Petrenko fan before I was ever a Browning one but it got to the point where I was so bored of his program that I really wasn't wanting him to win (Ok come second; after 89 I always wanted Browning to win). I also think his continuing re-use has scaled him down on my level of truly great skater because I don't have so many really iconic programs to remember. Perhaps longevity plays a factor. I didn't mind Caro reusing Bolero because I had so many other programs to remember of hers. I am really saddened by Hanyu's Chopin because I think he is a superb skater but I feel certain that I will only ultimately look back at one rendition. Yes it's a sport; yes they have the right to do what they need to to win; but yes it handicaps them in the all time great list in my mind.

 

[Anyasnake]

You have several situations :

Hanyu case : Chopin has been performed perfectly twice. This is why I wanted to see it for a second season in 2015-2016 but that is why I don't want it anymore.

If V/M repeat Pink Floyd it's okay for me : they did that program twice only and since they now master the technique it would be awesome.
If Sui/Han repeat their FS I would be the happiest person alive (It deserves its Olympic moments).
I would love to see Build a Home from P/C once again because they didn't skate it at the GP and to see that now that they are better technically speaking would be great (Since it's my all-time favourite FD ever ).
I want Satoko to keep her FS.

Exception : Patrick Chan BlackBird, Hanyu's Prince, and maybe some more BUT it has to be a great program.

 

[bevybean]

I don't think it is laziness, but I think it can be a lack of courage; or to put it differently, it does feel awfully like "playing it safe". I love it when skaters try different styles, music etc and show off their versatility.

I think sometimes you are right. Along those lines, I appreciate Chock and Bates for really doing something different last season and with their exhibition in 2015-2016. I feel like since they pushed their limits, they have a better idea of what they can do. Now they can pick music for the Olympic season that will stand out a bit from what others are doing, but still feel comfortable with it. (I haven't heard what they are skating to yet and if I find out they are repeating something, I'll be super disappointed.)

 

[andromache]

I think repeating is a BIG no-no in ice dance. Literally no one ever repeats (and bless them for not doing it).

P/C's "To Build a Home" is my favorite program ever but they would be flayed alive if they ever did it again. It was performed to its peak when they won Worlds with it. One you see a program reach perfection, it can only disappoint you in future renditions. (I think the majority of top ice dance teams manage to do this once a season with their programs, which is part of the reason no one repeats).

No one would care if Hanyu was repeating a program that he hadn't already performed to perfection. I anticipate lots of changes so we don't get tired of it. (But he should be doing Prince, IMO).


I won't be surprised if S/H repeat one of their programs since their season was so short, but they're so brilliant I would rather see something new. Even though Bridge Over Troubled Water is a masterpiece that is always marred by the SBS fall, once you win Worlds with an LP (even with mistakes), it needs to go. (SPs that win Worlds are a different story because they just aren't as memorable).

 

[gkelly]

I think repeating is a BIG no-no in ice dance. Literally no one ever repeats (and bless them for not doing it).

I can think of a few examples where dance teams revived an old free dance or reworked an OD into a free dance, but they were few and the ones I remember were all pre-IJS, so not very recent.

 

[moriel]

There are some great, icon skaters to who skated some really great early programs and I'd be interested to see what they would do with the material now. An old Virtue/Moir program, a old Kostner program or an old Patrick Chan program (I can think of several others-mainly ice dancers and men) to see how it would be different now.

To use a non skating example: when Tammy Wynette first (when she was still married to George Jones) sang "Stand by your man" it was sang with the intention of the song (an ode to sticking by your guy no matter what) to how she sang it later in life (after the break up with Jones) when it's pretty laced with irony. KD lang's versions of Hallelujah has also changed over the years.

It would probably be the best way to judge their evolution as artists.

Also well, for me, its fair for an artist to return to same piece as long as the artist has something new to say about it.
It can be a more mature view, a different view, to perform well something that was never perfect before. As long as the artist has something to add to it, repetition is fine.
Because its not really repetition.

 

[Barb]

I think sometimes you are right. Along those lines, I appreciate Chock and Bates for really doing something different last season and with their exhibition in 2015-2016. I feel like since they pushed their limits, they have a better idea of what they can do. Now they can pick music for the Olympic season that will stand out a bit from what others are doing, but still feel comfortable with it. (I haven't heard what they are skating to yet and if I find out they are repeating something, I'll be super disappointed.)

La la land for FD.

 

[moriel]

La la land for FD.

That doesnt sounds like different and standing out actually.

 

[Barb]

That doesnt sounds like different and standing out actually.

Different to what or who?. So far only Dabin Choi has skated that music. At least it is less used than Carmen, Turandot, POTO, Les miserables, James Bond, Ballade n. 1, 4 seasons, Ed Sheeran, etc.

 

[NanaPat]

Different to what or who?. So far only Dabin Choi has skated that music. At least it is less used than Carmen, Turandot, POTO, Les miserables, James Bond, Ballade n. 1, 4 seasons, Ed Sheeran, etc.

But La La Land is new; give it time. At best, it will be overused for a year or two then fade into obscurity. At worst, well....

 

[Weathergal]

...(SPs that win Worlds are a different story because they just aren't as memorable).

I disagree with this part of your post. I think some of the SPs are just as memorable as the FPs, if not moreso in some cases. I would use this year's SP / SD gold winners Sui / Han and Virtue / Moir as an example. YMMV of course.

 

[andromache]

I disagree with this part of your post. I think some of the SPs are just as memorable as the FPs, if not moreso in some cases. I would use this year's SP / SD gold winners Sui / Han and Virtue / Moir as an example. YMMV of course.

There are exceptions, of course, but generally, you win or lose by your LP, especially for the general public who happens to watch Worlds.

 

[NanaPat]

There are exceptions, of course, but generally, you win or lose by your LP, especially for the general public who happens to watch Worlds.

And if you're in the US or Canada, watching on TV, you'll be lucky to see any short programs at all! So for that "general public", LPs are definitely the most memorable.

 

[moriel]

Different to what or who?. So far only Dabin Choi has skated that music. At least it is less used than Carmen, Turandot, POTO, Les miserables, James Bond, Ballade n. 1, 4 seasons, Ed Sheeran, etc.

We already have Wagner skating to it next season, so thats a +1.
And then there are tons of skaters who didnt announce anything yet, so chances are there will be a bunch more.

It doesn't sound like a very original and standing out choice at any rate. Original would be lets say Transsiberian Orchestra or Ayreon, that would be original and stand out. Yet another popular musical? thats hardly sounds like standing out and different.

 

[mrrice]

I don't have a problem with people going back to an old SP, as long as it's not from the previous season. Michelle Kwan went back to an old SP in 2002 and I'd love to see Joshua Farris re-use his "Give Me Love" for his new season.

 

[musicfan80]

I don't have a problem with people going back to an old SP, as long as it's not from the previous season. Michelle Kwan went back to an old SP in 2002 and I'd love to see Joshua Farris re-use his "Give Me Love" for his new season.

Confirmed that's he re-using "Give Me Love" as his SP next season - on Joshua's revamped website. His LP will be Respighi's "Pines of Rome" which was the program he was going to use for the 2015-2016 season. I wonder if Joshua will consult with Jeff Buttle to change anything on that - it's been two years and according to this recent interview, Josh has changed as a person in that time. He may have a different feel for the program.

Even with the Schindler's List LP, he revamped the footwork for the 2014-2015 season because he wanted to show more emotion with it.