2017-2018 State of Russian Ice Dance

[VIETgrlTerifa]

Although ice coverage and travel distance isn't specifically listed in the GOE guidelines, the definition of a twizzle is that they should cover ice or it is understood that twizzles should really move (that's why most teams now try to cover a lot of ice), so I can see S/B feeling that the sit twizzles were opening them up to scrutiny since at times they did lack good distance on them.

 

[Snow63]

Although ice coverage and travel distance isn't specifically listed in the GOE guidelines, the definition of a twizzle is that they should cover ice, so I can see S/B feeling that the sit twizzles were opening them up to scrutiny since at times they did lack good distance on them.

There's no such definition as 'travelling distance', so there can't be 'not enough' traveling, or 'travel better' or 'travel worse'. You travel (twizzle) or you do it on one spot (pirouette). In this video they clearly don't do them on one spot.

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

There's no such definition as 'travelling distance', so there can't be 'not enough' traveling, or 'travel better' or 'travel worse'. You travel (twizzle) or you do it on one spot (pirouette). In this video they clearly don't do them on one spot.

Except most understood descriptions of good twizzles (not just twizzles but ones that are considered well-done) are twizzles that move and cover a lot of ice as. You can keep fighting with me all you want, but it's clear that S/B changed their twizzles, ice dancers get criticized if their twizzles lack ice coverage, and most teams are trying to cover as much ice as possible these days now that the standard has gone up in the past 3 seasons. Having them travel at all is good to have them count as a twizzle for credit and level purposes, but then how well they move and how much ice they cover is reflected in scores even if they are not explicitly stated in the GOE. You really think a twizzle that barely moves would get the same GOE as one that moves well generally speaking? Now about S/B, it is odd to me that they changed their twizzles (maybe they'll change them back) because the sit position helped them get pretty high GOE despite some comments about lack of coverage on the sit position set.

 

[Snow63]

Except most descriptions of good twizzles are that they should move and cover as much ice as possible. You can keep fighting with me all you want, but it's clear that they changed their twizzles, ice dancers get criticized if their twizzles lack ice coverage, and most teams are trying to cover as much ice as possible these days now that the standard has gone up in the past 3 seasons. Having them travel at all is good to have them count as a twizzle for level purposes, but then how well they move and how much ice they cover is reflected in scores even if they are not explicitly stated in the GOE. You really think a twizzle that barely moves would get the same GOE as one that moves well generally speaking?

I don't fight with you, just disagree.

What is description of good twizzles? Is it in official documents? Where does it say about covering as much ice as possible? There are written requirements, and this is my point. I agree that their twizzles are little, and I agree that it should be punished and big ice coverage should be rewarded. But first, there should be a rule about it. Why do you disagree with that? And count these twizzles as pirouettes is against ISU rules (now I talk only about the video chapis posted).

 

[Barb]

The rules say

Adjustments to Levels:
1. If any part of any first two Twizzles becomes a Pirouette or checked Three Turns, its Level shall be reduced:
- by one Level if one or two of the four Twizzles become Pirouettes or checked Three Turns;
- by two Levels if three or four of the four Twizzles become Pirouettes or checked Three Turns.

 

[Snow63]

Having them travel at all is good to have them count as a twizzle for credit and level purposes, but then how well they move and how much ice they cover is reflected in scores even if they are not explicitly stated in the GOE.

My English, perhaps, is not well enought to express my POV. I was talking about level, they received level 1 for the twizzles chapis posted, I disagree with that.

You really think a twizzle that barely moves would get the same GOE as one that moves well generally speaking?

I think this is how it should be according to rules in 2014. That rules should be changed is another story. The ISU even excluded 'flow and speed' characteristic of GOE. Why? Why should they be punished for some unwritten rule?

- - - Updated - - -

The rules say

Adjustments to Levels:
1. If any part of any first two Twizzles becomes a Pirouette or checked Three Turns, its Level shall be reduced:
- by one Level if one or two of the four Twizzles become Pirouettes or checked Three Turns;
- by two Levels if three or four of the four Twizzles become Pirouettes or checked Three Turns.

Yes, but where's pirouettes? There was none.

 

[Barb]

Yes, but where's pirouettes? There was none.

you said it, some officials thought it were pirouettes, if there is not an official measurement of ice coverage to differentiate twizzles of pirouettes, I guess they use their common sense. You do not think those are pirouettes, maybe they do.

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

I think this is how it should be according to rules in 2014. That rules should be changed is another story. They even excluded 'flow and speed' characteristic of GOE. Why should they be punished for some unwrittent rule?

Because judges will be judges. I think there are a lot of elements that are graded by individual judges in ways that may include more unofficial bullet points based on what they're looking for. The rules do allow for some interpretation, like if a twizzle is a turn that should travel, I can see some judges going "ah, so the more a twizzle travels, the better quality it is".

 

[Snow63]

you said it, some officials thought it were pirouettes, if there is not an official measurement of ice coverage to differentiate twizzles of pirouettes, I guess they use their common sense. You do not think those are pirouettes, maybe they do.

There is, pirouette is done in one place No traveling. At all. Why did they use common sense when they should be using official definitions?

Anyway, I appreciate that they're pushing the envelope. Hopefully more teams will follow.

 

[Snow63]

Because judges will be judges. I think there are a lot of elements that are graded by individual judges in ways that may include more unofficial bullet points based on what they're looking for. The rules do allow for some interpretation, like if a twizzle is a turn that should travel, I can see some judges going "ah, so the more a twizzle travels, the better quality it is".

And that's true. And it's sad.

 

[Barb]

There is, pirouette is done in one place No traveling. At all. Why did they use common sense when they should be using official definitions?

Anyway, I appreciate that they're pushing the envelope. Hopefully more teams will follow.

Because there are many ways of interpreting rules. If we read literal not travelling at all, then a skater never would be doing pirouettes because they move at least 0.5 cm of the spot and there is not a measure in mm or cm to define it. Everyone would be doing twizzles traveling 1cm :sarcasm:. It is like those series where everyone know who is the murderer but the lawyer get an interpretation of the laws just to favor him . Written rules have many flaws.

 

[Snow63]

Because there are many ways of interpreting rules. If we read literal not travelling at all, then a skater never would be doing pirouettes because they move at least 0.5 cm of the spot and there is not a measure in mm or cm to define it. Everyone would be doing twizzles traveling 1cm :sarcasm:. It is like those series where everyone know who is the murderer but the lawyer get an interpretation of the laws just to favor him . Written rules have many flaws.

So true. But unwritten rules are the death of any sport Besides, their traveling was visible (clearly not 1 cm), they executed twizzles right on the writings on the ice

Anyway, we have heard each other. Rules are not perfect and have many flaws, glad we both agree with that.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

but the other sets were ¨fine¨, someone said that maybe they are doing many steps between sets.

In that case level should be reduced by 1, its not directly L1 by the rules. So they probably made more mistakes, no clear change of edge like Snow63 suggested. But still it looks like cool twizzles. I also agree with Snow63 that when judges are uncertain if it something is according the rules (or its not), they should judge in skaters favour. We definetely need more variety in ice dance elements.

 

[bramweld]

I took a trip down memory lane and found this.

Test Skates I/K, 2011, Latin. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMV2jDMCMuM

Then I compared it with I/S, 2017, Latin https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKtxI97xVLo

Only two things to say;

1. I/S have potential, I'm really, really interested in their development
2. EI, is probably the best ice dancer that Russia has had for a long time for that reason, I hope this partnership is rewarding for her.

EDIT: the junior pairs of S/A and Gorshkov's new pair U/N were really impressive this morning in their JGP SD event. They currrently sit second and third. I found S/A more compelling than S/S so the juniors are pushing up. If they can find the right coaching they could break into the elite senior ranks within the next 4 -5 years. So the current seniors really need to set themselves apart if they want any longevity. IMHO, of course.

 

[Barb]

the junior pairs of S/A and Gorshkov's new pair U/N were really impressive this morning in their JGP SD event. They currrently sit second and third. I found S/A more compelling than S/S so the juniors are pushing up. If they can find the right coaching they could break into the elite senior ranks within the next 4 -5 years. So the current seniors really need to set themselves apart if they want any longevity. IMHO, of course.

wow, U/N have much potential!!!, and they are only 15 and 16yo

 

[Snow63]

Honestly, I don't see so much potential in Elena and Anton right now (Anton is not even Ruslan's level sadly), so if they will even repeat Ilynikh/Zhiganshin results (no, I'm not talking about National Champions) it will be superb for them. Any news where they will start their international season? Or we will not see them till Nationals?

Anyone else gets junior Sinitsina/Zhiganshin vibes from Skopcova/Aleshin? It's like a deja vu for me.

 

[bramweld]

Sinitsina/Zhiganshin vibes, no way. Anastasia is way more expressive and the dynamic between S/A is much more mature and warmer. As for where I/S will start there is no news. For right now they're still becoming a pair, I would guess so nothing before October/November maybe?

As per Anton, he fairly recently made the switch from singles to pairs so he just wouldn't have the credentials of a Ruslan who has been in ice dance for the majority of his life. But if Anastasia Sp could make the switch so convincingly as well as others I'd rather wait before passing judgement. At the very least Lena gets to keep on competing.

 

[Snow63]

Sinitsina/Zhiganshin vibes, no way. Anastasia is way more expressive than Victoria and much less wooden and the dynamic between S/A is much more mature and warmer. As for where I/S will start there is no news. For right now they're still becoming a pair, I would guess so nothing before October/November maybe?

As per Anton, he fairly recently made the switch from singles to pairs so he just wouldn't have the credentials of a Ruslan who has been in ice dance for the majority of his life. But if Anastasia Sp could make the switch so convincingly as well as others I'd rather wait before passing judgement. At the very least Lena gets to keep on competing.

I've read somewhere that they plan to go to 2 Russian Cup events (Sochi and Moscow) and Minsk or Warsaw events before Nationals. I hope it's true.

 

[bramweld]

I've read somewhere that they plan to go to 2 Russian Cup events (Sochi and Moscow) and Minsk or Warsaw events before Nationals. I hope it's true.

Well, let's see some weird stuff can appear in some of these forums.

 

[sunnystars]

I see Elena and Anton as a work in progress. I like how he presents Elena. He's not OTT but he's not a wall-flower (ala Ruslan in their early partnering days). However, it's really apparent that Elena is doing most of the work at the moment. She's the one that's basically dragging him everywhere. Still, I can't wait to see how they grow together.