Artur Dmetriyev on Tutberidze's methods, state of Russian skating | Golden Skate

Artur Dmetriyev on Tutberidze's methods, state of Russian skating

Edwin

СделаноВХрустальном!
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 5, 2019
“ Tutberidze’s methods are embedded in our coaching culture. "

Frank interview with two-time Olympic champion Artur Dmitriyev.

The season in figure skating, despite the lack of a World Championship, turned out to be oversaturated. The triumph at the European Championship, the completion and suspension of careers, the roller coaster of our results in the Grand Prix series, the debut of several Russian girls at the senior level. In a big conversation with SE, two-time Olympic champion and current mentor Artur Dmitriyev compared Eteri Tutberidze with Stanislav Zhuk, spoke about the serious stratification in the coaching workshop and the problems of Russian figure skating, which are hidden behind the showcase of victories.

Our figure skating will not lose its class over a year

- The abolition of the World Championships and the shutdown of figure skating - a blow primarily to Russia? The trio of Trusova, Shcherbakova, Kostornaya, in fact, lost medals, and who knows what will happen in a year?

" I would not call them the main losers; all athletes lost. What is happening is an extraordinary situation. And this is a very serious blow to figure skating, from which it will not quickly recover. But the level that our team has gained is respectable. I saw how seriously everyone was preparing for Montreal. I think in a year such class will not get not lost. We are waiting for the restoration of life. In my opinion, this may drag on and not be limited to a couple of months. "

- But still, the main result of the season is probably the dominance of the trio of Eteri Tutberidze. Can it already be considered the main phenomenon in the history of our female skating?

" The issue is debatable, nevertheless, there are still applicants, but I hope this trinity is still ahead. It’s just that from time to time a leading group appears in the world. As it happened with Moskvina in pairs, Dubova in dancing, Orser, Mishin in single skating. No one could believe that the Mishin boys could be beaten. Plyushchenko, Yagudin, Urmanov ... Now they are gone. But Mishin did not become less great, right? "

- It is not clear what will happen to the ISU Congress, but how do you like the idea of ​​changing the age limit? A fight against this group?

" When we talk about this reform, we need to answer the question - what do we want to achieve? It turns out that our junior skating will be more developed than the senior, and these young boys and girls will not be allowed to rise. It looks silly. There will be a bunch of juniors who will finish there. I’m silent about the question of what to do with boys' skating then. "

Forced training doesn't work with guys

- Maybe we just have a breakdown time, then everyone will learn how to quadruple, and these conversations will go away?

" They will not learn this at all ages. There is this specificity of female skating. And Eteri found a specific method which with the girls will give a permanent result. Her group realised that strict discipline was needed. Children are immediately put into circulation, so to speak. There is a similar thing in gymnastics, sports and art, even in circus art, where children are allowed to work. Fearlessness helps. Girls at this age are ahead of boys by a large margin; they cannot even withstand such loads. These are features of physiology. Well, one more component of success: advanced helpers. Dudakov unequivocally found himself working with children. Eteri for a long time lacked a second coach, for technique. All successes fell on his coming. Without Sergey, this group would not exist in its current form. But with boys, the forced training method doesn't work like that. "

- There are these talks of 'inhibition of development', do they have any foundation?

“ Nobody knows. I think the load itself slows it down. Before the Olympics, I remember Zagitova and Medvyedeva ran for 40 minutes after each training session, mornings and evenings.

Eteri’s methods, in fact, are not hers, they have been used before. She just became famous, and this turned out to be the turning point. Parents and children go where the success is. The best go to her, but not so many. It turns out that she has the right to pick and choose from the lot, set conditions. You cannot comply - you are free, go. "

- Many consider it too difficult psychologically.

" About the same thing happened in hockey under Tarasov, Tikhonov. They locked the players at the base, and they trained poorly - they couldn't let go of their wives. Fed up, Tarasov once a week also collected these wives! And he said something like: "You tell your man so that he works normally." This is the approach. He didn’t crack the whip. Created the conditions. In America, too, they prepared this hard, like before their victory in 1980.

Eteri also keeps track of everything. No flaw will not pass without notice, anyone will be punished. This may be undemocratic, but this word is not applicable here. Does she cross the line? For this you need to know the situation from the inside. I worked with her from zero, but then it was different. "

A huge number of talented youths disappear in the USA

- A closed to the public group - is that right?

" They have the right. Is this good or bad? Complex issue. Probably, to some extent this is their weakness. But too much attention is also bad. Last season, this, in my opinion, this hurt Dima Aliyev after his Silver at the 2018 European Championships. Nevertheless, figure skating is still not in the spotlights enough. We had booms of popularity, but not on this scale.

Well, we must understand that everything that is said in the case of Eteri is embedded in our coaching system, even our sports culture. Tutberidze isn't even the toughest yet. There was, for example, this coach Stanislav Zhuk. Super-authoritarian. Eteri at least does not refer to the army. But he could. Not only for poor work, but for the fact that a person refused to come to him. He invited him over, asking: “ How old? 18? Well, go and serve (the army). ” And the man carries a machine gun in Kandalaksha, returned as an invalid. I know these stories firsthand. At the same time, he was an outstanding coach. "

- And in this there is no corpus delicti at all? By today's standards, they could have locked him up.

" How are we to judge? He didn't make him an invalid. It’s just that when you give a person to a sporting battalion, there could be some major from CSKA enlisting him. Such things have happened for real. It was a harsh time. And in sports as well. Authoritarianism, it turns out, is a necessary condition. "

- How then do they succeed in the West? Somehow different?

" In Russia, the coaching culture is definitely tougher than abroad. But I spent many years in America, and there are also authoritarian experts there. But the main thing is that there are definitely more rinks there than overhere. Just the kids are mostly lazy. There are many who wish, but the federation has practically no influence on the initial stage of preparation. Parents pay, and they decide who is a good coach, who is bad. So they run from one to another. In my experience, only three months is needed for an athlete to understand what is required. And three more for him to do it. Three - four coaching changes later - two years thrown away. This way in the USA, a huge number of talented youths are disappearing.

The second factor is that you cannot force a child there. Overhere, I can come and say - I need her to train this much. But there parents will say - we don’t have that kind of money. Private economy. And those who have money see it as a hobby. And when time comes for high school, university - that’s it, they take the child away. Let him study. Those who are now in the US team, need to find sponsors, seek donors.

- Here, Anastasiya Tarakanova tried to do this.

“ Even there, such a system is not always effective. Do you understand the peculiarity of figure skating? It's like ballet, you can’t teach a person by snapping your fingers. From what I've heard, for example, in boxing: here is a strong guy, let's teach him the techniques, in a year he will be the champion of the region, in his second he will fight for the world championship. In figure skating, if you haven’t completed the basics by the time you are you six, you won’t win anything in a year. It needs a system. And the training system in Russia is now the best and most advanced in the world. "

- We've dismantled North America. Europe, let's consider, is still recovering from a knockout in Graz ...

" I understand, Japan remains. There is another extreme - a phenomenal respect for the coach. And the Japanese were on fire, the trainers used and killed children with volumes of work. Skaters did not survive. But the trainer is god, and he is worshiped. Eteri partially created this feeling in her group, the children are afraid of her. And respect her. The results are obvious. "

We have a stratification into top coaches and the rest - this is a serious problem

- Surely there are a lot of problems in Russian figure skating that are ignored due to the usual topics about Tutberidze's pupil's ages and victories. You travel a lot around the country, what are your observations?

" There really are problems. Well, for example, this. Recently, many ice rinks are opening, but there are no good specialists. This is indicated by local leaders. We lose many good skaters. That is, in the regions there are trainers at a level of skating while holding hands. They get their 30 thousand rubles, and earn the rest with skating sessions. Either they skate their own, or others'. But they don’t know how to do this, and they don’t want to learn. Everybody is happy. You do not bear responsibility for proper skating, there is no systematic approach. Half of Moscow passed through their hands, but this is a stupid business by and large. And why learn when everything is there?

At the next stage, they start not allowing the kids to go anywhere else. Because parents are not stupid, they take their children to master classes. We have such a semi-American system. And those times - they begin to jump. Double axel, triple Toeloop. Then they come back - and they are retrained, they are forbidden to do the exercises that were advised in Moscow. That is, we have a class of top trainers, and at the average level - a vacuum. This stratification is a serious problem in the long run. "

- Still they talk about the boom. Do you feel the hype?

" There are more singles, the level of pair skating has increased. But there is a serious limitation in the form of growth. When the girl is 165 centimeters - she needs a partner just under two meters. There aren't that many guys this tall. Plus, many girls are afraid to switch from singles to pairs, throws, twist lifts - this is really scary. Finally, pair skating becomes technically difficult, there are many nuances, not all are able to hold on.

As for the female single skating, here, anyway, the doors are closed. Only the first three get into the national team. It turns out that the others hang on a bit and quit.

Let's believe Medvedeva, but it was not just about her skates

- How do you like the idea of ​​changing citizenship? When it comes to Medvyedeva or Tuktamysheva, everyone reacts quite sharply to this proposal.

" I think this will happen. Not necessarily with them, but with someone else. I am calm about the idea of Medvyedeva changing citizenship, for example. But is it worth it, does she need to rely so much on sports? This will only mean that she could not stand the competition in Russia. She will still know that there are more powerful skaters, comes to international tournaments and loses, taking fifth place. She isn't interested in fifth place. So does she need this transition if it doesn't offer her a chance? "

- But this year there was this chance to get on the national team. If not for the strange story with her skates.

" Broken skates are a complex topic. I recently had a boy skating, his skate got broken too. The front attachment came loose, the second and third ones held. And he jumped triples. "

- That is, Medvyedeva could still compete, she was deceiving us?

" Let's just say: let's believe Medvyedeva, but it seems to me that it was not just about her skates. Medvyedeva has done so much for our sport, let's forgive her some minor failures. "

- Judging of modern figure skating in Russia and abroad - a problem?

" I wouldn't say that there are signs of a critical situation, everything is quite adequate. Unless in Russia they begin to reward higher than abroad. Dance, probably, remains different, the judicial system there is very difficult. No wonder our sport was called "figure skating and dancing on ice." Showdowns there are often ugly. The rules are made in such a way that you can always count something if you wish. Although the rules on rotated jumps or not in single skating are now tightened. And in pair skating, I generally had guys who lost victories after the end of the competition and the publication of protocols. This happened in Zagreb. Refereeing is a difficult topic, but not the main one in figure skating. The main thing is the quality of the athletes' performance. Their ability to find a balance between complexity, musicality and expressiveness. "

In the 90s we went after petrol to resurface the rink. Now all conditions for victories are in place

- Your son is one of the few in the world who is trying to jump a quad Axel. Now Yuzuru Hanyu is getting close to jump him. What is the peculiarity of this jump, why can't it be done for so many years?

" Artur even had a win-win attempt, but he fell from one of them. It is too late for him to do this anymore now he is getting older. Moreover, he went to CSKA, changed his coach, lost a lot of time. He broke his leg with another trainer, had an accident, got a concussion, switched to another trainer, had an operation on his knee, and then came to me. From each coach, he still took a certain experience. But am I a wizard or something? I understand that this jump is a chance to go down in history. In addition, working with your own son is not so simple.

As for the Axel. The quad axel depends on the initial speed of rotation. The higher it is, the easier it will be to make a quadruple, but at the same time it should be optimal from the push off. Like a high jumper - he does not accelerate, like Bolt at the hundred meters, but seeks a moment to throw himself up. The development of a person jumping upwards is a very slow task. The second thing - it is necessary to cheat the rotation from the ice as much as possible, without violating the rules. That is, a lot of axis are immediately involved. "

- In Mishin’s books there is usually a lot about this: cosines, sines ...

" The main thing is that the eye is trained. Athletes are not required to know the sines and cosines, they will think that the trainer is sick, if you explain everything to them in goniometry. This does not mean that the skater is stupid. They have other tasks. The coach must find the words and accurately formulate the task of the athlete. "

- Is Artur okay with preparation right now?

" How to tell you. You asked about the problems, here you are, one more. He did not get into the national team - accordingly, he lost all support from the federation. All issues related to massage therapists, medicine, costumes and skates fell back on his shoulders financially. If you play sports, then making money at this moment is almost impossible. The balance between earnings and training is a difficult thing.

That is, we are talking about a boom, but the days of rich shows in America are long behind, now American football is in favour. And the abilities of our stars to enrich also remained with that era. In the 90s, the Champions On Ice show fed everyone for months ahead. In Russia at that time there was no money. It came to this: you come to the rink, but it is not surfaced. You ask the driver of the machine, and he says: "There is no petrol." And I went to the nearest petrol station with cans, Urmanov went, bought at his own expense, stood in lines waiting. And in such conditions, you can also become Olympic champion, we took all the gold of the 1992 Olympics. It would be a desire. Now in Russia everything for this is available.

(c) Дмитрий Кузнецов
-----
https://www.sport-express.ru/figure...-intervyu-artura-dmitrieva-starshego-1657070/

Kuznetsov and his agenda ...
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
This thought-provoking interview by Olympic champion Dmitriyev was posted in the Russian Ladies' thread. We found it of sufficient interest to spotlight it separately. Thanks to Edwin for the translation.
 

Tolstoj

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 21, 2015
I'm interested to see if and when the age proposal will be effective, how that will change the Eteri system.

Cause we have yet to see any of their girls in their rink with that training regime continue to skater after the age of 17-18 and what kind of results that athlete can bring compared to the early seasons in seniors.

I think that's the reason why it's not working all that well with boys, even with the toughest workers. I think they ask too much at a very early age, all at once because the coaches are used to win it all in 2-3 years from age 13 to age 15-16 and then moving on to the next one regardless of whether you achieved something or not in that period. It takes years not just to learn quads, but to do those elements in a long program with all the other elements and not feeling tired at the end.

If the age proposal gets approved, they will be encouraged to stick with an athlete longer, which i think is beneficial for the skaters. (no one wants to retire at that level without even having a chance to compete internationally)

I'm not saying they can't figure out how to win with more mature skaters, i think they will find a way, but we haven't seen it yet, so i'm interested to see how much their methods would change in order to make that happen.

As for the rest he is right: we have seen this system in the past from russian coaches, it's very hard but it pays off if there is a big enough motivation behind, though i don't believe this would be allowed in any western country and not because "laziness" but because we value other things a lot like the individual mindset, his post-competitive life (which is important cause Figure Skating career is very short), this tough regime can often lead to all sorts of psychological issues,...

Finally i don't love the idea of changing nationality just to have more opportunities to compete and win, even though i guess that's always been a thing in sports, but to me you represent the country you feel the most attached to, i'd never compete for another country just for money or success.
 

flanker

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 10, 2018
Country
Czech-Republic
I don't think it somehow works bad with boys/men if we compare them with the others in the russian environment. She has junior worlds champion, junior worlds medalist, JGPF medalist, two times russian junior champion, russian novice champions, she also has european medalist now. Although Morisi will probably not become one of the worlds absolute elite skaters (which he wouldn't probably become under any other coach as well), he has pretty solid results being not exactly junior/early senior age (or young boy's height :biggrin:), if clean he can be in the worlds top 10. To me, under Eteri he can do the best he is able to achieve. So again, though Eteri's school is not dominant among men now, her school definitely is not below the others and through time the results are getting better rather than worse. If the current Eteri's boys don't suffer any significant injury, I believe they are very promising for the future of russian men's skating.

Finally i don't love the idea of changing nationality just to have more opportunities to compete and win, even though i guess that's always been a thing in sports, but to me you represent the country you feel the most attached to, i'd never compete for another country just for money or success.

If Italy has accepted Hotárek, why any other country shoudn't accept some of the russian skaters whose only guilt is that they were born int he country that has too many athletes for just three entries in the important int. comeptitions. :biggrin:

Honestly I don't like it much either, but if the number of entries per country wouldn't be increased, that's the only way.
 

flanker

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 10, 2018
Country
Czech-Republic
BTW, I don't understand one thing. You know I'm not the biggest supporter of Medvedeva now, but why the... someone still suggests and circles around her intentions to change the citizenship. She's never done anything (at least as I'm aware) in that way and towards Russia as a country she always kept the absolute loyalty. Well, but people probably need something to talk about all the time.
 

Tolstoj

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 21, 2015
I don't think it somehow works bad with boys/men if we compare them with the others in the russian environment. She has junior worlds champion, junior worlds medalist, JGPF medalist, two times russian junior champion, russian novice champions, she also has european medalist now. Although Morisi will probably not become one of the worlds absolute elite skaters (which he wouldn't probably become under any other coach as well), he has pretty solid results being not exactly junior/early senior age (or young boy's height :biggrin:), if clean he can be in the worlds top 10. To me, under Eteri he can do the best he is able to achieve. So again, though Eteri's school is not dominant among men now, her school definitely is not below the others and through time the results are getting better rather than worse. If the current Eteri's boys don't suffer any significant injury, I believe they are very promising for the future of russian men's skating.

Idk i guess time will tell, i'm interested to see how this develops, cause i thought they were doing an exceptional work with Samsonov up until last year, but this season felt like a step backwards, rushing so hard to get those quads which aren't amazing in the first place (they are 3.5 jumps, judges were even generous on calling those fully rotated many times), nor they are consistent and you know quad falls inevitably brings more injuries, so saying "if the current Eteri boys don't suffer any significant injury" is a bit asking for a miracle, when you are rushing to get a quad lutz or a quad flip done by a 12-13 years old and most of the time that is a fall.

Success in men skating comes a bit later than the ladies, it's almost impossible to rush it and make it all happen in one year as it happens with the girls.

I feel like in the past they were in a slightly better position with Voronov and Pitkeev, considering those did get more medals in seniors than Kvitelashvili has done all those years, and they were some of the best male skaters in Russia by results, who knows how many of their current juniors will ever have a chance to compete in seniors, if they don't retire or switch before.

So i don't love where this new approach is going, but they still have time to improve, and judges are giving them the benefit of the doubt in juniors still, but at the same time it's also right to wonder how much there is of an incentive to make it work, cause they already have the ladies dominant, if they keep that going it will guarantee medals for many years to come, they don't necessarily need successful boys too.

If Italy has accepted Hotárek, why any other country shoudn't accept some of the russian skaters whose only guilt is that they were born int he country that has too many athletes for just three entries in the important int. comeptitions. :biggrin:

Honestly I don't like it much either, but if the number of entries per country wouldn't be increased, that's the only way.

Oh i don't blame the athletes for doing that if they want to, and like i said it's very common in many sports not just figure skating: me personally i don't think i would ever do it, but it's easy to say for us that we've never been in that position.
 

Edwin

СделаноВХрустальном!
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 5, 2019
It will be interesting to follow the development and 'raising to senior level' of the boys Samsonov, Lukin, Kolesnikov, Knyazev, Fyodotov et al. I think the collective of trainers have gathered sufficient boys to give their class 'gravitas' and importance to balance with the girls.

No doubt it is their desire and ambition to prove they can work as successful with boys like with girls. Despite the gender related difficulties (perceived or not) of working with older, pubescent boys, which is confirmed by other trainers like Sergey Davydov.
 

jenaj

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 17, 2003
Country
United-States
Articles like these tend to focus too much on ladies skating. If the American system is so problematic and American kids "lazy," how does he explain Nathan Chen, Vincent Zhou, Jason Brown and Tomoki Hiwatashi. Right now, the US men are as strong as any country, even Japan.
 

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 3, 2014
Country
United-States
Articles like these tend to focus too much on ladies skating. If the American system is so problematic and American kids "lazy," how does he explain Nathan Chen, Vincent Zhou, Jason Brown and Tomoki Hiwatashi. Right now, the US men are as strong as any country, even Japan.

:agree:

Dmitriev Sr may know about Russian skating, or Russian ladies. :shrug:

He obviously knows Jackson B. Squat about American skaters, their motivations, or their work habits. He should have stuck to what he presumably knows.:laugh:
 

milkgirl

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 27, 2018
I think it`s only possible to judge about the young and small Eteri Tutberidze skaters when they are grown up. It`s much easier to jump with a small body then at the time you are elder and your body has changed, everybody knows that. There are some skaters that even lost their jumps i.e. Georgy Kunitsa ( he got taller) so did ilya Skirda some years ago. Both were great hopes for Sambo 70.
I prefer skaters grown up skaters in senior competitions.
 

beachmouse

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 23, 2017
Articles like these tend to focus too much on ladies skating. If the American system is so problematic and American kids "lazy," how does he explain Nathan Chen, Vincent Zhou, Jason Brown and Tomoki Hiwatashi. Right now, the US men are as strong as any country, even Japan.

I do think the US approach to youth sport in general tends to be broader than a lot of other countries- the goal is to get all youth to try to engage more in physical activity and organized competition even if they aren't particularly good at it or particularly motivated to do so. So you get different signal/noise or wheat/chaff compared to other countries where you need to show both lots of promise or lots of motivation to go past age 10 or so in sport. (And unless you're a gymnast or figure skater, there's often encouragement to not specialize too much until age 11-12 but rather keep trying different sports until nearly puberty to try to find the best fit)

So while you have a top level working extremely hard and wanting to take on the world, we also get a lot of 'well they're not great but better they're exercising properly instead of on the couch with video games and social media' when many other countries would have largely pushed out that kind of athlete early on for failure to advance fast enough.
 

flanker

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 10, 2018
Country
Czech-Republic
Idk i guess time will tell, i'm interested to see how this develops, cause i thought they were doing an exceptional work with Samsonov up until last year, but this season felt like a step backwards, rushing so hard to get those quads which aren't amazing in the first place (they are 3.5 jumps, judges were even generous on calling those fully rotated many times), nor they are consistent and you know quad falls inevitably brings more injuries, so saying "if the current Eteri boys don't suffer any significant injury" is a bit asking for a miracle, when you are rushing to get a quad lutz or a quad flip done by a 12-13 years old and most of the time that is a fall.

Success in men skating comes a bit later than the ladies, it's almost impossible to rush it and make it all happen in one year as it happens with the girls.

OK, show me consistent top junior man now, not just in Russia (who would be also safe from the danger of an injury) :laugh:
All top junior men who've met with Daniil have exactly the same problem, russian non-Eteri boys, japanese boys, US and canadian boys are even worse with that and we should not ommit Daniel Grassl.

I feel like in the past they were in a slightly better position with Voronov and Pitkeev, considering those did get more medals in seniors than Kvitelashvili has done all those years, and they were some of the best male skaters in Russia by results, who knows how many of their current juniors will ever have a chance to compete in seniors, if they don't retire or switch before.

So i don't love where this new approach is going, but they still have time to improve, and judges are giving them the benefit of the doubt in juniors still, but at the same time it's also right to wonder how much there is of an incentive to make it work, cause they already have the ladies dominant, if they keep that going it will guarantee medals for many years to come, they don't necessarily need successful boys too.

It is necessary to be careful when comparing results five years old with today. The system is different, the competitors as well. Though, Morisi is still the counter argument that Eteri can work only with girls/young men. In his 24-25 he is better than he was as a junior/young senior.

Oh i don't blame the athletes for doing that if they want to, and like i said it's very common in many sports not just figure skating: me personally i don't think i would ever do it, but it's easy to say for us that we've never been in that position.

That's why I say more entries for a country or different system of qualification for the most important events should be introduced.
 

flanker

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 10, 2018
Country
Czech-Republic
I think it`s only possible to judge about the young and small Eteri Tutberidze skaters when they are grown up. It`s much easier to jump with a small body then at the time you are elder and your body has changed, everybody knows that. There are some skaters that even lost their jumps i.e. Georgy Kunitsa ( he got taller) so did ilya Skirda some years ago. Both were great hopes for Sambo 70.
I prefer skaters grown up skaters in senior competitions.

What jumps exacly has Kunitsa lost? He never had solid quads before he even entered Sambo. Not to mention there are many skaters, men and women, in other groups all around the world who were hopes of their couántries and never made it, it's nothing unusual.

Also, this "It`s much easier to jump with a small body" BS is truly annoying. If it is so, why there are not tons of "small body skaters" with the big jumps? Why it is so rare?
 

flanker

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 10, 2018
Country
Czech-Republic
:agree:

Dmitriev Sr may know about Russian skating, or Russian ladies. :shrug:

He obviously knows Jackson B. Squat about American skaters, their motivations, or their work habits. He should have stuck to what he presumably knows.:laugh:

The question remains what miss Kiira Korpi knows about russian ladies that she feels entitled to speak about them publicly and her opinion is so promoted by some.
 

YuBluByMe

May Rika spin her hair into GOLD….in 2026.
Final Flight
Joined
Mar 21, 2018
Idk i guess time will tell, i'm interested to see how this develops, cause i thought they were doing an exceptional work with Samsonov up until last year, but this season felt like a step backwards, rushing so hard to get those quads which aren't amazing in the first place

They’re doing an awful job with Samsonov. Just terrible. I’m getting this feeling he’s going to end up like Erokhov.

Success in men skating comes a bit later than the ladies, it's almost impossible to rush it and make it all happen in one year as it happens with the girls.

I recently said in another thread on here that there’s something fundamentally wrong with the Russian men’s program (despite the obvious talent) that’s causing lack of success. If coaches are attempting to use the exact same methods for the boys as for ladies, then they’re begging for failure.

The reason Mozalev was so successful this year is because he didn’t have any planned falls in his programs, unlike most of the other Russian men. I also noticed Gumennik finally (hopefully?) ditched the planned fall on the 4Lz and instead worked on improving his 4S. And look what happened! THAT is what should be emulated, not trying to learn all the quads at 14 only to completely change your technique because you shot up like a weed two years later. Or worse. Trying to learn all the quads and then putting them in your programs after landing them four times in training.... out of 150 attempts.
 

YuBluByMe

May Rika spin her hair into GOLD….in 2026.
Final Flight
Joined
Mar 21, 2018
Articles like these tend to focus too much on ladies skating. If the American system is so problematic and American kids "lazy," how does he explain Nathan Chen, Vincent Zhou, Jason Brown and Tomoki Hiwatashi. Right now, the US men are as strong as any country, even Japan.

Kolyada was practically a one-man show for a few years. And he’s still the only Russian man with great skating skills. Also the only one that can spin worth a damn. Basically, the only “all-around” skater with Aliev being the only one closest to him. It’s a shame Kolyada’s a hot mess half the time. Maybe the up-and-comers can change things, but experience tells me not to hold my breath.

Russian men are behind the American and Japanese men. In the same way the world (except the Japanese) need to study the Russian method used for the ladies, Russia will do well to study the methods used by those ahead of them in men’s singles.

EDIT: I’ve noticed that my words will read better if the first and last paragraph were switched. I can’t do it now so I’ll do it tomorrow.
 

Edwin

СделаноВХрустальном!
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 5, 2019
Are the US men in a systematic program? Most likely not, so the comparison doesn't stand IMO.

I don't know enough about Japan, Korea and China programs wether they are systematic or not. I.e. copied to a large extent from the Russian program. AFAIK, Russia is the only society with these specialised sports schools for children and youth, in all categories of sport.

"Systematic" can have both a good and a bad meaning, depending on its outlay and implementation.
 

Tolstoj

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 21, 2015
OK, show me consistent top junior man now, not just in Russia (who would be also safe from the danger of an injury) :laugh:
All top junior men who've met with Daniil have exactly the same problem, russian non-Eteri boys, japanese boys, US and canadian boys are even worse with that and we should not ommit Daniel Grassl.



It is necessary to be careful when comparing results five years old with today. The system is different, the competitors as well. Though, Morisi is still the counter argument that Eteri can work only with girls/young men. In his 24-25 he is better than he was as a junior/young senior.

When you add quads nobody is ever ever 100% consistent, you can realize that with ladies too. Eteri girls used to be super consistent, never missing a jump, and now that they added quads, falls and pops are happening more often.

But i'd argue there are degrees of inconsistency, one thing is to land a quad most of the time (like Shcherbakova's quad lutz this season) and have a couple of bad attempts throughout the season, another is like landing it once in a program (not even in both segments) and falling on it all the time the rest of the season. It reminded me of 2018-19 season when Kolyada practiced the quad sal all the time and landed it only once or twice. If a jump is not your own, it's always going to be like that. (even though when landed his 4s was beautiful)

Daniel Grassl, Andrei Mozalev, Yuma Kagiyama are all more consistent than Samsonov and maybe Kvitelashvili also (he has some good skates here and there but also some really bad ones), you can disguise it in juniors but in seniors time will tell those who will keep the technique and those who will vanish, since like i said it's not a one year thing, it's a long term commitment so you need a reliable technique to sustain all those competitions.

But again i don't think it's all bad, in the case of Samsonov (who still managed to medal at most events after all) or even Fedotov they are still young, they are still in that developing process so you can still fix what it's not working, but it is important to do it sooner rather than later.

They’re doing an awful job with Samsonov. Just terrible. I’m getting this feeling he’s going to end up like Erokhov.



I recently said in another thread on here that there’s something fundamentally wrong with the Russian men’s program (despite the obvious talent) that’s causing lack of success. If coaches are attempting to use the exact same methods for the boys as for ladies, then they’re begging for failure.

The reason Mozalev was so successful this year is because he didn’t have any planned falls in his programs, unlike most of the other Russian men. I also noticed Gumennik finally (hopefully?) ditched the planned fall on the 4Lz and instead worked on improving his 4S. And look what happened! THAT is what should be emulated, not trying to learn all the quads at 14 only to completely change your technique because you shot up like a weed two years later. Or worse. Trying to learn all the quads and then putting them in your programs after landing them four times in training.... out of 150 attempts.

If they keep pushing quads that are never going to be landed, then yes it will be another Erokhov situation forcing elements that aren't there. But maybe he can manage to stabilize his quads, they certainly know more than us watching the practice sessions every day. (certainly not now)

Like i said up until last season they were doing great, the training is there, you can see it with the speed, stamina, those fast and centered spins, the triple jumps are all there, the technique needed some refinement for sure but it's still good. It's just think the work on the quads is still very much in progress, maybe it will get better over time, for now it looked a bit forced.

I also don't think all Russian coaches are doing it wrong, you can still see with Semenenko, Mishin's work with the quads is very effective, Davydenko is doing well with Mozalev so far as well as Daineko with Gumennik. Danielian's quad salchow also is beautiful now, while last season it was always unstable. But again they just need to stick with the skaters longer, and don't trash it all if the medals don't come in the first season.
 

jenaj

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 17, 2003
Country
United-States
Are the US men in a systematic program? Most likely not, so the comparison doesn't stand IMO.

I don't know enough about Japan, Korea and China programs wether they are systematic or not. I.e. copied to a large extent from the Russian program. AFAIK, Russia is the only society with these specialised sports schools for children and youth, in all categories of sport.

"Systematic" can have both a good and a bad meaning, depending on its outlay and implementation.

Or maybe it has nothing to do with "systematic" programs. In fact, if "systematic" training were so effective, the Russian men would be more competitive. There are a lot of factors involved, including innate talent and individual motivation. One country's domination in the sport will not last forever, as history has shown.
 

icetug

Medalist
Joined
Apr 23, 2017
Also, this "It`s much easier to jump with a small body" BS is truly annoying.

It is, isn't it? Young You is 165 cm and can jump 3A while Miki Ando is 162 cm and could jump 4S. I really don't understand why Russian coaches chose only 150-155 cm girls to teach what Russians call 'ultra-c elements' :dev3:

If it is so, why there are not tons of "small body skaters" with the big jumps? Why it is so rare?

I don't know... Lady skaters of Carolina Kostner or Kaetlyn Osmond's height are so rare... So ladies in majority are of 'small body'... Midori Ito was famous of her powerful jumps and she's just 145cm.
 
Top