Phil Hersh on the season so far

[Mathman]

Can we also talk about Kim Yuna? Yes because she received some huge scores even when she was intentionally watering down her technical contents. At Worlds 2013 she received 148 points in the free with a 6 triples program.

I understand your point, but I think that the example you chose doesn't really support it. This Les Miz performance was one of the most complete and satisfying free skates of all time. Her TES score was so high because of the quality of her jumps. Yuna got huge (and well-deserved) GOEs on every jump element except the 2A combination. The PCS were quite appropriate for this enchanting performance. If she had skated like this at the Olympics she would have won. (My opinion -- YMMD.)

(just a reminder to those who criticizes Evgenia's scores with programs much more difficult)

I liked this statistic from the Hersh article:

The two-time defending world champion from Russia has not fallen in her last seven competitions (13 programs). That covers 268 jump attempts.

...since the end of compulsory figures in 1990, no woman has been as overwhelming an Olympic gold-medal favorite as Medvedeva, 17, who headlines the women’s field at Rostelecom.

 

[yyyskate]

Phill think that Team USA may got no medal at all in 2018 OG. And some fans argue about the team event medal.
I think Team China has a fair chance to fight with Team USA for a team event medal.
So Phill's perspective maybe possible.

 

[4everchan]

As an italian, i agree that Kostner's overscoring must go, but honestly it's funny that people are realizing this now, because it was a thing for ages.

At Worlds 2013 she took the bronze with a fall in the short program and a popped jump and one fall in the free skate when others skated clean or cleanish programs.

At Worlds 2014 it was even worse, since Kostner's FS was a complete disaster but still enough to beat two clean programs from Pogorilaya.

I can go on...

But don't conveniently forget that Patrick Chan received the same treatment for years.

Can we also talk about Kim Yuna? Yes because she received some huge scores even when she was intentionally watering down her technical contents. At Worlds 2013 she received 148 points in the free with a 6 triples program. (just a reminder to those who criticizes Evgenia's scores with programs much more difficult)

i disagree.

1) Patrick Chan is a much better skater than Caro.... so he at least deserves his PCS
2) Patrick has had "mishaps" in some of his programs but always had enough content in TES to deserve his medals/titles
3) Patrick, from 2011-up to Sochi was quite regular and steady in his performances unlike Caro who has been known to be all over the place. Even prior to his first world title, he had two silvers
4) Finally, Patrick at least back then, was presenting 3 quads over the course of two programs...which put him ahead of the pack in content... yeah... a belly flop on a 2A may look silly but point wise it didn't harm him.... Caro isn't doing the lutz nor 3-3 which are staples in ladies skating....

So, I agree that her scoring is generous but to compare it with Patrick is ridiculous.

 

[Violet Bliss]

Patrick's "not a real coach" got trashed regularly but Mishin is still God, the ultimate jump coach. Some coaches get only the glory and some only the blame.

 

[Purv]

Sorry for having a first post looking like that, but I just registered to post it. I ve been here for a while..Why one should think Yuna's FS from 2013 was overscored and at the same time not thinking that Medviedeva is not oversocred at all, especially her last 9/11 FD on Worlds getting over 150 points? Leave that girl alone, if she got 130 for Miserable that year you would have beeen satisfied? anyway, that program is a legend, it is that important?

 

[MaiKatze]

I'm not american, but I'm confused by this very pessimistic view of the chances of U.S. skaters. Usually one would think there would be more hype. Ok, Davis/White are gone, but what about the Shibutanis and especially Nathan Chen who has beaten the current Olympic Champion last season? Surely the author cannot dismiss Nathan Chen after an unimportant Senior B in early September?

 

[yyyskate]

I'm not american, but I'm confused by this very pessimistic view of the chances of U.S. skaters. Usually one would think there would be more hype. Ok, Davis/White are gone, but what about the Shibutanis and especially Nathan Chen who has beaten the current Olympic Champion last season? Surely the author cannot dismiss Nathan Chen after an unimportant Senior B in early September?

If Nathan Chen beat Javi at Japan Open, Phill may say something different... (just my gut feeling)

Also, Phill is a reputable long-time OG figure skating reporter not merely an advocator for US media/skaters.

But personally, I do think US skaters need some hyper. Come on where are those reporters and media friends....

 

[MaiKatze]

If Nathan Chen beat Javi at Japan Open, Phill may say something different... (just my gut feeling)

But it's not like Javier produced scores this season that make the other skaters shake in their boots. Yet.

 

[ice coverage]

Some counterpoints:

- I didn't think Chen was "unremarkable". With the quad loop, he's the only skater in the men's field to have landed all non-axel quad jumps. He's also been improving his artistry in both the short and long, as well as the consistency on his 3A. ...

I'm not american, but I'm confused by this very pessimistic view of the chances of U.S. skaters. Usually one would think there would be more hype. Ok, Davis/White are gone, but what about the Shibutanis and especially Nathan Chen who has beaten the current Olympic Champion last season? Surely the author cannot dismiss Nathan Chen after an unimportant Senior B in early September?

Phil's words about Nathan are being taken out of context.

Excerpts from this article (emphases added):

.... Chen established himself among the world's top skaters when he topped Hanyu in the free skate at last season's Grand Prix Final (Hanyu won the event for a record fourth straight time) and then beat Hanyu for the Four Continents Championship title on the 2018 Olympic rink in South Korea. Hanyu had the last (and definitive) word at the World Championships, rebounding from a subpar short program with a brilliant free skate to win worlds for the second time, while Chen stumbled to sixth overall. ...

But for trying and cleanly landing his first quadruple loop in competition (and then successfully doing another three weeks later), Chen was unremarkable (by the standard he set last season) in both his Challenger Series win (U.S. International) and his second (by 11 points) to two-time world champion Javier Fernandez of Spain in the Japan Open. But he still is light years ahead of every other U.S. man.​

Phil made note of Nathan's impressive results from last season.

And Phil made note that Nathan's quad loop is remarkable.
["But" being a synonym here for "except."]

The second passage that I have quoted above is from the section in which Phil discusses which U.S. men will make the U.S. Olympic team.
What Phil finds unremarkable are Nathan's results (aside from the quad loop) so far this season -- in comparison to the standard that Nathan set last season.
"But he still is light years ahead of every other U.S. man."

 

[bevybean]

5) severe comments about Gabby who unlike most others is at her first event of the year... and is coming back from abdominal surgery.... I have more hopes than he does about her... her programs are already to a good level and jumps is her strength and they will be back... she still has a few months.

I'm not sure anyone realizes how much abdominal surgery can affect someone. I don't remember if they said what Daleman had surgery for, but even laparoscopic can be a difficult recovery depending on what the issue was. We're talking about messing with core muscles! I had a small tear in one abdominal muscle and it hurt if I walked too much in one day. I know as an athlete Daleman is likely to have a faster recovery, but still! Hard for me to walk compared to doing triple jumps!

IMO Daleman and Max Aaron (who had hernia surgery last year) are amazing!!

 

[MaiKatze]

I've read the article.

9. And don’t be surprised if the U.S. wins no figure skating medal at this Olympics, a shutout that has not happened since World War II. Dance clearly is the best shot, but you can give two of the medals to Virtue-Moir (CAN) and Papadakis-Cizeron (FRA) right now, and that leaves a lot of good teams fighting for one medal.

I don't think Dance is the 'best shot' or at least not the only shot. And for me personally this article is painting a gloomy picture. Yes, it could happen that there will be no medal. But I think the US has good chances for a Team medal and Nathan Chen is a Gold medal threat in my opinion.

 

[Mango]

Phil may just be setting up a gloomy outlook to stir up sympathy & support for team USA. Or he's a pessimistic realist.

 

[icedinn]

i disagree.

1) Patrick Chan is a much better skater than Caro.... so he at least deserves his PCS
2) Patrick has had "mishaps" in some of his programs but always had enough content in TES to deserve his medals/titles
3) Patrick, from 2011-up to Sochi was quite regular and steady in his performances unlike Caro who has been known to be all over the place. Even prior to his first world title, he had two silvers
4) Finally, Patrick at least back then, was presenting 3 quads over the course of two programs...which put him ahead of the pack in content... yeah... a belly flop on a 2A may look silly but point wise it didn't harm him.... Caro isn't doing the lutz nor 3-3 which are staples in ladies skating....

So, I agree that her scoring is generous but to compare it with Patrick is ridiculous.

Chan isn't a better skater than Carolina. He probably wishes he was though.

 

[4everchan]

Chan isn't a better skater than Carolina. He probably wishes he was though.

you may disagree with my statement but assigning thoughts to him personally is unfair and uncool...

 

[sheetz]

Some counterpoints:

- I didn't think Chen was "unremarkable". With the quad loop, he's the only skater in the men's field to have landed all non-axel quad jumps. He's also been improving his artistry in both the short and long, as well as the consistency on his 3A.

Phil also overlooked the fact that at Japan Open Nathan didn't just attempt 5 quads; he attempted 5 *different* quads. That's just a whole other level of difficulty than what he did last season. If Nathan's sole concern was about winning he could have simply repeated 4Z and 4F.

 

[Violet Bliss]

Phil also overlooked the fact that at Japan Open Nathan didn't just attempt 5 quads; he attempted 5 *different* quads. That's just a whole other level of difficulty than what he did last season. If Nathan's sole concern was about winning he could have simply repeated 4Z and 4F.

True.

Elite skaters take part in the pre GP minor events for experimental reasons, so it's pointless to use the results to project onto the end of season possibilities.

 

[matcha]

At Worlds 2014 it was even worse, since Kostner's FS was a complete disaster but still enough to beat two clean programs from Pogorilaya.

This still hurts lmao

 

[Mathman]

I'm not american, but I'm confused by this very pessimistic view of the chances of U.S. skaters. Usually one would think there would be more hype.

This columnist takes pride in treating figure skaters like any other athletes. He goes out of his way not to pamper them or to give praise and encouragement that he thinks is unearned.

That said, he loves the sport and is one of the few U.S. writers who gives it any kind of coverage at all :yes:

["But" being a synonym here for "except."]

 

[Ender]

I remember that program and NO, it wasn't a 148 points worthy program, sorry. The commentators were totally with Kim because she was the champion, she won everything and she is not russian (let's be realistic even on that...), so of course they were with her.

Chan won some medals with a similar tech content gap as Kostner in these two competitions (and BTW she didn't won Finlandia or Lombardia trophy!!!)

Yuna Kim's FS from worlds 2011: 4 triples -> bv. 51.70 -> 61.72 TES

Carolina Kostner's FS from Finlandia Trophy 2017 -> 4 triples -> bv. 46.64 -> 53.95 TES.

So yes the overscoring hasn't changed much from the past.

Sorry to bring back the past but I have just realized Kim only won her big titles in North America and never won big titles in Europe... clearly North American was good for her. Too bad she left Toronto.

 

[mrrice]

Chan isn't a better skater than Carolina. He probably wishes he was though.

Well, if you were to look at their international records, I'd have to disagree. Look, I love Carolina but, to say that she comes from a weaker Fed than Patrick, would be an understatement. Patrick has 3 World Titles, 3 4CC Titles, 2 Olympic Silver Medals and 9 National Titles.....To say that he "wishes" he were as good as Carolina......It's just sad.

Why not appreciate the fact that they are both Hall Of Fame worthy skaters and leave it at that.