2017 GPF Ladies SP

[Yatagarasu]

I think for Japanese team selection, whoever places highest at the GPF automatically gets an entry into the world / OG team (unsure if that also applies to 4CC).

The Nats Champion goes for sure, then there's a list of criteria, and Satoko is now ahead of everyone else but Wakaba. If she places higher than Wakaba here, and if we're to judge by this SP, she will, then she's a safe bet. Even if she doesn't, she just needs to get on the podium, and she'll go.

The thing about Dai and Oda/Kozuka? Dai went to the Olympics, when he shouldn't have, he was only 5th at the Nats. Oda? Well, he never got his chance, now did he, as he doesn't skate any longer. Kozuka was injured too and then retired. That's the issue of getting people to go with the reasoning of "let them have their moment". It always comes at the expense of someone else's moment.

 

[largeman]

Anyone who pays a bit of attention to the news and discussions about the Japanese ladies would know how hard Satoko trains and how much effort she has been putting into fixing her jumps. She has caused herself serious injuries due to her commitment to fixing her jumps. Discrediting her hard work and calling her a cheater is just cruel.

But despite her efforts, her jumps here are as bad as ever. But I've accepted the fact that our current system does not penalize prerotation unless it's a toe axel (which no one ever does), so fine, prerotate as much as you want, I don't care anymore. But the landings here really should have been called < and they were not, which I think was unfair. I have no anger or ill will towards Satoko though. I enjoy her program very much. I just find the judging egregious.

 

[birdseye]

I don't comment often on these threads, but there seems to be a lot of mis information regarding jump technique. How many of the people calling pre-rotation cheating are actual former skaters??? I'd guess none.

As a former skater I can tell you that pre-rotation is how ALL JUMPS WORK!!! Yes, even the lutz and axel to a lesser extent. Pre-rotation is efficient for jumping, it's not cheating, it's just how potential energy is converted into kinetic energy in order to spur rotation; this is the physics of a jump.

If you watch the pattern on the ice of a loop jump or salchow you will see a curve with a check at the end. That check is the so called pre-rotation. For toe loops, lutz and flips there will be a back outside(or inside) edge approaching the toepick mark and most toe pick marks will have some indication of on-ice pre-rotation.

There is a difference between what I have described above and a toe-axel, which is what usually gets the most attention in terms of a cheated takeoff. A toe axel occurs when during the draw of the back outside edge the weight transfers completely to the toepick where the momentum stops and the skater forced to essentially rotate on the toepick essentially step into an axel like jump.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

Are we really going to have a repeat of the same "conversation" -- aka the two same posters frothing at the mouth over how much they hate Satoko for pages on end -- in literally every competition she skates in?

Pretty sure that yes, as long as Satoko takes part in a competition and the technical panel doesn't call some obvious underrotations with the effect that it influences the standings and robs other ladies of higher placements and even medals, yes, you will always have people being angry about it and say that.

lol. I actually wish the ISU made it easy to search *every* competition a tech caller or judge has been a part of (i.e. hyperlink to a profile on the panel of judges tabs in the result page) so we could fine out who is generous and who isn't.

A lot of technical specialists aren't included, but you can find some here: http://www.rinkresults.com/ (Mostly it includes judges)

As a former skater I can tell you that pre-rotation is how ALL JUMPS WORK!!! Yes, even the lutz and axel to a lesser extent. Pre-rotation is efficient for jumping, it's not cheating, it's just how potential energy is converted into kinetic energy in order to spur rotation; this is the physics of a jump.

Pretty sure everyone knows pre-rotation is part of every jump. But the point is it is only "okay" up until a certain degree. Take an extreme example - what if someone does a double, but rotates a full revolution with the blade on the ice before even really taking off? Is that still okay for you?

 

[Shayuki]

I don't comment often on these threads, but there seems to be a lot of mis information regarding jump technique. How many of the people calling pre-rotation cheating are actual former skaters??? I'd guess none.

As a former skater I can tell you that pre-rotation is how ALL JUMPS WORK!!! Yes, even the lutz and axel to a lesser extent. Pre-rotation is efficient for jumping, it's not cheating, it's just how potential energy is converted into kinetic energy in order to spur rotation; this is the physics of a jump.

If you watch the pattern on the ice of a loop jump or salchow you will see a curve with a check at the end. That check is the so called pre-rotation. For toe loops, lutz and flips there will be a back outside(or inside) edge approaching the toepick mark and most toe pick marks will have some indication of on-ice pre-rotation.

Some pre-rotation? Yes, that's normal.

More than 180 degrees? That's not allowed.

Really seems like you're seeking to just flail around your skating experience without really realizing what we even have been talking about.

 

[anyanka]

The Nats Champion goes for sure, then there's a list of criteria, and Satoko is now ahead of everyone else but Wakaba. If she places higher than Wakaba here, and if we're to judge by this SP, she will, then she's a safe bet. Even if she doesn't, she just needs to get on the podium, and she'll go.

The thing about Dai and Oda/Kozuka? Dai went to the Olympics, when he shouldn't have, he was only 5th at the Nats. Oda? Well, he never got his chance, now did he, as he doesn't skate any longer. Kozuka was injured too and then retired. That's the issue of getting people to go with the reasoning of "let them have their moment". It always comes at the expense of someone else's moment.

Thanks for the clarification! As for Oda, he did go to Vancouver in 2010 and had the infamous shoelace incident, dropping from 4th to 7th. Alas, he would have been brilliant in Sochi had he skated better, he was on fire in 2013/14 otherwise and actually medaled at GPF.

You're right about Dai going to Sochi despite being 5th, it was Kozuka who got screwed, he won bronze (ahead of Oda, 4th) but he was also in Vancouver.

The Dai / Oda moment I referred to was actually for the Torino games in 2006. Here's the synopsis: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005–06_Japan_Figure_Skating_Championships. Excerpt:

"Because of an error in the scoring system software, Nobunari Oda was originally declared the winner of the men's event, with Daisuke Takahashi placing second. Oda had done four combination jumps instead of the allowed three, but the software had counted the fourth combination jump. When the error was discovered and fixed, their placements switched, with Takahashi winning the event and being sent to the Olympics. Oda was sent to World Championships. Japan had only one entry to the Olympics and to the World Championships in the men's event."

The 2014 choice to put Dai on was DEFINITELY political, as much as I love his skating.

 

[largeman]

Well, it's true I can't skate... As a spectator, I know you can take off on a lutz like this or you can take off like this, or somewhere in the middle like most female skaters do.

I think the technique of the former is far superior, and I think out of the same 3 revolutions, turning on your toepick on the ice for one revolution in total and rotating in the air for only two revolutions is easier than spending only 90 degrees on the ice in total and the other 2.75 revolutions in the air.

 

[GGFan]

I don't comment often on these threads, but there seems to be a lot of mis information regarding jump technique. How many of the people calling pre-rotation cheating are actual former skaters??? I'd guess none.

As a former skater I can tell you that pre-rotation is how ALL JUMPS WORK!!! Yes, even the lutz and axel to a lesser extent. Pre-rotation is efficient for jumping, it's not cheating, it's just how potential energy is converted into kinetic energy in order to spur rotation; this is the physics of a jump.

If you watch the pattern on the ice of a loop jump or salchow you will see a curve with a check at the end. That check is the so called pre-rotation. For toe loops, lutz and flips there will be a back outside(or inside) edge approaching the toepick mark and most toe pick marks will have some indication of on-ice pre-rotation.

I want to add that we should be very careful when we talk about fairness. Whenever you're dealing with a system there are the rules, the interpretation of the rules, and the precedent that is set. The other side of the PR rule is that it has never been interpreted against her or other skaters in the way fans want it applied now. Skaters living under a system of rules have the right to know what to expect ahead of time so they can change their behavior accordingly. If suddenly Satoko gets dinged on all her jumps for PR that wold actually be unfair.

I think this is an issue that would have to be dealt with at the end of the season. There's also the slomo issue when it comes to PR.

 

[schizoanalyst]

Well, it's true I can't skate... As a spectator, I know you can take off on a lutz like this or you can take off like this, or somewhere in the middle like most female skaters do.

I think the technique of the former is far superior, and I think out of the same 3 revolutions, turning on your toepick on the ice for one revolution in total and rotating in the air for only two revolutions is easier than spending only 90 degrees on the ice in total and the other 2.75 revolutions in the air.

That Satoko lutz gif is particularly egregious. She's leaving the ice forward which is a "cheated take-off" under the ISU rules - which can require a downgrade. However, I want to defend the callers just a bit, the rulebook states the forward takeoff must be "clear" and you cannot use slow-mo to determine this. I will confess this could be difficult in real time to come to the "clear" (which I take to mean indisputable) conclusion without slow-mo.

 

[largeman]

That Satoko lutz gif is particularly egregious. She's leaving the ice forward which is a "cheated take-off" under the ISU rules - i.e. a downgrade. However, I want to defend the callers just a bit, the rulebook states the forward takeoff must be "clear" and you cannot use slow-mo to determine this. I will confess this could be difficult in real time to come to the "clear" (which I take to mean indisputable) conclusion without slow-mo.

Again, I am only looking at the landing now, and I think the landing is over 90 degrees short and hence should be a <.

 

[cell]

The (Sotkova) program was dated and dull and - can't she DO any other kind of jump, arm-wise??

She skated to classical music, what kind of program are people expecting?

 

[SimplyLex]

That Satoko lutz gif is particularly egregious. She's leaving the ice forward which is a "cheated take-off" under the ISU rules - which can require a downgrade. However, I want to defend the callers just a bit, the rulebook states the forward takeoff must be "clear" and you cannot use slow-mo to determine this. I will confess this could be difficult in real time to come to the "clear" (which I take to mean indisputable) conclusion without slow-mo.

Why the stupid rule of no slow-mo again? So that feds' or judges' favorites could get away with it or is there a deeper logic there?

Both jumps in that combo should be <<
She should actually be in the last place going into free.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

:scratch:

 

[jenaj]

Frank Carroll has also said that all jumps involve some pre-rotation and that the harder the jump, the more pre-rotation there is. Maybe it isn't penalized in IJS because it is difficult to quantify how much is too much. Personally, I think there is already too much nitpicking with UR calls. It's one of the things that is ruining the enjoyment of the sport. I'm not saying the tech score shouldn't take into account URs and edge calls, just that jumps that are borderline should be given the benefit of the doubt. It's like the tie goes to the runner in baseball. I would also like to see more weight given to the components side of the score, especially the P/E and I. I would eliminate factoring for the ladies and factor up for the men. The men have already exceeded the maximum PCS score on the technical side, which devalues PCS. I think Alina is close to doing so for the ladies, too, if she hasn't already. Skating is, and always has been, sport and art, and that is a good thing.

 

[GGFan]

I don’t agree. Fair would have been calling her jumps UR back in 2015. I think Satokos advantage should be her interpretation and to a lesser extent even performance but seeing Satoko’s jumps score a total of 21.44 vs Wakaba getting a 22.06 suggests we aren’t really in a realm where fairness is at the forefront...at least for her competitors.

I made this in 2015 and IMO the fair call would be 3z(e)-2t. She didn’t even rotated the the 2t fully but got credited for a full 3z-3t

I'm just making a very specific fairness based argument. This is not about her jumps in general. Rather, if there's a rule on the books (any rule) and it is never enforced but then it is suddenly enforced against one individual that is generally seen as unfair. If the ISU want to move in the direction of penalizing PR I think they have to make an announcement and give folks notice.

Again, I am just mentioning this because I keep seeing the word fairness brought up over and over. Be careful with that word.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

In general, Japan seems to have a massive dislike for "strong" skating for ladies and is more about the cutesy princessy feel.

Higuchi is a power skater so it's obvious why she gets mistreated by the fed.

I dont think you can call it dislike or mistreading. Its just what some culture prefer as more aestetic thing. Midori Ito was speaking about that...

 

[largeman]

I'm just making a very specific fairness based argument. This is not about her jumps in general. Rather, if there's a rule on the books (any rule) and it is never enforced but then it is suddenly enforced against one individual that is generally seen as unfair. If the ISU want to move in the direction of penalizing PR I think they have to make an announcement and give folks notice.

Again, I am just mentioning this because I keep seeing the word fairness brought up over and over. Be careful with that word.

What you are saying makes total sense to me.

I consider the judging "unfair" only because the over 90-degree underrotations in the landings of Satoko's 3Lz and 3T didn't get called. (Of course, there's the question of whether these jumps deserved +GOE, but let's leave that aside along with the scrutiny on prerotation.)

 

[schizoanalyst]

Why the stupid rule of no slow-mo again? So that feds' or judges' favorites could get away with it or is there a deeper logic there?

Around the early time of IJS slow-motion of jump take-off was disallowed because the caller was not going to be allowed to use slow-motion to check on the lutz/flip takeoff edge and it had to be judged in real-time (this is no longer true, slow-mo can be used for edge calls now). Nobody probably wanted it looked at too closely given that edge judging were not a big part of 6.0. From here it was just carried over even after they started scrutinizing edges with slow-mo. I don't really know why but just thought I'd provide some historical context.

My cynical guess, enough Feds thought tougher edge calls would benefit their skaters so they pushed to change it and not enough feds think tougher pre-rotation calls would.

 

[Zhenya is DIVINE]

Masha is just so gorgeous and heavenly. It is a pleasure to watch her and I hope she skates long enough to finally get the PCS she deserves!

I don't know why Alina's PCS are so high. It's baffling and unfair, really. This is her first year in seniors. Zhenya didn't get this high of PCS her first year, and IMO she had better presentation than Alina. Zagitova is getting practically the same PCS as Miyahara. BLASPHEMY! I think Higuchi should have higher PCS than Alina as well.

I guess I will have to go back further to read any discussion that does not revolve around Satoko and her jumping issues. Talk about beating a dead horse. *yawn*

 

[Alex D]

I came to this thread to expect people to bash on Kaetlyn or Alina and was surprised to find it evolve into a giant debate about Satoko ...

Haha me too!

I came here to say something nice about Kaety, since she is always the target and now I want to say something nice about Sotoko.

People should really not be so harsh to skaters, it´s the judges that give the scores and if they feel she is doing something wrong, then they will tell her that. No need to bash her and call her a cheater. She is just a nice girl from Japan, who puts a lot into her programs. No need to be so rude.