2017-18 State of U.S. Men's Figure Skating

[Alifyre]

I realize that after the fact. Mainly because Camden is competing as a junior. He pretty much looks good to win the junior men title though.

Oh I would quite love to see junior champ Camden, I find his skating to be wonderful to watch! Keeping my fingers crossed for him.

 

[Mrs. P]

Oh I would quite love to see junior champ Camden, I find his skating to be wonderful to watch! Keeping my fingers crossed for him.

Yes, he's been great this season! I've added him to my summary.

 

[karne]

Why does he need clean 2 quad SP and 3 quad FS when the other guys aren´t getting a single clean quad in either program?

Hi. Please go watch Max again as he is landing two quads in the short and three in the long. Thanks.

 

[Mrs. P]

Hey Mrs. P, great analysis of US men's Olympic Team contenders! Can you possibly do one for US ladies too, pretty please?

You're so kind. I have so little investment in U.S. ladies that it's unlikely I would be able to do a good analysis.

(Mr. P: You haven't said much about any U.S. lady. Me: Well...)

 

[TontoK]

Yes, I’m impressed!

Tonto, to be clear, I didn’t think you were enjoying the season because of injuries, but rather, because (I think) you prefer athletic skaters - ie, Citius Altius Fortius. I sort of see the injuries as a consequence of that push. I don’t think you mentioned strategy in your last post (or if you did I overlooked it) but it didn’t occur to me.

I’m curious as to what artistic boundaries you see being pushed.

You quoted Mrs P in your response - but I think you were replying to me. My apologies if this is not correct, but I will reply assuming I've gotten it right.

** Edit, I just saw that you referenced me in your post, so I feel not so intrusive in responding **

Yes, I prefer the more athletic men. It's just my preference. Unless a skater is doing something completely groundbreaking - like John Curry or Toller Cranston - I generally prefer the athletic to the more artistic men. Like I said, just personal preference.

In ladies and pairs (what little I watch modern pairs skating), I prefer elegance. In dance, I like the more athletic teams. So, I admit to inconsistency.

In terms of artistic boundaries - I think Jason Brown's long program is the single best program, jumps aside, I have seen in years, maybe decades. It is glorious. I say this as someone who was a huge Jason fan, now not so much. But it is impossible to deny. That LP is a masterpiece. If his team had managed his technical progress better, and if his SP didn't grate on my nerves so much, I would be an uber this season.

***Edit again. There is one skater who is having a hard time with his jumps right now - definitely not at the top of the game technically - that I really enjoy and have high hopes for. That is junior skater Andrew Torgeshev. He skates with flair and a bit of old-school arrogant Soviet swagger, and I'm a sucker for that. ***

 

[TontoK]

You're so kind. I have so little investment in U.S. ladies that it's unlikely I would be able to do a good analysis.

(Mr. P: You haven't said much about any U.S. lady. Me: Well...)

LOL. Have I told you lately how much I enjoy your wit, as well as your excellent analytical work?

 

[Seren]

If Jason doesn't make the Olympic Team this year I hope he keeps his FS next year. It's divine, and I want to see him skate it to it's potential.

 

[ask]

Hi. Please go watch Max again as he is landing two quads in the short and three in the long. Thanks.

I know Max can land a couple of clean quads. The problem is his PCS aren't the same level. He can't beat Nathan with the current set up. We're comparing the ones with similar PCS but deficient TES.

 

[Mrs. P]

LOL. Have I told you lately how much I enjoy your wit, as well as your excellent analytical work?

Aw, that's really nice.

 

[mrrice]

I know Max can land a couple of clean quads. The problem is his PCS aren't the same level. He can't beat Nathan with the current set up. We're comparing the ones with similar PCS but deficient TES.

He might not beat Nathan but, he could certainly beat Jason or Adam if he goes clean. Max's biggest chance is to beat both Jason and Adam in the SP and hold them off in the LP with a spectacular performance. At this point neither Jason or Adam have quads in the SP and if Max were to land two clean quads in his SP, that will distance him from all the skaters except Nathan. If Nathan skates his SP the way he did at the final, he's the best skater in world let alone the US. I think the rest of the field is shooting for the podium, not the championship.

 

[Tavi...]

He might not beat Nathan but, he could certainly beat Jason or Adam if he goes clean. Max's biggest chance is to beat both Jason and Adam in the SP and hold them off in the LP with a spectacular performance. At this point neither Jason or Adam have quads in the SP and if Max were to land two clean quads in his SP, that will distance him from all the skaters except Nathan. If Nathan skates his SP the way he did at the final, he's the best skater in world let alone the US. I think the rest of the field is shooting for the podium, not the championship.

Mrrice, quads aren’t anything more than point getters. There are other ways to gain points.

At the US Classic in September, Max had two quads in his SP and scored 86.06. Jason and Adam have both scored higher than that this season without quads (Adam 89+ at Skate America and Jason 90+ at Skate Canada and 89+ at the GPF).

Max can definitely beat Jason or Adam if he skates well and they skate poorly. But his quads aren’t a guarantee of anything.

 

[mrrice]

Mrrice, quads aren’t anything more than point getters. There are other ways to gain points.

At the US Classic in September, Max had two quads in his SP and scored 86.06. Jason and Adam have both scored higher than that this season without quads (Adam 89+ at Skate America and Jason 90+ at Skate Canada and 89+ at the GPF).

Max can definitely beat Jason or Adam if he skates well and they skate poorly. But his quads aren’t a guarantee of anything.

True. However, in Max's case, they're his only hope. Seriously, remember 2016? Max won the SP and had a 3 point lead going into the free. If Max had skated a perfect LP I think he might have won but, Adam's component score was so big that even a perfect Max may not have been enough. Max and Vincent took themselves off the committee list when they finished out of the medals in France and missed the GPF. The committee has no choice but go with those 3 skaters should Max or Vincent edge one of them out in San Jose. If Max or Vincent were to win, or even get the Silver, I think they should go to Korea.

 

[Mrs. P]

True. However, in Max's case, they're his only hope. Seriously, remember 2016? Max won the SP and had a 3 point lead going into the free. If Max had skated a perfect LP I think he might have won but, Adam's component score was so big that even a perfect Max may not have been enough.

As I said in my analysis, Max needs to boost his GOE on those quads.

In the SP at the U.S. Classic for example, he had 2 quads, but only scored 48+ (48.41) TES. That is far too low for that kind of jump content.
Jason has scored nearly many points with a no-quad program, at Worlds (48) last season.

Here is Max's jumps: 4S-3T (15.40), 4T (7.26) and 3A (11.15)
Jason's jumps from worlds: 3A (10.50), 3F-3T (10.80) and 3Z (7.90)

Max has the edge on jumps, but only by 4.61 points.
Jason's edge on Max in steps and spins was 4.2 points.

Now granted Jason's Worlds free skate was at the end of the season and this program was at the start of this season, so it's not a perfect comparison, but it affirms my belief that Max leaves points on the table in +GOE especially doing quads and 3As which have favorable scale of values (he can get up to 9 GOE on jumps vs. Jason, who can get a max GOE of 7.2 points)

Also, the other thing with Max is leaving out a triple flip. I suppose with getting a (e) he's money ahead with a 2A, but it gives him less flexibility as far as program structure.

 

[mrrice]

As I said in my analysis, Max needs to boost his GOE on those quads.

In the SP at the U.S. Classic for example, he had 2 quads, but only scored 48+ (48.41) TES. That is far too low for that kind of jump content.
Jason has scored nearly many points with a no-quad program, at Worlds (48) last season.

Here is Max's jumps: 4S-3T (15.40), 4T (7.26) and 3A (11.15)
Jason's jumps from worlds: 3A (10.50), 3F-3T (10.80) and 3Z (7.90)

Max has the edge on jumps, but only by 4.61 points.
Jason's edge on Max in steps and spins was 4.2 points.

Now granted Jason's Worlds free skate was at the end of the season and this program was at the start of this season, so it's not a perfect comparison, but it affirms my belief that Max leaves points on the table in +GOE especially doing quads and 3As which have favorable scale of values (he can get up to 9 GOE on jumps vs. Jason, who can get a max GOE of 7.2 points)

Also, the other thing with Max is leaving out a triple flip. I suppose with getting a (e) he's money ahead with a 2A, but it gives him less flexibility as far as program structure.

My biggest problem with Max has been, and continues to be, his lack of flexibility and difficulty in his spins because they are fixable. This is an area where most of the top Men can beat him easily. Nathan, Adam, Jason, and Tim Dolensky garner so many points off of their spins and that's an area where Max, IMO, has stalled.

 

[Mrs. P]

My biggest problem with Max has been, and continues to be, his lack of flexibility and difficulty in his spins. This is an area where most of the top Men can beat him easily. Nathan, Adam, Jason, and Tim Dolensky garner so many points off of their spins and that's an area where Max, IMO, has stalled.

Sure Max can improve in spins, but I feel the higher priority needs to be the jumps. For someone who is a "jumper" he makes a lot a lot of small errors that cost valuable +GOE.

Again, he did a 3 quad free skate at Cup of China and scored 96 TES. For contrast, Yuzuru Hanyu scored 118 TES with a 3-quad program in 2015 NHK Trophy FS, you know the one that broke major records.

Here's what Hanyu got on +GOE in his quads:
4S: 2.86
4T: 2.57
4T-3T: 1.71

Compared to Max:
4T-2T: 0.29
4S: 1.00
4T: -0.34.

That's a lot of +GOE points he's leaving on the table!

Now I'm not saying that Max needs to get Yuzu-level GOE. But at the very least, he shouldn't be getting -GOE (even if slight) and he should be at least getting +1.00 GOE at minimum if not more.

 

[mrrice]

Sure Max can improve in spins, but I feel the higher priority needs to be the jumps. For someone who is a "jumper" he makes a lot a lot of small errors that cost valuable +GOE.

Again, he did a 3 quad free skate at Cup of China and scored 96 TES. For contrast, Yuzuru Hanyu scored 118 TES with a 3-quad program in 2015 NHK Trophy FS, you know the one that broke major records.

Here's what Hanyu got on +GOE in his quads:
4S: 2.86
4T: 2.57
4T-3T: 1.71

Compared to Max:
4T-2T: 0.29
4S: 1.00
4T: -0.34.

That's a lot of +GOE points he's leaving on the table!

Now I'm not saying that Max needs to get Yuzu-level GOE. But at the very least, he shouldn't be getting -GOE (even if slight) and he should be at least getting +1.00 GOE at minimum if not more.

It truly baffles me that he still has problems in that area. Seriously, he's been landing quads since he won his Championship in 2013. I know he's devoted to Tom but, I wish they'd sent to him Mishin, even if it were just for Summer Camp.

 

[TontoK]

True. However, in Max's case, they're his only hope. Seriously, remember 2016? Max won the SP and had a 3 point lead going into the free. If Max had skated a perfect LP I think he might have won but, Adam's component score was so big that even a perfect Max may not have been enough. Max and Vincent took themselves off the committee list when they finished out of the medals in France and missed the GPF. The committee has no choice but go with those 3 skaters should Max or Vincent edge one of them out in San Jose. If Max or Vincent were to win, or even get the Silver, I think they should go to Korea.

I generally don't get off on adjudicating old championships, but Adam's huge PCS didn't win him that championship. It was his inflated TES - not even the 4Z but the inflated GOE on almost every element. I thought at the time, and still do, that it is the most obvious incident of US National judges pumping up the desired winner.

For arguments sake - granting Nathan the gold - the 2/3 finishers should go to the Olympics, whether Jason or Adam are included in that group or not. There are just not enough great competitions to warrant a BoW team member.

 

[TontoK]

My biggest problem with Max has been, and continues to be, his lack of flexibility and difficulty in his spins because they are fixable. This is an area where most of the top Men can beat him easily. Nathan, Adam, Jason, and Tim Dolensky garner so many points off of their spins and that's an area where Max, IMO, has stalled.

This is a fair criticism. And this comes from a Max fan.

 

[andromache]

It truly baffles me that he still has problems in that area. Seriously, he's been landing quads since he won his Championship in 2013. I know he's devoted to Tom but, I wish they'd sent to him Mishin, even if it were just for Summer Camp.

Max would've benefited from leaving Tom as soon as he didn't make the Olympic team in 2014. Or, at the latest, his 2015 pewter. If something isn't working, you don't keep doing the same thing over and over again in the hope that it will finally click. Max has had the quad for years, but he's never nailed the gorgeous landings (of course he's had some in his performances, but not consistently). And the GOE issue isn't just on his quads - it's on the triples, too. It's not even about the skating skills or the spins or programs (though another coach could certainly help him in that area), just polishing the jump landings would do wonders.

Maybe after 2015 Jason and Max just should've traded coaching situations entirely and they'd both be more well-rounded talents now? (Of course I realize it isn't that simple - just wishful thinking ).

Tom Z. bashing aside - I'm very impressed with Camden Pulkinen. I haven't watched him too much (junior men are a little cringey for me), but his skating skills and posture are more than adequate for where he's at in his career right now.

(He's also got the best pair of eyebrows I've ever seen on a human being, let alone a man!)

 

[andromache]

My biggest problem with Max has been, and continues to be, his lack of flexibility and difficulty in his spins because they are fixable. This is an area where most of the top Men can beat him easily. Nathan, Adam, Jason, and Tim Dolensky garner so many points off of their spins and that's an area where Max, IMO, has stalled.

I'm not sure I would put Nathan in a group of good spinners. When he's on, his spins are certainly above-average. But when he's not skating particularly well (like this weekend) the spins are slooooooow. OTOH, Jason, Adam, and Tim deliver great spins even when the performance isn't going well. And I say this as a Nathan fan. The spins need work. If Shoma Uno can deliver high quality spins even when the jumps go awry, then Nathan should be able to, too. But Nathan, when off, skates cautious. Shoma goes full-out every single time, which I think makes the difference.

I generally don't get off on adjudicating old championships, but Adam's huge PCS didn't win him that championship. It was his inflated TES - not even the 4Z but the inflated GOE on almost every element. I thought at the time, and still do, that it is the most obvious incident of US National judges pumping up the desired winner.

I didn't find Adam's GOE inflated at all - I thought it was well-deserved (taking Nationals inflation into account). When on, the quality of his elements is very high, and his landing positions are just great. (Judging by the reactions of the judges and commentators, Adam was NOT the desired winner, IMO, but Max skated tentatively and utterly without the excitement and intensity he brought to Skate America earlier that season, which resulted in lower PCS than he might've received otherwise.)

I hate adjudicating old championships, but I just had to jump in. There's definitely a fair argument to be made about the 4Lz rotation call - but I don't think it has anything to do with a conspiracy theory to push Adam to gold.