2017-18 State of U.S. Ladies Skating | Page 221 | Golden Skate

2017-18 State of U.S. Ladies Skating

Andromache had a suggestion of sending the top three skaters at Nationals who don't make the Olympic team to 4 CC then picking the best three from those events and sending them to Worlds. I do feel like we could see some breakthroughs this year--that it's a transitional period for American Ladies.

The USFSA has got to start focusing on young talent and giving them opportunities to compete and access to good coaching. We have had a lot of women over the years who aren't usually medal contenders but stick around multiple Olympic cycles and take up plum GP, 4CC, and World spots. Would someone like Bradie have emerged earlier had she been given more opportunities? Would Karen and Courtney be doing better if the USFSA paired them up with a different coaches earlier on? After watching the GPF and JGPF and seeing how well the Russian and Japanese women are competing, I realized how dire the situation is. It isn't more dire only because Karen had the competition of her life at Worlds to keep 3 Olympic spots. Hopefully, at least one younger skater surprises us all at Nationals and earns one of those spots to gain some experience to build upon.
 
A separate thread on this was started already, but Mirai Nagasu did a another site “AMA” session:

https://www.another site.com/r/IAmA/comments/7jkud3/i_am_figure_skater_mirai_nagasu_i_won_the_us/

I mention it here because there’s a tidbit in here that’s relevant to our current discussion: looks like Nagasu currently plans to continue competing beyond this season (there were thoughts that she might be done after 2018). Even if compatriot Wagner departs as expected, it won’t get any easier for Nagasu (despite the crappy state of US ladies)...she must really love skating. I suppose ultimately it will depend partially on how successful her 2018 bid is...
 
The USFSA has got to start focusing on young talent and giving them opportunities to compete and access to good coaching. We have had a lot of women over the years who aren't usually medal contenders but stick around multiple Olympic cycles and take up plum GP, 4CC, and World spots. Would someone like Bradie have emerged earlier had she been given more opportunities? Would Karen and Courtney be doing better if the USFSA paired them up with a different coaches earlier on? After watching the GPF and JGPF and seeing how well the Russian and Japanese women are competing, I realized how dire the situation is. It isn't more dire only because Karen had the competition of her life at Worlds to keep 3 Olympic spots. Hopefully, at least one younger skater surprises us all at Nationals and earns one of those spots to gain some experience to build upon.

I think it's short sided to blame not having coaches as the source of the problem. The problem is the system itself. It's not made for putting out top athletes. Instead it's made for growing decent athletes that are competive domestically but crumble internationally.

Take Bradie. Her score at JW was in the 160s. The reason wasn't coaching but because she was injured. She didn't change her coaches but instead decided to work hard to earn the SA spot. The same thing with Mariah the year before. When they to earn the SA spot, their performance improved dramatically.

Think about it, is there anything that skaters must earn other than SA? USFS doles out CS spots like their nothing. Low scoring skaters get handed these spots with little work out into it. It's kind of them to give them the opportunities, but every spot that USFS designates themselves should be earned. All ladies should have to compete against each other for these coveted spots. There is no excuse for any lady to earn less than 160 at a CS. And 160 should only be by newbies that have competed for the first time. Vets like a Courtney and Angela should earning 175 or more every competition.

Furthermore, the should be competing more frequently and against each other. Amber's first competition was in July when That was Bradie's fourth competition. It's not surprising her performances at Lombardía and CoC were so poor.

Bradie has proven that with the right preparation and motivation all skaters can become champions. Our ladies need to be pushed! They need to compete more and have to work for these spots. When they start feeling the pinch at home, they'll be more fired up at the GP.
 
I think it's short sided to blame not having coaches as the source of the problem. The problem is the system itself. It's not made for putting out top athletes. Instead it's made for growing decent athletes that are competive domestically but crumble internationally.

You make a lot of good points, but I do think our women need better coaching early on. Mirai, Karen, and now Ashley have a severe problem rotating jumps such that they can stay on their feet for an entire program and finish well off the podium. This isn't a new problem, and due to muscle memory they haven't been able to shake whatever bad habits cause it. If any of these women had Gracie's technique, they would be a lot more competitive with the very top women in the world.
 
You make a lot of good points, but I do think our women need better coaching early on. Mirai, Karen, and now Ashley have a severe problem rotating jumps such that they can stay on their feet for an entire program and finish well off the podium. This isn't a new problem, and due to muscle memory they haven't been able to shake whatever bad habits cause it. If any of these women had Gracie's technique, they would be a lot more competitive with the very top women in the world.

Better tech controllers will fix that. There are only so many top coaches. It's impossible to send all skaters to them for the basics. We need the basic coaches to teach the basics properly. A tough judging will fix these problems.
 
Angela wasn't eligible for a Grand Prix event in the initial selection round (held back in June) because she wasn't on the Seasons Best Score list from which the candidates (and GP substitutes, later on) are chosen. She also wasn't in the top 24 on the World Ranking list. Angela wasn't on the list because she was injured last fall and withdrew from her GP event and didn't do a Challenge event or ISU Championship event (4CC). B events other than Challenges don't get on the SB list.

She did do two Challenge events this fall so will be eligible for the GP next season.

Angela has better chances at getting a GP slot next season vs. this season, but she still has some gap to auto-qualification. From a world standings perspective, she's lying in 58th with 998 points; the cut-off for top 24 is currently 1,923 (the 925-point gap there is more than she can bridge even if she wins 4CC which is worth 840 points). The current cut-off for top 24 season's best is in the mid-190s, and she'll be up against Ashley, Karen and Mariah for the opportunity to go to ISU championship comps and beat that.

I'd say the most likely route for Angela to get a GP would probably be as the SA host pick. But hoping that she can have a chance to go to 4CC this season!
 
Angela has better chances at getting a GP slot next season vs. this season, but she still has some gap to auto-qualification. From a world standings perspective, she's lying in 58th with 998 points; the cut-off for top 24 is currently 1,923 (the 925-point gap there is more than she can bridge even if she wins 4CC which is worth 840 points). The current cut-off for top 24 season's best is in the mid-190s, and she'll be up against Ashley, Karen and Mariah for the opportunity to go to ISU championship comps and beat that.

I'd say the most likely route for Angela to get a GP would probably be as the SA host pick. But hoping that she can have a chance to go to 4CC this season!

Angela was the SA host pick last season, but unfortunately got injured and had to WD.
 
Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!! Less than 2 weeks until the ladies sp at nationals!!!!!!!!! Please, someone, is there any news , updates, photos, something from the skaters?? Even a costume change? Who’s posting videos to Instagram? Who’s looking like a shoo-in for the podium?
 
I wonder if the fact that some of our skaters began skating in the 6.0 era makes a difference in the skills they do now and how they skate in general. Mirai and Ashley have UR problems, and both began competing under the 6.0 system. back then UR's weren't looked at nearly as much or scrutinized like they are now. coming from a former skater who began in that same era and had to learn IJS at about 13-14 years old, it was quite a big change to get used to in training. I had to work on new spins, count revolutions, learn new positions and understand levels. footwork was a very different ball game to try and get a level 4 and learn things going the other direction. I had to train my jumps harder to fix any under rotations that were obvious. being that your basics begin obviously when you're very young, I really think it makes it harder down the road because you have to attempt to change things you learned when you were very young. I wonder if the case would have been different for them had they began skating under IJS.
 
I wonder if the fact that some of our skaters began skating in the 6.0 era makes a difference in the skills they do now and how they skate in general. Mirai and Ashley have UR problems, and both began competing under the 6.0 system. back then UR's weren't looked at nearly as much or scrutinized like they are now. coming from a former skater who began in that same era and had to learn IJS at about 13-14 years old, it was quite a big change to get used to in training. I had to work on new spins, count revolutions, learn new positions and understand levels. footwork was a very different ball game to try and get a level 4 and learn things going the other direction. I had to train my jumps harder to fix any under rotations that were obvious. being that your basics begin obviously when you're very young, I really think it makes it harder down the road because you have to attempt to change things you learned when you were very young. I wonder if the case would have been different for them had they began skating under IJS.

I know pretty much every post I make in this thread mentions Ice Talk, but Michelle Kwan talked about this in the last episode. How she had to get used to a whole lot of new things under the new system.
 
No one, literally. The most likely podium finisher at this point, Bradie, has placed no higher than 6th in any previous Nationals.

Bradie has been at only two Senior Nationals before this year. That she was 6th at her first is pretty amazing; she had an injury last year and was 9th.
 
The USFSA has got to start focusing on young talent and giving them opportunities to compete and access to good coaching. We have had a lot of women over the years who aren't usually medal contenders but stick around multiple Olympic cycles and take up plum GP, 4CC, and World spots. Would someone like Bradie have emerged earlier had she been given more opportunities? Would Karen and Courtney be doing better if the USFSA paired them up with a different coaches earlier on? After watching the GPF and JGPF and seeing how well the Russian and Japanese women are competing, I realized how dire the situation is. It isn't more dire only because Karen had the competition of her life at Worlds to keep 3 Olympic spots. Hopefully, at least one younger skater surprises us all at Nationals and earns one of those spots to gain some experience to build upon.

To be fair to USFS re: Bradie - she has been given opportunities, some of which I have personally criticized in the past. For example, I thought younger skaters should've been sent to Junior Worlds in both 2016 and 2017 - though I'm no longer sure that was such a bad decision, if those less-than-ideal competitive experiences have helped her achieve more consistency.

I agree though, in general, about the non-medal contenders sticking around who are given spots that might be more effectively used if given to younger, more inexperienced skaters. At the same time, it feels wrong to tell skaters like Sam Cesario (who I know is retired now) and Courtney Hicks and Angela Wang "hey, it's clear you're never in your life going to be in danger of winning a World or Olympic or GPF medal (or even making the GPF) so we're going to stop giving you good opportunities internationally" and effectively ending their international careers.

Then again, maybe that sort of response by USFS would force these stagnating skaters to make dramatic changes in order to achieve the better results they need to be more competitive.

Karen needed to change coaches two years ago. Her URs and inconsistent results are such major red flags that there just hasn't been any improvement on.

There are some promising novices/juniors, but the ones who are old enough to compete as seniors internationally are really unimpressive. Maybe Tessa Hong will surprise us, now that she's been healthy for a longer period of time and is Frank's main focus. Emmy Ma is old enough to compete as a senior internationally, but she really, really needs a 3-3. Starr - I just don't get the hype based on what she has delivered. I could see it if she was inconsistent but otherwise excellent, but that isn't the case. Her skating skills are very, very rough, especially.

All of the other junior ladies too young to compete as seniors are inconsistent and need to work on various things. Kaitlyn Nguyen is promising - she's a jumping bean who desperately needs refinement, but that's better than a refined girl who can't rotate a jump. Hanna Harrell had an amazing sectionals and is already getting some attention, but her JGP event wasn't great. Honestly, based on her Sectionals performance and the protocol, it looks like she's getting the benefit of the doubt on some rotations that look close. What do others think? I'm bad at detecting URs, especially without slow-mo. I think her jumps look iffy.

If USFS wants to get their ladies onto international podiums, tech panels at home need to start nitpicking over every jump and hammering these girls. That will get coaches to fix what they're teaching, and if they don't, then parents will take their students to a coach who will get the good results. Sloppy, sloppy tech panels at lower levels are so bad for the US ladies.
 
I wonder if the fact that some of our skaters began skating in the 6.0 era makes a difference in the skills they do now and how they skate in general. Mirai and Ashley have UR problems, and both began competing under the 6.0 system. back then UR's weren't looked at nearly as much or scrutinized like they are now. coming from a former skater who began in that same era and had to learn IJS at about 13-14 years old, it was quite a big change to get used to in training. I had to work on new spins, count revolutions, learn new positions and understand levels. footwork was a very different ball game to try and get a level 4 and learn things going the other direction. I had to train my jumps harder to fix any under rotations that were obvious. being that your basics begin obviously when you're very young, I really think it makes it harder down the road because you have to attempt to change things you learned when you were very young. I wonder if the case would have been different for them had they began skating under IJS.

The thing is, URs continue to be a persistent problem for US ladies who were born when 6.0 was in the process of being dismantled. Karen Chen has UR problems. Our junior ladies have UR problems. Tech panels are letting URs slide domestically, and that's enabling these bad habits at an age when it would be much easier to fix them early on.
 
Given that URs are a definite problem, you would think coaches would be concentrating on "fixing" them.
 
Given that URs are a definite problem, you would think coaches would be concentrating on "fixing" them.

My hypothesis is that for levels at novice and below (way before any international competitions start happening), parents are going to be impatient. They want to see their kids get the triples as quickly as possible. While learning the triples, their kids keep falling. (Proper jump technique takes more time to learn, I would assume.) So coaches teach iffy technique. Parents are happy! Their kid is learning the triples so fast! Then when the kid competes exclusively in local/otherwise domestic competitions, the tech panel isn't calling anything, so the kids with all their UR triples start winning, and the parents continue rejoicing.

Up until you compete internationally or move to another coach. Suddenly, at an international competition and/or with a more experienced coach, your jumps aren't good enough, you know, you're working on technique, etc., and all of these changes undermine all of your confidence and make you a less consistent skater.

I don't know, really. I'm just speculating.
 
My hypothesis is that for levels at novice and below (way before any international competitions start happening), parents are going to be impatient. They want to see their kids get the triples as quickly as possible. While learning the triples, their kids keep falling. (Proper jump technique takes more time to learn, I would assume.) So coaches teach iffy technique. Parents are happy! Their kid is learning the triples so fast! Then when the kid competes exclusively in local/otherwise domestic competitions, the tech panel isn't calling anything, so the kids with all their UR triples start winning, and the parents continue rejoicing.

Up until you compete internationally or move to another coach. Suddenly, at an international competition and/or with a more experienced coach, your jumps aren't good enough, you know, you're working on technique, etc., and all of these changes undermine all of your confidence and make you a less consistent skater.

I don't know, really. I'm just speculating.

I disagree. If you are the kind who'd spend a lot of money on your kids and your kids can do triples, you do watch figure skating, you do know what underrotation is.
If random fans can call underrotation from 480p youtube clip, you as the kids and as the parents know for sure about the underrotation problem. You have a lot at stake (money, time, effort) so you know what you do better than anyone else.

You see skaters from state-sponsored countries having UR problems as well. They were paid by state-fund for training. They still have problems.

Some people are gifted with fast rotation, with speed, height, so they rarely have any problems. The people whose talent do not match their drive are the ones that probably run into UR problem.
 
Given that URs are a definite problem, you would think coaches would be concentrating on "fixing" them.

Mao asada, miki ando, satoko etc... all have UR problem. They are hard working skaters by all account. Their coaches appear to know what they are doing. Yet, they can't "fix" the problem. I think it's more physical limitation from the skaters, and not the coach or the technique so much.
 
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