2017-18 State of Russian Ladies skating

[atsumiri]

Well, I at least have never felt real interpretation in Trusova's skating, though I guess that can be subjective to a degree. Purely choreo'd expression of music not performed with full conviction... I guess counts but I at least can't feel it. That's more a credit to the choreographer.

I just can repeat myself

The problem is you think someone having an amazing SS. Other people see just average... or even below average SS.
There're a lot of aspects in skating. You're looking/prefer one aspect... other looking for others.. It's why this sport is subjective
You're blaming that someone has bad/good SS... Others will never agree with you..

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Well, I at least have never felt real interpretation in Trusova's skating, though I guess that can be subjective to a degree. Purely choreo'd expression of music not performed with full conviction... I guess counts but I at least can't feel it. That's more a credit to the choreographer.

TBH...I have a hard time finding anything she isn’t doing that’s required for Interpretation of the Music scores.

Interpretation of the Music/Timing (Ice Dancing)
The personal, creative and genuine translation of the rhythm, character and content of the music to movement on ice. In evaluating the Interpretation of the Music(/Timing), the following must be considered:

-Movement and steps in time to the music (timing)
-Expression of the music’s character/feeling and rhythm, when clearly identifiable
-Use of finesse to reflect the details and nuances of the music (Finesse is the skaters’ refined, artful manipulation of music details and nuances through movement. It is unique to the skater/skaters and demonstrates an inner feeling for the music and the composition. Nuances are the personal ways of bringing subtle variations to the intensity, tempo and dynamics of the composer and/or musicians.)

I can see how personal taste can play a role...for example I prefer Tarakanova’s passionate style of interpreting over both Alyona and Sasha but I don’t think all of the judges need to agree. I actually enjoy all three a lot.

 

[Shayuki]

I just can repeat myself

What on earth are you going on about that for? You could reason that it's possible to have "an opinion" that 1+1=3. I'm not interested in discussions such as those - If you don't get it you don't get it. The "opinion" card is pretty much the most annoying thing to deal with and it's almost impossible to have a sensible argument with actual points and examples therefore in those cases so I've learned to just walk away from people like that.

TBH...I have a hard time finding anything she isn’t doing that’s required for Interpretation of the Music scores.



I can see how personal taste can play a role...for example I prefer Tarakanova’s passionate style of interpreting over both Alyona and Sasha but I don’t think all of the judges need to agree. I actually enjoy all three a lot.

I believe there is a serious difference between mechanically executing choreo and actually interpreting music. If you have to point at some rules or justify interpretation etc. it's probably not working.

 

[andromache]

whole post

I'm not really going to disagree with anything you've said, other than that Trusova's skating does not read as effortless to me - though how we define effortless is very subjective.

I find her edges to be extremely shallow, and there's a staccato quality to her transitions/skating that (to me) comes off as less effortless than Kosternaia, whose skating is more smooth and shows much deeper edges.

As for someone with simpler skating who I find to be just as impressive as Trusova (okay, I find her more impressive, personally), let's look at 2016 Adelina Sotnikova. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwOx4cV6HzU

I am bad at identifying types of steps, and sure, there are a lot of crossovers, but there is incredible smoothness and depth of edge to every stroke and every step, and her speed and ice coverage are on an entirely other level than Trusova.

There is value is looking at the qualities of the skating beyond the transitions is all I am saying.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I believe there is a serious difference between mechanically executing choreo and actually interpreting music. If you have to point at some rules or justify interpretation etc. it's probably not working.

Speak for yourself only please because I have never referred to any skater as mechanical ... ever. And to say that I have to point out some rule to justify Interpretation is insulting. You seem to be ignoring the post I made where I used actual examples of skating to show and discuss her movements and what the judges are seeing.. I only posted the rules because of a post you made where you offered a blanket opinion in which she executed her choreography with a lacking of conviction but provide no reasoning or examples.

 

[Shayuki]

Speak for yourself only please because I have never referred to any skater as mechanical ... ever. And to say that I have to point out some rule to justify Interpretation is insulting. You seem to be ignoring the post I made where I used actual examples of skating to show and discuss her movements and what the judges are seeing.. I only posted the rules because of a post you made where you offered a blanket opinion in which she executed her choreography with a lacking of conviction but provide no reasoning or examples.

Examples of her executing her choreography with lacking conviction?

Both the SP and the FS from start to finish are examples - I think that's what she does in every program of hers that I've seen so what sort of examples were you looking for? Perhaps it's her looking like she's just half-assing it like "well I'll do this because it's in the choreo" but there's no sense that she really means it. Perhaps it's the eyes or the facial expression or perhaps it's because her entire upper body doesn't make enough of a movement and it's more like "I'll execute this passably enough" rather than "this means the world to me to do this as well as possible"? Maybe it's because her entire body isn't in sync with the movements in a perfect manner? Her movement also look pretty forced and jerky rather than smooth and beautiful. It's always difficult to explain properly when you actually have to put it into words, isn't it?. But judging by many comments in various places I don't seem to be the only one who sees this.

We can of course always go here if you want to see my example of weak inter SS vs amazing inter SS by skaters under the same coach:
https://streamable.com/h7j0b


Simply executing movements vs understanding the meaning behind every movement and living them out in a convincing manner is a very different thing that's easy to see but hard to quantify.

Two skaters can make the same exact move choreographically that you can easily recognize that it's the same exact move but one has 500 times the impact that the other does.

 

[atsumiri]

ETA: And let's remember that skating skills don't equal transitions, as many of the above posts seem to be forgetting. You can have a ton of transitions but still demonstrate weaker/less impressive skating skills than someone else (Trusova, for example, has more transitions than any non-Eteri girls, but probably weak skating skills than many.)

SKATING SKILLS - Defined by overall cleanness and sureness, edge control and flow over the ice surface demonstrated by a command of the skating vocabulary (edges, steps, turns etc.), the clarity of technique and the use of effortless power to accelerate and vary speed.
- Use of deep edges, steps and turns
- Balance, rhythmic knee action and precision of foot placement
- Flow and glide
- Varied use of power, speed and acceleration
- Use of multi directional skating
- Use of one foot skating

3 of 6 aspects of definition SS can describe TR as well.
so if a skater doesn't show any difficult steps or turns... And just use almost only crossovers to regain speed then do an element, and then again crossovers for speed... I don't see anything that will show good SS in this skating. Same with skaters who almost doesn't show one-foot skating...
Even 5-6 y.o kids can do crossovers and skate in a two-foot.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I find her edges to be extremely shallow, and there's a staccato quality to her transitions/skating that (to me) comes off as less effortless than Kosternaia, whose skating is more smooth and shows much deeper edges.

True...Alyona has great skating skills although a bit subdued and lacking in dynamics but I think a lot of that is just her music this season. She is such a contrast from Anastasia and Sasha with her almost classical quality of skating and similar to Masha takes on rather simple interpretation that isn’t full of character and let’s the little movements speak for themselves..... although Masha seems to be adding character as the season unfolds. Don’t be fooled though because she rips off high quality transitions and steps when she needs to!

What’s strange for me is that no matter how much I love her...I dont really rewatch her programs as often as the others from JGPF. I think though it says more about me

 

[Shayuki]

Even 5-6 y.o kids can do crossovers and skate in a two-foot.

Actually, the best 5-year-olds can do much more than that.

Take care to not accidentally insult them~

 

[alvina9894]

classical quality of skating and similar to Masha takes on rather simple interpretation that isn’t full of character and let’s the little movements speak for themselves

No offence to Maria. But excuse me??? You might be blind if you think Maria and Alena have similar skating. I can assure you that there is huge discrepancy between their footwork, posture and upper limb positioning.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

No offence to Maria. But excuse me??? You might be blind if you think Maria and Alena have similar skating. I can assure you that there is huge discrepancy between their footwork, posture and upper limb positioning.

I was discussing a similar character of interpretation. More specifically that they don’t use overt character to portray their programs. It’s right there after the part you bolded

 

[andromache]

SKATING SKILLS - Defined by overall cleanness and sureness, edge control and flow over the ice surface demonstrated by a command of the skating vocabulary (edges, steps, turns etc.), the clarity of technique and the use of effortless power to accelerate and vary speed.
- Use of deep edges, steps and turns
- Balance, rhythmic knee action and precision of foot placement
- Flow and glide
- Varied use of power, speed and acceleration
- Use of multi directional skating
- Use of one foot skating

3 of 6 aspects of definition SS can describe TR as well.
so if a skater doesn't show any difficult steps or turns... And just use almost only crossovers to regain speed then do an element, and then again crossovers for speed... I don't see anything that will show good SS in this skating. Same with skaters who almost doesn't show one-foot skating...
Even 5-6 y.o kids can do crossovers and skate in a two-foot.

As you say, even 5-6 y.o. kids can do crossovers and skate in a two-foot (you might mean one-foot?).

All junior/senior skaters do these things. Especially the elite ones we are discussing.

Simpler skating can still demonstrate "a command of skating vocabulary" just as well as a program packed with transitions. Nowhere does this category state that steps and turns must exclusively be used, or that more = better. Alina (another Eteri skater with impressive transitions but less impressive skating skills) and Trusova both use a lot of the things you've bolded, but they are weaker in terms of speed, flow, glide, and deep edges.

(I think a lot of Alina's skating bent-over problem is because she's trying to gain speed while still executing her difficult transitions - in general, I would say that being able to maintain gorgeous posture while gaining speed/executing steps is indicative of skating skills.)

I would personally be inclined to reward speed, flow etc. in the skating skills mark over steps and turns (I mean, I'd obviously reward both, but I would reward the former more) because the transitions mark specifies difficulty and variety of steps/turns, and I think differentiating between PCS categories is useful.

In my opinion, there's nothing wrong with a few beautifully executed crossovers that take a skater flying to the other end of the rink.

(obligatory John Curry mention: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xojrWqgEcCw)

 

[andromache]

Simply executing movements vs understanding the meaning behind every movement and living them out in a convincing manner is a very different thing that's easy to see but hard to quantify.

Two skaters can make the same exact move choreographically that you can easily recognize that it's the same exact move but one has 500 times the impact that the other does.

This is something I believe, too, but because it's impossible to quantify, it's also something people are always going to disagree about.

(I definitely don't see Trusova as half-assing anything. She's a kid. Most junior skaters aren't capable of skating with the kind of passion and commitment to interpretation that you describe. I think Trusova is like Elena Radionova - she likes to ham it up and play to the audience and she's an engaging performer, though she's no interpretative majestic wonder.

There are also skaters who execute every movement beautifully and are still viewed by many as lacking that sense of real emotion/commitment, like Satoko and the Shibs.)

 

[Spirals for Miles]

Wait who thinks that the ShibSibs don't have real emotion/commitment? :dev2:
I think Trusova has good skating skills, and I agree that she's a lot like Lena at her age...

 

[Shayuki]

I definitely don't see Trusova as half-assing anything. She's a kid. Most junior skaters aren't capable of skating with the kind of passion and commitment to interpretation that you describe. I think Trusova is like Elena Radionova - she likes to ham it up and play to the audience and she's an engaging performer, though she's no interpretative majestic wonder.

Well, I just mean it seems like that. She probably doesn't do it intentionally. And I recognize she's just a kid, but that's still a part of her. I'm still going to judge her inter by how it is right now - Perhaps it will change for the better in the future.

She's quite different from Radionova, though. Radionova is clearly an extrovert who loves to perform and is someone I'd consider somewhat natural. Trusova isn't the same way to me, she seems to shut herself out. A more lyrical performance might suit her better than the type for her SP - It's one of the reasons(Among others) for the program not being very convincing in my eyes.

Note, I do think they share some similarities in that they both are pretty childish with their performance abilities but they are portrayed quite differently at least to me.

Ah, and I'm specifically talking about junior Radionova, of course.

 

[atsumiri]

In my opinion, there's nothing wrong with a few beautifully executed crossovers that take a skater flying to the other end of the rink.

one time with a few crossovers - yes. I agree.
but.... when the full program built almost just from crossovers? For me, it shows that skater isn't capable to do more. that skater isn't capable to show difficulty in steps and turns and still be able to do elements or gain speed.

But of course, it's just me. :
I prefer to see difficult turns and one-foot skating instead of two-foot skating with crossovers' dominance.
for example... When I saw Wakaba's skating live from the arena... I was very disappointed because of that. She is my favorite Japanese skater and from tv-screen, her foot-work doesn't look so weak... but from tribune.... It really empty and weak for my taste.

 

[alvina9894]

I think this video would explain very well what is the difference between execution and interpretation, comparing the two girls side by side.

 

[russianfan]

I would personally be inclined to reward speed, flow etc. in the skating skills mark over steps and turns (I mean, I'd obviously reward both, but I would reward the former more) because the transitions mark specifies difficulty and variety of steps/turns, and I think differentiating between PCS categories is useful.

There is a sport where this is rewarded more, see speed skating

 

[andromache]

I think this video would explain very well what is the difference between execution and interpretation, comparing the two girls side by side.

Awesome video, and you're totally right on. Anna S. really does have more commitment/oomph in her movements.

 

[Lily flowers]

one time with a few crossovers - yes. I agree.
but.... when the full program built almost just from crossovers? For me, it shows that skater isn't capable to do more. that skater isn't capable to show difficulty in steps and turns and still be able to do elements or gain speed.

But of course, it's just me. :
I prefer to see difficult turns and one-foot skating instead of two-foot skating with crossovers' dominance.
for example... When I saw Wakaba's skating live from the arena... I was very disappointed because of that. She is my favorite Japanese skater and from tv-screen, her foot-work doesn't look so weak... but from tribune.... It really empty and weak for my taste.

Yes, we really can’t judge skating skills from the screen at all. To be able to differentiate between good and bad skating skills, and how the scores compare, we need to be where the judges are.

And I prefer skating with complicated turns over speed as well. Just seems more impressive.