2017-18 State of U.S. Men's Figure Skating

[mindatwork]

HERE IS ONE clean FS of Vincent in official practice:

http://t.cn/RH8Kvxl?m=4192426761235621&u=6190792758

Talking about 5 QUADS program consistency, Talking about PEAK towards OG.

Vincent deserves and needs to be sent to 2018 OG.

I don't disagree that Vincent deserves to be sent to the OG after his performance at Nationals...but I fail to see how practice factors into his quad consistency. Being clean in practice is important, but actually showing up to competition and landing jumps is more important, imo. his performance tonight was impressive, and I'm excited to see how he grows...but I think he still has a decent amount of work to do with regards to cleanliness in international competitions.

 

[NAOTMAA]

Vincent was top 3 at nationals for the second year running. They didn't give him the ticket to worlds last year even though he won silver. It would be terrible for them to deny him again

 

[Seren]

I will be surprised if Ross gets sent to the OG (and I will also owe one of the skate dads at my rink $5). Ross had a great nationals, but USFS wasn't expecting Adam and Jason to perform like they did. Adam has qualified for 2 GPF and won multiple GP medals. Ross has done- not much. That's not to say I dislike Ross, but USFS has repeatedly said that they want to send the team with the best potential to win medals. I agree that Adam is unlikely to medal but Ross is about 3x less likely than that.

As for Jason (who I love to watch more than any other men's skater). I hope he takes this disappointment and becomes stronger for it (pull a Mirai!). He has every quality minus the tech. I hope he takes a look after this at what he wants to accomplish and how he needs to get there. Hopefully in the end it will end up being a stepping stone to move forward in his career. I imagine he will get 4cc's. But now is a perfect time to reflect on what he needs to do to get where he wants.

And for the commentators implying that Jason's skating belongs back in the 1980's please come back when you can do 1/10 of what he can.

Vincent deserves to go- he came through and the experience would only benefit him. And Adam has proved himself over these past 2 years, one wonky competition shouldn't override 2 years of work.

I am of the opinion that the winner of nationals punches their card. In most cases the top 1-3 would be the team but I think there are exceptions to this. I agreed with Ashley making the team in 2014 just as I agree she should not have made it this year. And Adam deserves to go to the OG. Ross doesn't deserve to go over Vincent or Adam.

 

[Tavi...]

Nope Vincent is the MOST consistent in term of 5 quads complete FS in this event!!!

He is almost clean is every practice session!!

Practice is irrelevant. Out of 5 quads tonight, 3 were < and 1 was <<. One was clean. He fell. How is that consistent?

 

[chopinskate]

Happy for Nathan and Vincent!

(But also, where's Jimmy Ma's fan fest? )

 

[dailytg20]

After letting this sink in for a bit and reading the discussion here and in the Men's FS thread, I am leaning towards the opinion that Nationals should be the Olympic qualifier, fullstop. Body of work should be considered for Worlds, because that is the competition that earns future spots and it's smart to choose the skaters who have the highest scoring potential based on both Nationals and past results. Everyone wants their Olympic glory moment, but at the end of the day, scoring high at the Olympics doesn't qualify you or your country for anything.

This isn't the way it works right now, obviously. So....God help those who are actually responsible for this decision.

I have to agree. The more I think about it, especially from the point of view of a casual fan or general sports enthusiast, the more I think straight up defining Nationals as the Olympic qualifier makes more sense. At least then we can debate performances and judging at a single event, closer to the Olympics timing-wise, with direct competition between all candidates involved. We can still have issues with scoring, but at least we are not playing with numbers across multiple events in addition to Nationals, and we are not relying on all viewers to have knowledge of past outcomes to understand the selections process.

If the USFS decides to keep with this body of work criteria, then they need to educate the viewer about what this means for Nationals and how the candidates are being cumulatively ranked going in and out of the event. And even if they do this, ultimately I feel like this makes the sport less accessible overall--which seems like the wrong way to go for the Olympics given that it will attract the largest audience of casual viewers.

 

[Anyasnake]

If you have to go through the selection criteria :

Last year, Vincent was 2nd at Nationals and won Junior Worlds. Add a podium at senior B's this year and his 3rd place finish here.
Ross : one good competition, but turns out it's in tier 1.
Adam : injured last year. Gp season = one silver medal (+one 4th place) + a trip to GPF + podium at Senior B.

Realistically : Nathan, Vincent, Adam. Ross proved it once only here (look at his others scores of the season... not good), Vincent has the technical (and with a non-consistant tech panel for everybody, it's ridiculous), Adam didn't do well but this time and intl judges go with him. Jason has to be out (otherwise you can riot), he is on wrong train this year.

Don't forget USFS is a federantion, they'll do anything to get the right results, they don't handle Olympic spots like a gift. They have to fight the very powerful men of JSF, Kholyada, Jin and Fernandez (and maaaybe Chan).

 

[NoStefaniaNo]

I don't think so. Think of the PR nightmare. Ross got the silver medal, the highest anyone could have possibly placed, and he still doesn't get to go to the Olympics?

Yes, Ross Miner has been a mediocre, has-been skater for the last 10 years but ... I don't know. Does 10 years of being a mediocre, has-been skater, who also was once on a World's team that only got 2 spots -- does that override a silver medal? We know it overrides a bronze but not a silver

It should, but I am more of a gymnastics fan and quite used to the notion of an athlete's history making up a bigger part of the decision. It is odd to me that a few minutes of a skater's career should weigh more than their body of work. Heck, I even think it's strange that they set out such specific criteria about the body of work. Casual fans and the general public would understand it if the broadcast didn't treat the event as an Olympic team coronation. I blame NBC for most of that.

 

[Putina]

My life is complete after watching Zhou's 4Lz+3T combo. It is the single most exhilarating figure skating element I have ever watched.

 

[Alchamei]

I think you people are also forgetting that Zhou was insanely overscored on PCS (he deserved 80 at max, even with inflation) and Adam would have pulled over him if Zhou was scored correctly. Obviously I can't really say Adam was robbed since he did there big mistakes but has the scoring been acurate, he would have been on the podium and the discusion would have been about Miner and Zhou only.

 

[concorde]

I've been pondering this since last night.

I can see the selection committee going for either finish order OR "body of work."

If they go with finish order, they can say that the top finishers all successfully landed a quad with positive GOEs. End of story.

If they go with "body of work," then it would be hard to argue for Adam but no Jason (or vice versa). Both made the JPF (regardless of final placement) which is a big deal with Adam finishing ahead of Jason. Then to boost Jason's body of work, they point to his finish at Worlds last year and how he was on the "team" that secured the 3 spots (don't get me going there - I disagree with USFS's decision to bump Vincent for Jason).

I really cannot see them bumping Vincent for a second time. If they did that, I would think he would really question if going to Nationals was really worth it since clearly for him, placements mean nothing.

As a type this, I think the decision will be Olympic team is the finish order. 4CC is Adam, Grant, and Jason. World team is Nathan, Vincent, and Adam.

I really don't like it when "body of work" trumps finish order. To many "what ifs" and second guessing.

 

[concorde]

Casual fans and the general public would understand it if the broadcast didn't treat the event as an Olympic team coronation. I blame NBC for most of that.

For years the networks have stated that US Nationals is NOT the Olympic trails and that USFS determine who make the team.
The issue is the people do not want to hear.

 

[1111bm]

HERE IS ONE clean FS of Vincent in official practice:

http://t.cn/RH8Kvxl?m=4192426761235621&u=6190792758

Talking about 5 QUADS program consistency, Talking about PEAK towards OG.

Vincent deserves and needs to be sent to 2018 OG.

Clean? Because he didn't fall and had just one hand down? Even in that low quality without slow-mo replay I can spot definite UR on the 4F and 3F. 4S and 4T also look suspiciously UR. I'll give him the 3As and 4Lzs, those worked, but not the rest of the jumps.

 

[Alchamei]

And also, if you dislike the body of work so much, don't forget there is also the team event, where US needs another good scoring man because they can't tire out Nathan. Miner hasn't archived anything this season so the judges won't score him well and doesn't land his quad 99% times and Vincent has the goods but he is so inconsistent and even the home panel slaughtered him on TES. Adam is probably the best pick for the second spot at the team event, since he is consistent and int judges like him.

 

[Bluediamonds09]

Jimmy Ma saying “Sh*t!” during the rink side reaction gave me life! LOL

I’m actually surprised, since fs is so “proper” that US figure skating allowed that to be shown.

 

[TMC]

I think you people are also forgetting that Zhou was insanely overscored on PCS (he deserved 80 at max, even with inflation) and Adam would have pulled over him if Zhou was scored correctly. Obviously I can't really say Adam was robbed since he did there big mistakes but has the scoring been acurate, he would have been on the podium and the discusion would have been about Miner and Zhou only.

Yes, it's funny to see people whining on twitter that he got too many ur calls because the judges were trying to help Jason/Adam when at the same time the judges gave him nearly 20 points more in PCS than he got at his last int'l event. If they wanted to hold him down surely they could have gotten away with giving him 82 or something? Whatever, all of the guys' PCS marks seem wildly off one way or another, as per usual

 

[Tavi...]

For those who are arguing that Nationals should be the straight up Olympic qualifier, my understanding is that USFS cannot or will not do this because it has contractual implications- ie, that they would have to cede control or revenue to the USOC or ISU - I’m not 100% clear on details and can’t find the reference right now, but I know there’s a reason why they don’t do it.

 

[Feline Feeder]

I added the points up this way, based on a chart published by Jackie Wong. I'll link to it if I can find it.

I gave 3 pts. per gold, 2 for silver and 1 for bronze, and multiplied by 3 for the top tier events and 2 for the second tier.

Nathan came in 1st, Vincent 2nd and JASON came in 3rd. Jason won a lot of medals at the third tier events

If Adam is put on the team, much as I love him, it will look like blatant favoritism, what the figure skating community needs to avoid.

I say, go with either the top 3 or bump Ross (who didn't do well) for Jason. But make it transparent and calculate the results right in front of them.

 

[QuadSal]

Breaking News Olympic Team Announced: Source

 

[synteis]

Breaking News Olympic Team Announced: Source

Not official yet but holy cow. I'm really surprised. Like others, I thought that going with the heart for the Olympics (the podium) while with the brain for Worlds (a team that included more BOW arguments) was the way to go. We'll see what the official call is (including alternates!)