2017-18 State of U.S. Men's Figure Skating

[Mrs. P]

Of course not. I also don't think I have personally trashed Jason or Max or ANY of the athletes involved in these controversial decisions. I am simply explaining why I disagree with USFS's decisions.

(I also realize that Jason and Ashley's situations are different - I only brought her up as an example of how USFS decisions do indeed send messages, and in this case, I disagree with the message that USFS is giving to Jason and Max, and the rather different message that USFS is giving to Ross and Grant.

I love Ashley, and I'm gutted we won't see her at the Olympics...but I get it, even if I don't like it. Still, the amount of hate that both she and Bradie are getting is RIDICULOUS. I tend to be more invested in the ladies than men, and somehow both Bradie and Ashley are being made out as villains by skating fans. I get it. It sucks.)

I'm more responding to the general vibe I'm seeing on here and Twitter - I do realize you're not personally. I just feel bad for the skaters all around Ross is a favorite of mine and while i was absolutely heartbroken for Jason, I was ecstatic for Ross -- if you guys remember I had put him my "want" list. And then to see one of my favorite be denied that spot and then another skater I like be trashed because that other favorite was denied even the alternate spot. It's kind of frustrating.

ETA, I'm also probably a bit spent from all the intense competition in person, so I'm sure it might be heightening the feelings I'm having right now.

 

[Globetrotter]

I don’t disagree with this and I understand why Ross’ coach is upset. I have always said, send the top three at Nats, period.

But if they’re not going to do that, both Adam and Jason come “ahead” of Ross on body of work.

Oh but they really wasted Miner's time completely. The 2nd place finisher wasn't even good enough to deserve being a 1st alternate to either Worlds or Olympics...... Bad PR move for USFS. The judging was not the issue here. It was the USFS decision making that came across as arbitrary and rigged that left such a bad taste.

 

[Lyssa]

Here are my calculations on the season 2017-2018

Men US
Score USA National + 2 best scores (Grand Prix/Challengers) = Total (Average)

1- Nathan Chen (315,23+293,79+286,51) = 895,53 (298,51)
2- Adam Rippon (268,34+ 261,99+ 266,45) = 796,78 (265,59)
3- Vincent Zhou (273,83+ 256,66+250,01) = 780,50 (260,17)

4- Jason Brown (253,68+ 261,14+259,88) = 774,70 (258,23)
5- Max Aaron (224,20+ 259,69+261,56) = 745,45 (248,48)
6- Ross Miner (274,51+219,96+233,72) = 728,19 (242,73)
7- Grant Hochstein (255,31+ 216,44+217,52) = 689,27 (229,76)
8- Alexander Johnson (232,62+226,04+218,88) = 677,54 (225,85)

 

[ice coverage]

Here are calculations on the season 2017-2018

Men US
Score USA National + 2 best scores (Grand Prix/Challengers) = Total (Average)

1- Nathan Chen (315,23+293,79+286,51) = 895,53 (298,51)
2- Adam Rippon (268,34+ 261,99+ 266,45) = 796,78 (265,59)
3- Vincent Zhou (273,83+ 256,66+250,01) = 780,50 (260,17)

4- Jason Brown (253,68+ 261,14+259,88) = 774,70 (258,23)
5- Max Aaron (224,20+ 259,69+261,56) = 745,45 (248,48)
6- Ross Miner (274,51+219,96+233,72) = 728,19 (242,73)
7- Grant Hochstein (255,31+ 216,44+217,52) = 689,27 (229,76)
8- Alexander Johnson (232,62+226,04+218,88) = 677,54 (225,85)

Calculations that you have chosen to make (for whatever reason).

But we have no reason to believe that the USFS selection committee made such calculations.

We do not know precisely how the committee arrived at its decisions.

 

[Tavi...]

Here are calculations on the season 2017-2018

Men US
Score USA National + 2 best scores (Grand Prix/Challengers) = Total (Average)

1- Nathan Chen (315,23+293,79+286,51) = 895,53 (298,51)
2- Adam Rippon (268,34+ 261,99+ 266,45) = 796,78 (265,59)
3- Vincent Zhou (273,83+ 256,66+250,01) = 780,50 (260,17)

4- Jason Brown (253,68+ 261,14+259,88) = 774,70 (258,23)
5- Max Aaron (224,20+ 259,69+261,56) = 745,45 (248,48)
6- Ross Miner (274,51+219,96+233,72) = 728,19 (242,73)
7- Grant Hochstein (255,31+ 216,44+217,52) = 689,27 (229,76)
8- Alexander Johnson (232,62+226,04+218,88) = 677,54 (225,85)

National and international scores aren’t really comparable.

 

[Ares]

Ugh...I never want to hear the term Body of Work ever again!! :curse:

I don't want too ... You just open a can of worms through that.

Even more because well ... curiously "Body Of Work" does not have a literal translation that makes sense in my language. Literal translation is Ciało Pracy - Flesh of Work You can call it dorobek though as in achievements.

 

[shmay]

He didn't hit the jumps, but did anyone else get the impression that Emmanuel Savary's skating skills and overall quality of movement have improved markedly? I hope he can keep at it for the next quadrennium because he has the potential to be sensational.

Also, there were moments in Tomoki's (very impressive) program where he didn't look like he completely hated being out there, so that's an improvement expression-wise

 

[Mrs. P]

He didn't hit the jumps, but did anyone else get the impression that Emmanuel Savary's skating skills and overall quality of movement have improved markedly? I hope he can keep at it for the next quadrennium because he has the potential to be sensational.

Also, there were moments in Tomoki's (very impressive) program where he didn't look like he completely hated being out there, so that's an improvement expression-wise

Oh I need to add Emmanuel Savary's SP to my honorable mention list. And yes, he's a beautiful lovely skater! I though he interrupted his SP music just right and he has a really nice style that is distinct from others. And I loved Tomoki's FS! Got to add that one too.

 

[concorde]

I find it interesting that last year I got slammed by this board when I voiced my objections about the "body of work" approach for Worlds. At that time, it seemed that Jason was a fan favorite and it was ok to bum the newbie. The argument was that Vincent did not have the technical scores. Maybe not at the time when selection process was made but I am confident he could have gotten them by the necessary deadlines.

Fast forward a year and the attitude towards the Body of work" approach has shifted.

I personally do not like the "body of work" approach because it is way too subjective. Everyone seems to pick out the instance that benefits the favorite.

I feel awful for Ross now just as I felt bad for Vincent last year and Mirai 4 years before that.

 

[brightphoton]

I find it interesting that last year I got slammed by this board when I voiced my objections about the "body of work" approach for Worlds. At that time, it seemed that Jason was a fan favorite and it was ok to bum the newbie. The argument was that Vincent did not have the technical scores. Maybe not at the time when selection process was made but I am confident he could have gotten them by the necessary deadlines.

Fast forward a year and the attitude towards the Body of work" approach has shifted.

I personally do not like the "body of work" approach because it is way too subjective. Everyone seems to pick out the instance that benefits the favorite.

I feel awful for Ross now just as I felt bad for Vincent last year and Mirai 4 years before that.

I never liked that argument either because the first alternate for Worlds was Vincent. If he's ineligible due to lack of minimum scores, he should be ineligible for being an alternate too.

 

[Mrs. P]

I find it interesting that last year I got slammed by this board when I voiced my objections about the "body of work" approach for Worlds. At that time, it seemed that Jason was a fan favorite and it was ok to bum the newbie. The argument was that Vincent did not have the technical scores. Maybe not at the time when selection process was made but I am confident he could have gotten them by the necessary deadlines.

Fast forward a year and the attitude towards the Body of work" approach has shifted.

I personally do not like the "body of work" approach because it is way too subjective. Everyone seems to pick out the instance that benefits the favorite.

I feel awful for Ross now just as I felt bad for Vincent last year and Mirai 4 years before that.

There were plenty of people who didn't like body of work last year either. And honestly, as a fan, I wasn't exactly on board with Jason getting Worlds, but I understood why they did that. And I'm definitely not for him getting first alternate for the Olympics (I'm OK with it for Worlds, but would have been fine if he was maybe 2nd alternate). It's almost like USFS is making up for the past -- previously Jason did not have such political pull -- he was completely not even in the picture in 2014, but then he started getting competitive scores internationally and USFS was suddenly playing catch-up. In 2016, they denied Jason's medical bye and the U.S. men lost a spot (despite valiant efforts by all three) and then turned up for some great performances at Team Challenge Cup a few months later and then doing well in his Challenger Series/GP before getting injured. Contrary to what some think, I think USFS has been following the message sent by international judges -- not the opposite.

I'm not against body of work necessarily, but it's just that nobody has any clue how the criteria is used other than what competitions are factored. I think USFS main mistake is not easing people into the change. I'm talking like press calls in the fall, walking through why each of the competitions matter, perhaps updating people on where different U.S. men stand leading up to nationals.

Nationals has been THE qualifier (whether officially/unofficially) for more than a century, USFS cannot expect to just give press/stakeholders a PDF and expect that nobody is going to question it or be confused by it. It sounded like Mark Mitchell certainly had qualms about it. And as I said earlier -- why the heck they didn't bother to explain the other selections was a bad move. It doesn't matter that the alternates are unlikely to end up at Olympics/Worlds. It still went against the order at nationals.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to say the national championship is just that -- a competition for the national title/medal and that team selection process is a separate one from that competition. But again, there needs to be a lot of explanation-- and it needs to be explicit. One measly press conference where Sam Auxilier says "body of work" will be applied over and over again is not enough.

 

[rosacotton]

*slowly raises hand* Three questions (because I am still so confused).

1. Will every year now there be a "body of work" selection for who gets sent to Worlds/Olympics no matter what the results are at Nationals?

2. Will this "body of work" process apply to who gets assigned as alternates?

3. Will the competitions that make up the criteria and how heavily they are weighed be the same from year to year, or will the criteria change?

 

[Mrs. P]

*slowly raises hand* Three questions (because I am still so confused).

1. Will every year now there be a "body of work" selection for who gets sent to Worlds/Olympics no matter what the results are at Nationals?

2. Will this "body of work" process apply to who gets assigned as alternates?

3. Will the competitions that make up the criteria and how heavily they are weighed be the same from year to year, or will the criteria change?

All good questions! Questions that should have been answered in August. Not the day of team selection.:/

I think the rail has been open. BOW will be a factor, however, how much of a factor and whether it will divert from nationals results remains to be seen.

 

[gottadance]

There were plenty of people who didn't like body of work last year either. And honestly, as a fan, I wasn't exactly on board with Jason getting Worlds, but I understood why they did that. And I'm definitely not for him getting first alternate for the Olympics (I'm OK with it for Worlds, but would have been fine if he was maybe 2nd alternate). It's almost like USFS is making up for the past -- previously Jason did not have such political pull -- he was completely not even in the picture in 2014, but then he started getting competitive scores internationally and USFS was suddenly playing catch-up. In 2016, they denied Jason's medical bye and the U.S. men lost a spot (despite valiant efforts by all three) and then turned up for some great performances at Team Challenge Cup a few months later and then doing well in his Challenger Series/GP before getting injured. Contrary to what some think, I think USFS has been following the message sent by international judges -- not the opposite.

I'm not against body of work necessarily, but it's just that nobody has any clue how the criteria is used other than what competitions are factored. I think USFS main mistake is not easing people into the change. I'm talking like press calls in the fall, walking through why each of the competitions matter, perhaps updating people on where different U.S. men stand leading up to nationals.

Nationals has been THE qualifier (whether officially/unofficially) for more than a century, USFS cannot expect to just give press/stakeholders a PDF and expect that nobody is going to question it or be confused by it. It sounded like Mark Mitchell certainly had qualms about it. And as I said earlier -- why the heck they didn't bother to explain the other selections was a bad move. It doesn't matter that the alternates are unlikely to end up at Olympics/Worlds. It still went against the order at nationals.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to say the national championship is just that -- a competition for the national title/medal and that team selection process is a separate one from that competition. But again, there needs to be a lot of explanation-- and it needs to be explicit. One measly press conference where Sam Auxilier says "body of work" will be applied over and over again is not enough.

Plain and simple the " body of work " is very important in a situation where we have only 1 or 2 spots for Worlds ( such as this year in Pairs ). The only way to get more spots is to have the skaters we send to Worlds do well , therefore the USFSA must be able to send the skater(s) who best represent the chance to place highly at Worlds. Growing the sport and acquiring sponsor dollars are very crucial right now and the only way to do both is to have good results internationally , particularly at Worlds. The year is different and , in fact, easier because we have Olympics as well as Worlds to select for. I would also like to point out that some posters here seem to think that the criteria for " body of work " are vague but in fact they are not - they are pretty specific.

 

[Mrs. P]

Plain and simple the " body of work " is very important in a situation where we have only 1 or 2 spots for Worlds ( such as this year in Pairs ). The only way to get more spots is to have the skaters we send to Worlds do well , therefore the USFSA must be able to send the skater(s) who best represent the chance to place highly at Worlds. Growing the sport and acquiring sponsor dollars are very crucial right now and the only way to do both is to have good results internationally , particularly at Worlds. The year is different and , in fact, easier because we have Olympics as well as Worlds to select for. I would also like to point out that some posters here seem to think that the criteria for " body of work " are vague but in fact they are not - they are pretty specific.

I think yes, the competitions that are factored into the decision and where they rank are specific. And I get they can't reveal every aspect of the process to the detail. But this is PR/community relations 101 -- you got to make sure that every possible question that a stakeholder/journalist has. When you are doing a major diversion to a long-standing process, you need to put in the work to make sure that everybody understands the process enough where there are no unpleasant surprises come team selection day.

USFS did a disservice by not setting up designated interviews in the months leading up to Nationals with key press stakeholders, i.e. Phil Hersh, Christine Brennen and other Olympic writers who show up -- Jere Longman, Nancy Ford, etc. Why not arrange something at a Team USA media summit or at NBC's press session?

You have to almost assume that that stakeholders/media won't understand. Even a simple -- "Nationals may be of significance for this person because XYZ" or whatever - may have been beneficial.

 

[labgoat]

Another pitfall in the BOW process is the criteria for Grand Prix finishes since Grand Prix assignments are handed out unevenly and subject to ISU and hosting countries. They are also assigned based on previous year finishes which hurts new and previously injured skaters.

 

[qwertyskates]

Wow where do i even start with this lol...
First of all I guess you should really try and start dealing with whatever internalized homophobia that’s plaguing you is getting you soooo up in arms about Adam calling himself cute and, secondly, why Adam can’t pump himself up by wanting this competition to be his “coronation” is beyond me, and god forbid he’s allowed to make a joke that’s beyond your comprehension. Now, re: your comment saying that we don’t know Ross’ performance was a fluke-you’re right we really don’t know. But do you know what the smart thing to do is? Look at what things of notable importance he has achieved recently. Now stay with me here but it you had to choose between a guy who has worked hard the past two seasons to consistently bring home trophies for the US and a guy who scarcely podiumed at all internationally but has ONE good skate who would you choose? If it’s the latter I’m afraid that’s tantamount to confessing to being a troll, my friend

Wow...when I'm critical of Adam's disingenuous public tweets to Ross it's HOMOPHOBIA.

Please show me WHERE in any of my posts lurks homophobia? :sarcasm: I don't find Adam calling himself "cute", cute. Sorry. YMMV.

If Adam is SINCERE about expressing his appreciation of Ross' silver, he can simply do it quietly and privately. He didn't have to make it public. I bet he has his phone number, being skating buddies and all like you all said. He should also not make it public that Ross thanked him in return and is "happy for him". Did he ask Ross if he would mind that he is taking Ross' replies to him to the wider audience?

Let Ross make this public statement himself if he is truly thankful to Adam and happy with the decision.

It seems his coach isn't.

I'm not the only one making the case for Ross, kindly debate the hundreds of other posts as I don't see any point in engaging those whose best defense is "you're homophobic!"

 

[evasorange]

Body Of Work= Bunch Of Wank. Seriously i never want to hear this phrase again. It's pretty clear that it means what ever the US fed wants it to mean in any given time. Honestly if I was on the committee I would have voted to put Ross on the Olympics, Vincent to worlds and Adam to both. No spots are on the line, they already have a legitimate medal contender in Nathan and It would have been great PR for them to send Ross, it's a great story to every four year fan. Guy who nobody was checking for comes out of nowhere to skate a spectacular skate wins silver against the favored ones and now gets to chase his unlikely dream at the biggest stage on the world, the Olympics!! The NBC fluff packages practically write themselves. Instead go look at any comment section on mainstream sights and people are pissed. They look at this as irrefutable proof skating isn't a legitimate competition and instead just a predetermined beauty contest. Christine Brennon sounds like she about to snap. And can you blame them? If it's hard for us die hards to comprehend, then the four year fans have no chance. Vincent will never go clean as long as he is attempting five quads. It could be a huge motivator/ lesson for him and his team if he missed the Olympics to slowdown master the basics and prove yourself at worlds before you go balls to the the walls crazy. But US fed was clearly on some bull crap and things decided before the comp even started. I hope Ross and Ashley go to 4cc and go full on Taylor Swift look what you made me do and just kill it out there. And then come for US fed kill bill style

 

[twirlingblades]

Body Of Work= Bunch Of Wank. Seriously i never want to hear this phrase again. It's pretty clear that it means what ever the US fed wants it to mean in any given time. Honestly if I was on the committee I would have voted to put Ross on the Olympics, Vincent to worlds and Adam to both. No spots are on the line, they already have a legitimate medal contender in Nathan and It would have been great PR for them to send Ross, it's a great story to every four year fan. Guy who nobody was checking for comes out of nowhere to skate a spectacular skate wins silver against the favored ones and now gets to chase his unlikely dream at the biggest stage on the world, the Olympics!! The NBC fluff packages practically write themselves. Instead go look at any comment section on mainstream sights and people are pissed. They look at this as irrefutable proof skating isn't a legitimate competition and instead just a predetermined beauty contest. Christine Brennon sounds like she about to snap. And can you blame them? If it's hard for us die hards to comprehend, then the four year fans have no chance. Vincent will never go clean as long as he is attempting five quads. It could be a huge motivator/ lesson for him and his team if he missed the Olympics to slowdown master the basics and prove yourself at worlds before you go balls to the the walls crazy. But US fed was clearly on some bull crap and things decided before the comp even started. I hope Ross and Ashley go to 4cc and go full on Taylor Swift look what you made me do and just kill it out there. And then come for US fed kill bill style [emoji48][emoji48][emoji48]

Christine Brennan also makes her career by stirring up drama, so over course she’s “about to snap”.

I’m sad for Ross but I don’t see why everyone is so surprised? USFS needs to go with the best overall team.

Ashley was only going if she made top 3 and everyone knew that. She doesn’t have the record the past 2 years to justify another team placement.

I also would’ve put Vincent on Worlds and Ross at Oly, but Vincent got silver last year and then won junior worlds, and they will reward that. If anything, it’s the alternate list that is shady towards Ross.

 

[twirlingblades]

*slowly raises hand* Three questions (because I am still so confused).

1. Will every year now there be a "body of work" selection for who gets sent to Worlds/Olympics no matter what the results are at Nationals?

2. Will this "body of work" process apply to who gets assigned as alternates?

3. Will the competitions that make up the criteria and how heavily they are weighed be the same from year to year, or will the criteria change?

1) if an upset happens. Ashley getting 4th in 2014 (paired with Polina’s skate) and both Adam and Jason bombing were upsets (paired with Ross’s skate). Ashley (2014) and Adam (2018) were/are needing on the Olympic teams and their large contributions won’t be thrown away over 1 competition.

It’s not a “body of work selection” in the way that one spot is reserved for someone not in the top. Everyone’s body of work is looked at.

2) It already does, I assume, base on Jason being named over Ross

3) Not sure. I’m assuming it will stay more or less the same, but maybe with a slightly different way of “scoring” such as a point system.