Wagner "furious" on scores

[Mathman]

As to the Nationals, I have a feeling that there were different factions among the judging panel who had different agendas. This seemed most pronounced between the calls between the Tech panel and the marks by the judges. Tech panel seemed to have disfavored Karen Chen and Vincent Zhou, while the judging panel appeared to disfavor Ashley Wagner. ...

This is quite a bizarre claim, to me. Why would the judges have an "agenda" or "factions." Why would the tech panel want Ashley to go to the Olympics but the judges want Karen? To me, it seems more reasonable that the tech panel gave a lot of URs to Karen and Vincent because the skaters under-rotated a lot of their jumps, while the judges gave them decent PCSs because they thought that the skaters demonstrated good skating skills, good choreography, etc.

 

[Mathman]

Philosophically, I believe that when you call people or systems out for manipulations, unfairness, or big-cheating, or small-cheating, it's bringing attention to something that could make others more aware of it as well. And hopefully discourages it. ...

To me, that is the puzzling part. Is Ashley claiming that she is the victim of manipulations, unfairness, big-cheating or small-cheating? In Ashley's own words, she is not complaining that she should have been placed above Karen, or that other skaters received inflated PCSs and she didn't, or that the USFSA selection committee should have put her on the Olympic team. In Ashley's own words, the only thing that she is complaining about is that she thought she skated pretty well but that she did not receive as high PCSs as she had in past events for similarly good skates.

So maybe Ashley is campaigning for greater consistency from different judging panels across the gamut of ISU and USFSA ompetitions. (?) Well, that is a worthy cause, I guess. The ISU works at it, without much success.

 

[pearly]

It is hypocritical to say that you like skaters giving honest, not-canned answers then turn around to say that you hate TSL for their honest, not-canned chatters.

Not really the same thing. Skaters talk about themselves, TSL talks about others. They are very black and white.

 

[quadrupleaxel15]

To me, that is the puzzling part. Is Ashley claiming that she is the victim of manipulations, unfairness, big-cheating or small-cheating? In Ashley's own words, she is not complaining that she should have been placed above Karen, or that other skaters received inflated PCSs and she didn't, or that the USFSA selection committee should have put her on the Olympic team. In Ashley's own words, the only thing that she is complaining about is that she thought she skated pretty well but that she did not receive as high PCSs as she had in past events for similarly good skates.

I think she absolutely thinks that she should have placed above Karen. The gap was too small so anything closer to her international PCS were enough. But she doesn't want to say that openly as far as I understand because it would be unfair to Karen who had nothing to do with the judging. She said she doesn't want to question the legitimacy of anybody's spot because it has been done to her in the past and she knows what it feels like.

 

[R.D.]

I think she absolutely thinks that she should have placed above Karen. The gap was too small so anything closer to her international PCS were enough. But she doesn't want want to say that openly as far as I understand because it would be unfair to Karen who had nothing to do with the judging. She said she doesn't want to question the legitimacy of anybody's spot because it has been done to her in the past and she knows what it feels like.

Yes, wouldn’t surprise me...that said, Wagner expressed disapproval the INSTANT her score came up, before Chen ever took the ice. She knew that in her mind, something wasn’t right...and I know many fans (both here and elsewhere) thought so too.

Whether Wagner had a legit case, I don’t know. All I know is that Chen fought like mad but the URs made it close. Could have gone either way but I don’t have a problem with the result...I can see how Wagner would be emotional about it though

 

[Jammers]

Yes, wouldn’t surprise me...that said, Wagner expressed disapproval the INSTANT her score came up, before Chen ever took the ice. She knew that in her mind, something wasn’t right...and I know many fans (both here and elsewhere) thought so too.

Whether Wagner had a legit case, I don’t know. All I know is that Chen fought like mad but the URs made it close. Could have gone either way but I don’t have a problem with the result...I can see how Wagner would be emotional about it though

I have no problem with the final standings. The 3 girls going to the Olympics were more hungry then Ashley and fought tooth and nail in their LP Ashley on the other hand choose yet again to compete as little as possible you would think after last season when she didn't make the GPF that she would compete somewhere else instead of going into Nationals the least battle tested of the top favorites.

 

[eriecold]

Again, whether she wuzrobbed or not, that is a matter of opinion. For every fan who thinks the judging was wrong, another can turn up who thinks it was correct. One thing is not disputable though. Karen has the bronze medal and Ashley the pewter, and the results are in the record books.

Personally, and watching only on television and not in the arena, I picked Karen over Ashley. I'm not crazy about Karen's consistency, but she delivered on the night. But it's not so clear that I'd have gone to battle over it. At the end of the day, I have to go with the judges' decision - as it is the only one that matters.

I love Karen, but to say that she "delivered" is a huge overstatement. Let's just say that she stayed on her feet and she poured her heart. She won't get those PCS at the olympics if she keeps that massive amount of URs

 

[chuckm]

Karen was sick at Nationals. She tried her best to rotate her jumps but wasn't strong enough to get them all the way around. But her fighting spirit showed throughout her freeskate, nevertheless.

Ashley seems too committed to her DD (don't do) list for her own good. Her DD list includes summer comps, pre-GP events (with the exception of Japan Open, which pays big $$) Challenge events, and 4CC. In effect, if she doesn't happen do well in the GP, her BOW is a minus for the season.

 

[TontoK]

The fact is that Ashley should have been the bronze medalist. She is absolutely correct that the judges manipulated the scores to keep her behind Karen. I took a look at the PCS scores that the ISU judges gave to the top four ladies from Nationals at their most recent Grand Prix events. I added their PCS scores for the short and long to simplify my analysis. I thought I would find that Bradie and Mirai's scores were the most inflated, but it turned out to be Karen who received the biggest gift from the judges. Her PCS scores increased by 11.4%. Ashley's Nationals Bonus was zero.


Bradie (SAm) 93.79 (Nationals) 102.62 +8.21 9.4%
Mirai (NHK) 93.81 (Nationals) 98.61 +4.80 5.1%
Karen (SAm) 92.82 (Nationals)103.38 +10.56 11.4%
Ashley (SC) 100.97 (Nationals) 100.94 -0.03 0%

I can see your point. But, in counterpoint, one could say that Ashley got "beginning of season" PCS for a program that might be viewed as "beginning of season" quality, because she'd been working on it for about a month.

Isn't it pretty typical that programs get lower PCS in the beginning of a season, and then as the season progresses... skaters refine movements and performance, become more secure through practice miles, make adjustments based on feedback... the PCS increases?

It's plausible to assume that in the run-up to Nationals, the other skaters were polishing familiar programs, while Ashley was preparing a debut on a rushed timetable?

It was a tough call, and someone had to come out on the losing end.

 

[Joubabe]

I agree that PCS scores tend to increase as the season progresses. But by over 10 points in Karen's case for a program riddled with errors and skated while she was sick?

And what about Ashley's short program? That didn't need polishing, she's skated it many times. And for those that complain it was an old program, well both of Karen's programs were reused from last season.

 

[NAOTMAA]

I agree that PCS scores tend to increase as the season progresses. But by over 10 points in Karen's case for a program riddled with errors and skated while she was sick?

And what about Ashley's short program? That didn't need polishing, she's skated it many times. And for those that complain it was an old program, well both of Karen's programs were reused from last season.

Well it was easily Karen's best of the season. Yeah it was pretty bad but considering the fact that she was completely horrendous (even the biggest Karen fan is incapable of defending her performances this season) in pretty much everything all season long 10 points higher when you consider her best skate, plus nationals inflation, plus the USFSA liking her it ain't so bad


As for Ashley getting criticized for reusing programs and not Karen I suppose it comes down to the fact that Karen is going to the Olympics and worlds and Ashley isn't. So they got to find a reason why she failed. Had it been the other way around people would have been going crazy criticizing Karen for her program merry go round routine this season

 

[Joubabe]

Am I the only one who's upset that "Nationals Inflation" is used selectively to manipulate results? I understand that PCS are subjective, but gifting one skater a huge inflation while holding another skater down to get a desired result crosses the line for me. This is the reason I chose not to attend Nationals in an Olympic year. At least I didn't spend thousands of dollars to get this upset!

 

[Lipea]

All I know is that Chen fought like mad but the URs made it close.

Personally, and watching only on television and not in the arena, I picked Karen over Ashley. I'm not crazy about Karen's consistency, but she delivered on the night.

The 3 girls going to the Olympics were more hungry then Ashley and fought tooth and nail in their LP Ashley on the other hand choose yet again to compete as little as possible

Did you guys even watch the competition? If anything, Karen "delivered" a very mediocre performance. In Russia it would be second to the last place. Technically with many mistakes, performance-wise very flat, old programs. 127pts at the Nationals with 10% inflation in components, =121 at the international competition at the highest. This is a joke score by this season standards, esp. for OG. While Ashley got her 130 fair and square, less than she would have got for that performance internationally, and, btw, with a new program, which she would polish more with few more weeks.

Both Askey and Karen would not medal at the Olympics anyway

Ashley's chances were not too bad. The chances for her to prepare and deliver her Boston-level performance are the same as Osmond's chances to deliver Helsinki performance, and more possible than for Karo to get back 3lutz and 7triples in FS. Sotskova throughout her career has never been strong at the second half of the season. I'd say then Ashley's chances for bronze would be about the same as Bradie's, which I consider is quite possible.

I just don’t think Karen is internationally consistent enough. On the senior international circuit, she’s only had ONE good competition, which was worlds, which she made 2 mistakes in still!

Exactly

Am I the only one who's upset that "Nationals Inflation" is used selectively to manipulate results? I understand that PCS are subjective, but gifting one skater a huge inflation while holding another skater down to get a desired result crosses the line for me.

The most ridiculous part, is that unlike Russians or Canadians, USFed held down its most successul and consistent skater. Makes no sense to me. That's why I think that there must be something more personal there we simply don't know about.

 

[fenway3]

Jenny had a chip on her shoulder and it was never as bad as she tried to portray it to be.

How exactly do you know this???

Also, this was almost 10 years ago and the competitive environment has changed alot. They all may not be best friends, but they are friendly, most get along well and are supportive of each other in US/Canada at least.

What would account for such a "change" in 10 short years??

 

[fenway3]

I also don't like scripted canned PR responses, but there is a middle ground. I don't think most skaters are being dishonest just because they think before they speak and don't throw temper tantrums.

Agreed. Some folks seem to think that anything less than 100% brutal honesty is somehow being "dishonest." But what's acceptable to say in front of a camera and what's acceptable to say in the privacy of your living room are not necessarily one and the same.

 

[fenway3]

Philosophically, I believe that when you call people or systems out for manipulations, unfairness, or big-cheating, or small-cheating, it's bringing attention to something that could make others more aware of it as well. And hopefully discourages it.

I agree with this. But the problem is that, so often, the athlete leveling criticism at others is not really objective. In general, it's very difficult for people to see events that happen to them—especially negative ones—objectively. Just because you think you were treated unfairly, that doesn't necessarily make it fact.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

What would account for such a "change" in 10 short years??

The people and quality of the sport now.

 

[Amei]

The most ridiculous part, is that unlike Russians or Canadians, USFed held down its most successul and consistent skater. Makes no sense to me. That's why I think that there must be something more personal there we simply don't know about.

I don't understand people talking about how someone should be given a spot on the Olympic team for their past achievements (especially when said achievements aren't exactly amazing), that's how Russia ended up having no competitor in the men's competition at the Olympics in their own country.

At the end of the day if every single 1 of the top 4 finishers from US nationals skated their absolute best performance the only 1 that might podium is Mirai and that's because of the triple axel, otherwise it's a top 10 finishes.

 

[Matt K]

This just sounds like angry, unhinged, whining.

Yawn.

 

[artsciboy]

I can see your point. But, in counterpoint, one could say that Ashley got "beginning of season" PCS for a program that might be viewed as "beginning of season" quality, because she'd been working on it for about a month.

Isn't it pretty typical that programs get lower PCS in the beginning of a season, and then as the season progresses... skaters refine movements and performance, become more secure through practice miles, make adjustments based on feedback... the PCS increases?

It's plausible to assume that in the run-up to Nationals, the other skaters were polishing familiar programs, while Ashley was preparing a debut on a rushed timetable?

It was a tough call, and someone had to come out on the losing end.

Unfortunately that argument doesn't work for the SP. Ashley knew the fix was in in terms of her PCS after the SP marks came up. It was ridiculous.