Nathan Chen

[cchen24]

To me you are talking about strategy/approach rather than foundation. Strategy can simply be changed if they make up their mind to do so. Foundation is something totally different. I'm not sure why you think it's too late for him to change his strategy, that is, to stop doing a different layout each time.

I remember an interview when Frank Carrol talked about how it was like when he first took on Michelle Kwan.
He said, she was all jumps and had no clue about training.
He had to teach her how to go about her daily practice, and set strict rules on when a jump can be incorporated into a program, etc.

You can call it an approach. I view these as the foundation to success.

Why I think it may be too late for Nathan to learn all these?
It is because it is always easier to teach a younger kid. I am not saying it is impossible, but it is just so much more difficult for an 18 y/o than a 13 y/o to change.

 

[1111bm]

It certainly wasn't Raf's decision to change layouts at 6 am day of, now was it?

for this question, the short answer is: yes it is Nathan's own decision to change Layout,
but have NO fix layout in daily practices is also a fact and has been allowed by Raf as a coach.

Agreed, I was gonna post the same thing.

Assuming, that this whole "never setting on a fixed jump layout" has in fact been their MO for this whole past season (and I believe past ones too), one could even say that Raf, in a way, brought this on himself. By generally encouraging (or at the very least condoning) frequent layout changes, Raf no doubt fostered this nonchalant approach in Nathan, and know it came back to bite him. So his complaining about it doesn't seem fair to me.

And as @yyyskate says, it still means that both, Nathan and Raf, principally don't believe in a fixed layout (or so it seems).

 

[sheetz]

I do think one of the reasons for the changing layouts is that Nathan is still developing his arsenal of jumps. It's not uncommon to see layout changes with skaters as they acquire new jumps. For instance, Vincent and Shoma both successfully added new quads mid-season as they became more proficient with the jumps. Someone like Michelle got all her triples by the time she was 14 and so never had to tweak her layout much.

For Nathan, I believe trying to add the 4lo was a mistake. It seemed to take away from the consistency of his other jumps and he never needed it to score big.

 

[yyyskate]

@1111bm from Phil's article, Raf seems proud of that not just encouraging or condoning. It seems to me when it is a big win like Nationals/COR, there is a way/tone Raf will talk to media and behave on K&C, when it is a mix result SA (win but disaster FS), Raf has another way, when it is a failure OG, Raf has yet a third way...

What will Brain Orser do to Yuzuru/Javi in different situations, what will Shoma's coach do to Shoma. what will Kori do to Jason Brown.

 

[yyyskate]

@sheetz agreed, but both Vincent and Shoma are managed more successfully than Nathan (actually MUCH MORE) Shoma got olympic silver medal, Vincent is a triumph in his US nationals and OG, yet Nathan...
When asked Vincent, since he seems have trouble with 5 quad lay-out at the beginning of season, will he consider change the 4T into easier jump, the answer is a definitive "never"

 

[yyyskate]

I do think one of the reasons for the changing layouts is that Nathan is still developing his arsenal of jumps. It's not uncommon to see layout changes with skaters as they acquire new jumps. For instance, Vincent and Shoma both successfully added new quads mid-season as they became more proficient with the jumps. Someone like Michelle got all her triples by the time she was 14 and so never had to tweak her layout much.

For Nathan, I believe trying to add the 4lo was a mistake. It seemed to take away from the consistency of his other jumps and he never needed it to score big.

another indication of lack of experience in making the correct estimation, evaluation or strategy towards the highest competition stage.

 

[yyyskate]

but the 4loop did scared Yuzuru into injury tho (scared thus practice 4Lutz cause injury)

anyways, my suggestion/hope to Nathan reminds the same throughout the thread. Only simple one goal is to improve figure skating in all aspect, fulfill his potential perhaps even beyond. that is the big picture.

 

[lappo]

I remember an interview when Frank Carrol talked about how it was like when he first took on Michelle Kwan.
He said, she was all jumps and had no clue about training.
He had to teach her how to go about her daily practice, and set strict rules on when a jump can be incorporated into a program, etc.

You can call it an approach. I view these as the foundation to success.

Why I think it may be too late for Nathan to learn all these?
It is because it is always easier to teach a younger kid. I am not saying it is impossible, but it is just so much more difficult for an 18 y/o than a 13 y/o to change.

Difficult but certainly not impossible. See 2 time World Medalist and OBM Javier Fernandez for reference. I think ultimately it is Nathan choice if he wants to change his current approach or not.

 

[cchen24]

I do think one of the reasons for the changing layouts is that Nathan is still developing his arsenal of jumps. It's not uncommon to see layout changes with skaters as they acquire new jumps. For instance, Vincent and Shoma both successfully added new quads mid-season as they became more proficient with the jumps. Someone like Michelle got all her triples by the time she was 14 and so never had to tweak her layout much.

For Nathan, I believe trying to add the 4lo was a mistake. It seemed to take away from the consistency of his other jumps and he never needed it to score big.

Nathan did attempt 4L two times before CoR. But he quickly took it out of his LP when GP series began.

Adding new quads in his programs is really not the issue.
Right at his return from injury (fall of 2016), he immediately added 4Z 4F into his programs.
Thus, he constantly does 4 kinds of quads since then, 4Z 4F 4S 4T.

It is really not about introducing new quads. It is about the jump layout and the number of quads of his LP.
4 quads, 5 quads, or 6 quads? and in what order?

If he goes to the Worlds, does anyone have any idea how many quads he would attempt and in what order?
It just keeps changing all season long, and no one has a clue.

 

[1111bm]

If he goes to the Worlds, does anyone have any idea how many quads he would attempt and in what order?
It just keeps changing all season long, and no one has a clue.

I can already hear him say in interviews pre-competetion, that he's going to decide this based on how he feels that given day and (for the FS) depending on how the SP went...

And I can also already imagine the reaction this will get in this thread...

 

[cchen24]

Difficult but certainly not impossible. See 2 time World Medalist and OBM Javier Fernandez for reference. I think ultimately it is Nathan choice if he wants to change his current approach or not.

There is big difference. When Javier went to Brian Orser (2010), he was not a very well established skater yet.
It is just so much easier to teach someone at that stage of the career.

The key is that Nathan has to realize that he is doing this too differently from all the top skaters.
If he finds nothing wrong about this, why would he change anything?

I have observed him doing this for two seasons. At first, I was amazed by his capabilities of doing a different layout every time he competes. But fairly quickly, I realize that this is why his programs rarely look complete/polished to me. His team does not allow his programs to grow.

 

[lappo]

There is big difference. When Javier went to Brian Orser (2010), he was not a very well established skater yet.
It is just so much easier to teach someone at that stage of the career.

The key is that Nathan has to realize that he is doing this too differently from all the top skaters.
If he finds nothing wrong about this, why would he change anything?

I have observed him doing this for two seasons. At first, I was amazed by his capabilities of doing a different layout every time he competes. But fairly quickly, I realize that this is why his programs rarely look complete/polished to me. His team does not allow his programs to grow.

I agree on this and I hope that the Olympics may have been an eye opener for him. I think that the rush we have seen in the past two years was in part due to the desire to get the OGM and be done with it. He figured that the quads would have made the deal because he felt there was no time to have a more gradual PCS rise. So he embarked in the quad route, mastered all the jumps, media went crazy and jumped on him adding pressure, family seems to have a lot of influence, coach seems to have little to none and this led him to make mistakes in the planning of the season. If he sticks for four more years, I hope he will realise this (I think it's easier for us to say but we don't know at all how he himself feels and what goals he is willing to settle for himself in the future).

 

[sheetz]

Nathan did attempt 4L two times before CoR. But he quickly took it out of his LP when GP series began.

Adding new quads in his programs is really not the issue.
Right at his return from injury (fall of 2016), he immediately added 4Z 4F into his programs.
Thus, he constantly does 4 kinds of quads since then, 4Z 4F 4S 4T.

Last season his plan was always for 5 quads, and he attempted that at both Finlandia and TdF. However he lost his consistency with 4S (likely due to adding both the 4Z and 4F and spending time away from Raf) and so dropped it at both NHK and GPF. He then went back to 5 for Nationals and 4CC. The only time he attempted 6 was Worlds.

This season he's been going for 5 quads pretty consistently but because of the inconsistency with the 4Lo he had to change his Rostelecom layout. Since then I think it's been mostly the same, except for changes due to popping his 4S in which case he would throw in an extra 4T. The changes in layout since Nationals were largely due to injury. So while it looks like he just randomly changes layouts I do think there were at least a few underlying reasons for them.

 

[yyyskate]

one word, I do NOT think we should blame Nathan alone and assuming that he is a disobedient, arrogant student. He has his own opinions like a young adult, not all of them are wrong or ridiculous, a good coaching relationship should have effective communication (should not be one-way obey the coaches as well). I do not think Nathan is so ignorant as to not listen to anyone. Instead, I think Nathan is a very intelligent and humble young man.

Nathan needs some love.

 

[Kelly]

To me, Nathan crumbled in the SP and so lost any individual medal hope at the Olympics is more about that he didn't
take Rafael's layout for him on that day besides any other mental issues Nathan himself said in the recent interviews.
That's why Nathan apologized after the FS to Rafael for the SP.

If Nathan could have at least repeated what he did at Nationals, who knows that's enough for a medal?

 

[yyyskate]

That is a mistake, Nathan not only apologized to Raf, he also apologized on TV that he should not be timid thus swapped the 4F to 4T on the fly. Means that he takes responsibility for his own mistake.
Nathan did the easier lay-out at TE (as Raf instructed) and bombed also, so mostly it is still mental, Nathan is not mentally particularly prepared.

the better mental preparation should be , Team Nathan let him know that, he only need a solid SP, his chance is in the FS (due to huge BV difference), thus be comfortable with just a good enough skate.

EDIT: also, if like Raf said due to Nathan's injury, he did not suggest to do 4F and 4LZ, why Nathan is stilling training 4LZ as solo jump in the second half after US nationals, why they still trained 6 quads free lay-out after US nationals.

 

[yyyskate]

as for coach change option.
I think I am just gonna go ahead to say it out loud, it may hurt some fans here for personal biases or emotions.
ultimately, you need a coach that can effectively help you in your figure skating weakness.
so, as many already know in their heart,
Team Brain Orser it the best choice, their strength, 3A technique(edge jumps), SS/stroking class, Choreography strength, whole package polish strength is exactly what Nathan lacks in his figure skating.

The obstacle might be some paper work and how to manage Nathan's college education. I think a couple of top male skaters may retire from Team BO, and Nathan really is a once in a generation talent (young and upward trajectory) and he is humble and a nice guy, there is no reason that any other coach would not want him

 

[SkatingMusic]

I sure hope Nathan can find a coach like Orser (or someone else) who can enable him to realize his full potential. To use an analogy in the business world, Raf has great technical skills but he is not a good people manager or a strong leader. Great coaches are always great leaders.

 

[sheetz]

But I also think skaters need stability. Nathan grew up using the Misshin/Russian jumping technique so he should stick to that. Instead I'd like Raf to bring in a few more specialists to round out his team. Mainly a SS coach, I think. I don't know who's the best SS coach in the US.

 

[Ophelia]

Orser would probably ask Hanyu for input on taking Chen (he did same for Fernandez with Hanyu) and I don't think the chances are high. There would be personality clashes and end in disaster.