Karen got URs and - GOE on all 4 of her 3-3 attempts in 2016 NHK and COC...so what you said is false. She has never gotten a +2 average GOE (1.4) on her 3-3, and she has only gotten full credit for the combo twice in more than 30 attempts internationally. I will agree Karen has marginally better components than Bradie and Mirai, but does not compare well to the top tier of skaters, her skating is very fragmented and she doesn't have great flow--I'm not talking about her jumps. I don't know who you are saying she deserves the same PCS as but she doesn't have the Skating Skills of Kostner or the flow of Medvedeva or the power of Katelyn. Maybe she would have scored a 74 if she went clean and perfect, but that happens once in a blue moon. She hasn't had a remotely clean program of any sort this season, and the number of clean programs she's had in her entire career can be counted on one hand.
That was the worst SP ever for US women (OG)
- Thread starter Tolstoj
- Start date
Karen got URs and - GOE on all 4 of her 3-3 attempts in 2016 NHK and COC...so what you said is false. She has never gotten a +2 average GOE (1.4) on her 3-3, and she has only gotten full credit for the combo twice in more than 30 attempts internationally. I will agree Karen has marginally better components than Bradie and Mirai, but does not compare well to the top tier of skaters, her skating is very fragmented and she doesn't have great flow--I'm not talking about her jumps. I don't know who you are saying she deserves the same PCS as but she doesn't have the Skating Skills of Kostner or the flow of Medvedeva or the power of Katelyn. Maybe she would have scored a 74 if she went clean and perfect, but that happens once in a blue moon. She hasn't had a remotely clean program of any sort this season, and the number of clean programs she's had in her entire career can be counted on one hand.
I disagree on “noticeably worse,” but I bolded that second sentence because that’s very much missing from most analyses of the current state of skating. I could tl;dr on why advantages like those the US women enjoyed through its “peak” in women’s skating were unlikely to last and matched by weaknesses elsewhere, but I’m going to try to save my teal deer for only one thread.[emoji23]
The US was very good at finding and training high-level skaters for a long time, which was part of its competitive lead. I wasn’t a fan of Sarah Hughes, but when someone of her caliber is the B-Team of the Olympic squad, you’re ahead of the game. But that’s exactly the kind of advantage that is comparatively easy for other nations to reduce or eliminate — or to squander by complacency. This happens all the time in various sports and competitive activities: there’s someone who starts out on another level, but as others learn the nuances of the (meta)game, their edge over the entire field dramatically narrows.
Arguably, the US squandered the talent it did have, which was an unforced error and helped accelerate the “decline” narrative. Weir was arguably a better skater than Lysacek and certainly did more to boost the sport’s profile — especially in the key age range (young people). I remember Weir blowing up the internet before Twitter was a part of daily life and the 40+ demo knew GIF was pronounced with a hard “g.” I don’t like Weir as a commentator, but as a skater, he was treated as though he was devoid of any technical skill, never practiced, etc., and that still stings.
Cohen was caught in the scoring transition, and also trapped by bad media narratives (inconsistent, crazy/drama queen, “back to the coach she fired — only Sasha!”). After Kwan, whose personality was pitched as calm and serene (and whose programs reinforced that), Sasha was perfect as the “crazy” one, right down to the name. She and Weir were defined almost exclusively by their personalities, not their skills, which may have been good for the media but told anyone watching nothing about skating — except, in the case of Cohen, that flexibility is good? What a waste.
Meissner... I knew of her in 2000, actually, as a friend of mine skates. Another skater who makes me wonder what might have been: what if she’d been born just a bit later and/or spiral sequences weren’t as important to the US audience? What if she’d had a better “narrative”? Despite being an incomplete skater (her spin positions are ... awkward, spirals have bad edging, etc.), I think she’s undervalued in comparison to the next wave, especially on the technical side, where she really did show that she understood what was coming. But she wasn’t a “pretty” skater, and that’s not marketable.
And then Mao Asada and Yuna Kim showed up, and it was clear they came to play. At this point, the US could have changed course and started correcting for its errors, but it didn’t.
I was completely tuned out by the time of Gold and Wagner, and leaving aside the eating disorder issues (I’m a recovered anoretic — I’m well out of the woods after a decade of crazy, so here’s hoping Gold can make it fully into recovery as well), Gold... whatever her skills, I cannot think of a skater more trapped in the 6.0 system in terms of choreo, costume, music, etc. She was shoved into the Ice Princess box and then they taped the lid shut. And I doubt it helped her competitive chances. You had Yuna with her Bond short, Mao being her gothic badass self, the rise of Eteri’s girls... and Gold. I’m not knocking her, as I think she was one of the better skaters the US has produced, but between overinflated expectations, her surname, and an inability by Carroll to see the difference between “classic beauty” and “antiquated,” she suffered.
Wagner was also overhyped going into Sochi, didn’t get credit for what she actually did well (choreo, musical interpretation — her programs were stunning in that aspect), and was an easy villain/foil to Gold. Even when she has a compelling point or is on the right side of an argument, she’s built up enough ill will that no one is going to listen to her. (Meanwhile, throughout this: US men — worth remembering that as one side falls, the other begins to rise....)
Which brings us to now. Hughes was the last gold medalist, but is considered a one-hit wonder who came back “fat.” Meissner: also a one-off, allegedly. Cohen was the last to capture hearts, minds, and attention despite being dinged as inconsistent and “quirky.” Nagasu, Chen, and Terrell have fans here, but Nagasu has the 3A legacy... watching NBC hype them and then their actual performances, you really can’t blame the average viewer for feeling lied to, let alone having trouble recruiting new talent. Especially when the USFS is fine leaving its top senior women without coaches or Chen with an ineffective one.
Happened to Chen before his short, with parents changing the layout. There’s also the money issue; you need to be Kerrigan/Nathan Chen and be making money before you win if you want to have a chance at success.
For the women, though, I think there’s another factor: change in the perception of athleticism versus art, body size, feminism in general. And by that I mean whatever you think of Harding, much of the “fat,” “ugly,” “white trash” criticism comes off very differently now than it did when she landed the 3A, and even documentaries like The Price of Gold from ESPN (which leans relatively heavily on the conclusion that she was probably involved, though without explicitly saying so) spends a great deal of time solidly unpacking the absolutely disgusting BS she went through, giving her due credit (including from male skaters) on the 3A, etc. And that’s where Gold really got hit hard in her programs and packaging — the sport was already moving away from that fragile ice princess mythos, because who wants to compete in a sport that mandates you develop an eating disorder, hate yourself for going through puberty, and force yourself into an outdated conception of femininity? Nagasu is actually a great ambassador for the sport, as she’s not a teen, she made her mark athletically while being more well-rounded than Harding and Meissner, and she doesn’t try to play a role she doesn’t fit.
As a non-Anglo who hit puberty super early (eight years old kind of early; I was 5 feet by the time I was nine, with adult proportions... so much for ballet [emoji23]), figure skating was never a world I’d be welcome in, never mind the fact that I FEAR THE ICE. But as a dancer and an athlete... I can see my younger self wanting to be Nagasu. Because she doesn’t do the full face of makeup. Because she’s not trying to be a princess. She has her own issues as a skater, but she’s at least part of the modern era.
Thank you for replying to my post.
I agree with a lot of what you say. You mention Weir and I agree he had more talent than Lysacek but wasn't treated too well by the USFSA generally because he was outspoken, flamobyant ... and gay. He didn't fit their narrative too well. I also believe he was his own worst enemy. Remember his reality show around the time of Vancouver 2010? I remember thinking that it was going to be a distraction and I also think the fault there lies in more than one place. But, your point is well taken. There are a lot of squandered opportunities.
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2013
I meant straight +2's across the board (or close to it), not like a couple of them as was the case of Worlds or US Nats. And 2016 CoC? 2016 NHK? What are you talking about? She didn't get any +2's or even +1's for her 3-3 combos -- which were all UR in those competitions (cue the usual, "But that's not how she should have been assessed...".
http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1617/gpchn2016/gpchn2016_Ladies_SP_Scores.pdf
http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1617/gpchn2016/gpchn2016_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf
http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1617/gpjpn2016/gpjpn2016_Ladies_SP_Scores.pdf
http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1617/gpjpn2016/gpjpn2016_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf
Home girl wasn't gonna get +2's across the board any time soon, and as we saw in Pyeongchang, she didn't even go for a 3-3 at all. She's got a lot of regrouping to do before Worlds if she's going to actually place high enough to help the US maintain 3 spots, as she - quite admirably - did last year.
- Joined
- Sep 14, 2008
She got 6/9 +2's at that competition, but keep trying it.
She certainly was, if she had delivered. Note how her opening Lutz in the LP received +GOE even without being strictly clean. Judges are getting more aware about rewarding her perfect takeoff technique and amplitude. According to you it was also impossible for Sakamoto to score what she did, but feel free to keep proving yourself wrong with all of the claims you make. We do enjoy seeing arguments that are clearly engineered with the sole purpose of propping up a Canadian competitor or trying to devalue a Canadian opponent.
The calls were wrong. Next.
Totally disagree. Her skating has very good flow at its best and she hits deeper edges than Medvedeva. Perhaps not quite as much speed as Osmond, but superior choreography. Her amazing spiral is an important skill that needs to be given credit and her spins are better as well.
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2018
Thank you for the compliment! [emoji4] No, I agree that of the post-Cohen wave, Gold was easily the most complete talent the US found. My only issue with her was how dated she looked in comparison to her peers (and emblematic of the US being stuck in the 6.0 era; arguably, Gold overperformed relative to what the US prepared her for), but I admit that may very well be hindsight bias; I also always struggled with Gold because she was essentially the personification of anorexia and it was obvious throughout her career. (It’s not exactly a surprise when a skater says they have or had an eating disorder, but Gold’s was especially obvious in a way that made it difficult to want her to keep skating — and combined with the pre-pubescent ice princess look, I honestly wanted her to take some time, decide what was best for herself, and be herself. If that meant going ice princess, so be it, but everything about Gold is complicated and I, personally, felt like it was abetting someone’s self-destruction to cheer for her and to encourage her to keep skating.)
Also, I’m a girl. Don’t know if being five feet tall so young would be such an issue in ballet for the guys, but when you’re a girl... and you’re also sporting a cup size that puts you well past training bra stage... oh, the awkward and the wish the floor would open up and eat you. [emoji36]
He technically wasn’t out until after he stopped competing, if I recall correctly, but it wasn’t like he was trying to play into a heteronormative view of masculinity either. And I recall Lysacek making some unkind comments in that respect, though someone correct me if I’m wrong. Either way, listening to the NBC commentary on his 2010 OWG programs is... jarring.
You know, not being able to watch TV is sometimes a blessing; I had actually somewhat managed to bury the memory of that reality TV thing. (I have some “probable autoimmune, or maybe you were just botched by genetics, who knows” thing; my blood pressure is a robust 60/40 or “you should be unconscious” despite a whole medication cocktail... big screens are not my friend. I do everything off a smart phone... watching the games live the past week or so has been enjoyable but really draining.) Weir definitely had his own self-destructive tendencies, and I actually got sick of him (because he became such a GIF magnet for non-figure skating fans and was just everywhere in the run-up to Vancouver), but when I rewatched some of his old programs recently, I was surprised by what I had forgotten. But I think he had to have known he was never going to be allowed to succeed; the look on his face when quieting the crowd as they erupt in outrage after he’s put in fifth place is pretty revealing.
I think the USFS really short itself in the foot with how they handled Weir, however, as they pretty much told any future queer skaters: “We don’t want you, no matter how good you are, and you won’t ever get the scores you deserve.” I... am sort of amazed they managed to blow it that hard when the US actually had a male skater with that much name ID, who did exhibition skates to modern music, etc., and really, America is its own enemy.
Few more general thoughts on the women:
1. Orser is a great coach, but he’s also very wisely and carefully built a training group with skaters of various ages, skill levels, etc., so there is mentoring from the more advanced skaters, as well as experience being passed down. I don’t think Orser is the answer to everyone’s problems and/or should be everyone’s coach, but that’s obviously a model the US should be trying to copy.
2. ... but I don’t think the US will, in part because the US is too damn big and skating is expensive, and it’s not really a cultural norm here for skaters and/or their families to move, whereas our international competitors have no problem changing hemispheres and crossing language barriers. Admittedly, it’s a poor investment, unless you’re being sponsored before you win; when one injury can ruin a season (especially an Olympic season), it’s not really fiscally sound for a family to move just to train in the hope that their child will actually succeed. Which means USFS needs to step in and step up or we need to just accept that our national ethos is not going to produce Zagitovas and that’s okay.
3. The idea that you can be a normal student and also a high level skater needs to die. This ties into 2, as a lot of parents would naturally balk at the idea of taking a teenager off the college track, and the same qualities that make someone a competitive athlete tend to show up in competitive students, but let’s be realistic: you have to chose. Especially considering the genetic factors for anorexia line up with overachievers as well. (Genetics won’t make you an anoretic, but the difference between people who try to copy anorexia as a fad diet and actual anoretics is whether you have the genes.)
4. USFS needs to stop treating its female skaters as disposable. I can’t think of a single reason to be part of the US team, as you’ll either be overhyped and fail to deliver or, should you manage to win a title of any meaning, shoved out because it was obviously a fluke. The number of women skating for other countries who had US ties was just depressing, but who can blame them? You’re either on their good side or you’re not, and if you’re not, it’s over. Even if you are, it’s hopeless.
As an American, it's disappointing to see the US, a country that was responsible for producing skating legends, currently going nowhere in this sport. You'd think after Michelle Kwan, there would be hundreds of young girls heading to the closest ice rink and becoming skaters. Just look at what happened after Yuna Kim retired, it's 2018 and they got so many talented skaters (even better than the current American skaters). At this rate, no American skater will catch up to Russia or Japan in Ladies figure skating.
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2007
What I don't understand is that we have far fewer ice dancers training than we do ladies, yet are an ice dance powerhouse. So apparently it isn't all about the numbers.
And Michelle quit skating competitively in what, 2005? Young skaters starting out today are not likely to know who she is.
And Michelle quit skating competitively in what, 2005? Young skaters starting out today are not likely to know who she is.
- Joined
- Jan 12, 2014
We have better coaching talent taking care of the ice dancers (Marina, Igor, Marie). USFS should be encouraging its stars to go to top coaches in canada and russia. Ravi, Orser, etc
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2007
OK, but others have been saying young girls have not been wanting to be figure skaters due to various factors (other sports such as X games, not seeing skating on TV, etc). I hope USFS will be paying for its stars to go to top coaches in Russia. That cannot be cheap.
I’ve read the same thing: that young kids are interested in other sports, but then I look at ice dancing. The last decade is the best it has ever been. And the program is getting stronger. So- it doesn’t seem like lack of interest is a primary driver- though I buy it as a factor. And US men are generally in better shape than women. Nathan Chen and Vincent Zhou should do well off the top of my head.
Ice dancing does seem to be benefitting from awesome coaching though. Maybe that’s something to be looked at.
At least the US has finally adapted to international standards. I just don’t get why it took so long. Seems like such a logical thing to do.
I do think the mental strength of the ladies might be something though- just judging by the interviews and missteps in the individual.
You don't need to send them in Russia, just go to Svetlana Panova, she works at Raf's rink with Raf's wife and others from his team.
These are her current students
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DX_9dPMtPa0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlERz1Q-uHk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NweFYUEdao
Maria Sotskova (now at CSKA) and Anastasia Tarakanova (now with Eteri) learned the technique from her.
- Joined
- Dec 13, 2016
Jin Boyang skated his best at 4CC this year.
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2018
Hanyu was less than a point (0.94) off tying his own personal best and the world record in the short program at the OWG. Aliev also deserves a mention for the short; he just missed 100 but hit a new PB. Chen now has the fifth highest scoring free program, despite it being imperfect and whatever I personally think of the scoring. And so on.
Not sure what you mean by “never skate their best” — both men’s and women’s had injuries in the top contenders, but both set various records at the games. If you mean not clean ... I’d argue that’s more an issue on the men’s side and could be fixed by changing PCS factoring in the free skate, but that’s a separate topic. The women have a different set of issues to grapple with, due to where the min-maxing comes in under current rules and the state of the field, but I thought Zagitova’s performance of her short program was far and away her best to date.
Regardless, the Olympics may not have been the “best” skates for some of the men, especially the top ones, but that’s also a tall order. And given the numbers some of them have already posted, asking them to tie or beat those at the Olympics is a big ask. (Though if Hanyu hadn’t been downgraded on that final spin, he would have been less than half a point off the WR.)
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2017
And he improved the SP at the Olys!
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2018
criminally underscored in PE and IE [emoji36][emoji36][emoji36]
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2017
I agree with IN. Apart from his upper body not having enough volume in the StSq, that style suits him so well. He needs to take Hip-Hop and Jazz, but before that, at least give him some credit!
Performance was alright. Needs to start emoting a little more.
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2018
That was actually the most emotion Boyang had ever gotten out of me, and something about the performance felt more “alive” than his prior efforts. It was the first time I felt he was commanding the music instead of being swallowed by it, though numerically his marks for PE are fair. Comparatively, they make zero sense. If Chen was a 7.75 at worst, how is Boyang an 8.0? Eternal mysteries of the judges’ minds.
Jazz would be a good fit for him, not sure about hip hop, as that might exacerbate some issues rather than ameliorate them. I’ve done both (hip hop later in life, which was probably my strongest genre, and the tap-jazz-ballet trifecta in childhood). Even in American dance schools, Asian hip hop students tend to have difficulty with the more relaxed posture of hip hop and the flow of the routines, which leads to a dance version of the “jumping robot” problem, and you’ll often see “balletic-hop” as well. (I have some of this as well, particularly when I started hip hop — thumbs always subconsciously tucked, extensions, sacrificing flow for perfect form — but I learned to let go. I was the only person who could actually get hang time on the jumps... I miss dance.)
I dislike k-pop-style hip hop, which tends to be a straight copy of Western hip hop without the proper posture, let alone any contextualization or nuance, but Mandopop is surprisingly much better. Show Lo is one of my pop guilty pleasures and an exceptional dancer, but his hip hop isn’t just x-copied — he incorporates a variety of other styles (kickboxing, step, ballroom, Chinese martial arts, etc.) and makes it work... not the worst fit for Boyang, maybe. (Or Hanyu, since Show is a giant fan of Japan and fluent in Japanese, to the point of releasing a Japanese album....)
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2017
Nathan's backed more.
Again, you are not a technical caller and don't simply get to decide when the calls were "wrong". She was deemed to have UR jumps and got negative GOEs across the board, and you claim she did a +2 clean combo since you thought the caller and all the judges were wrong? And yes Karen may have gotten a 74 if clean but Mirai would have gotten even higher...probably 75-76...not that either were likely to happen. And on the PCS, you are entitled to your own opinion, but most seem to disagree. PCS is subjective anyways and some may like certain skaters more than others but the skater more judges think have better PCS get the higher scores.
For all your opinions, just like an election you can say you think candidate X is better than candidate Y but if more people vote for candidate Y, too bad, your opinion is worth as much as everyone else's. In this case, both by the judges and the audiences Karen did the worst of three US women.
- Joined
- Sep 14, 2008
I was not a tech caller at those events you mean. Nor were hundreds of other qualified people, and do we really need to get into how reputation/political based so many of the calls are? Any knowledgeable observer can ascertain calls for themselves if they want to look closely. I have put the work in and feel those calls were wrong, all you're doing is looking at something on paper.
You have no argument in the first place even with your "lets only look at previous scores" line of thinking, because the score Karen got on her 3Lutz+3Toe at Worlds factually would have been enough to put her up in 5th place in the SP at Olympics if she had also done the best 3Loop she could have.
Similar threads
