It is not in dispute that FS involves both sport and art. On the sport side, it can be compared to other sports that reward various athletic achievements but do not give additional rewards to those achievements when the athlete is tired.
Backloading Bonus Limited By ISU
- Thread starter IceBallerina
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It is not in dispute that FS involves both sport and art. On the sport side, it can be compared to other sports that reward various athletic achievements but do not give additional rewards to those achievements when the athlete is tired.
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- Dec 9, 2017
I could amend my statement to say "if the judges were trained in a way that let them be accurate in judging the artistic merit of the programs better", but you and I both know we're making rhetorical points here. But a well constructed and choreographed program isn't just about how elements are placed.
And I do think there's a very superficial way of judging currently. And even if we disregard the choreography point, it is true that the judging of PCS is in shambles.
So what would you say if they ban quads for ladies next time?
For me, there should be more ways to victory. Are you able to do quads/3A? OK, that's your way. Are you extremely good at interpretation of music? OK, serve yourself. Is your way to succes to completely backload program? Why not? See? There are so many ways. We can all have preferences and choose our sympathies for skaters on that base, but why should we call for ban the other ways we do not prefer? That sounds pretty hypocritical to me.
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- Nov 30, 2017
So what would you say if they ban quads for ladies next time?
For me, there should be more ways to victory. Are you able to do quads/3A? OK, that's your way. Are you extremely good at interpretation of music? OK, serve yourself. Is your way to succes to completely backload program? Why not? See? There are so many ways. We can all have preferences and choose our sympathies for skaters on that base, but why should we call for ban the other ways we do not prefer? That sounds pretty hypocritical to me.
Isn't that the biggest problem? PCS marks are crazy all the time. We wish a skater who's very good artistically would get higher PCS than those who are not, but that's not what happens. With great TES comes great PCS!
Isn't that the biggest problem? PCS marks are crazy all the time. We wish a skater who's very good artistically would get higher PCS than those who are not, but that's not what happens. With great TES comes great PCS!
I completely agree, that PCS score is often quite mysterious (like Carolina's PCS for free program on EC - that's not hate for her, I like her, but that skate was terrible in all ways and yet she got some 75 points). But then the solution is to value components properly, not to touch the elements.
You use comparison with other sports as a reasoning to not reward achievements when the athlete is tired.
But when I comparison with other sports as a reasoning to not reward you suddenly disagree.
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- Jun 21, 2003
To tell the honest truth, I do not really understand the obsession with "other sports." If it is "other sports" than we like, by all means let's go watch other sports.
To me, we should celebrate what makes figure skating more than "just another sport."
That's what I think, anyway.
Jenaj does make a good point, though. On this thread we are accepting uncritically the tacit assumption that bonuses for backloading is a good idea. In reality, it is just an idea that we have gotten used to and so we judge changes from that starting point. This would be quite a different discussion if we took a broader perspective.
It’s not so much I hate the bonus I hate the division of the free skate Into two parts!! It should be unified! So I’m glad they put more value in the first half again. But the issue is always if a program is 4 minutes and bonus stars at 2 minutes the jumps for bonus take place from 2:00 to 2:30 mostly.
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- Jun 21, 2003
Anyway, I look forward to seeing what skaters come up with for next season. The standard jump layout for the season just past was 3-4 for the top ladies. At the Olympics six of the top ten did 3-4, three did 2-5, and one did 0-7. Will all of these 3-4s change to 4-3s next year? Will there be more of an emphasis on putting easier jumps in the first half and harder combinations in the second half? Do all of these calculations of tenths of a point augment or diminish the sport of figure skating?
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- Feb 11, 2007
Less exciting than now. Is that clear?So what would you say if they ban quads for ladies next time?
To me, scoring figureskating shouldn't be about rewarding difficulty for the sake of difficulty. It should be about rewarding what we human being perceive with our senses as difficult or beautiful. Backloaded jumps gets rewarded now because successfully doing a technical element in a more tired condition is physically more difficult, but in terms of how the athlete presents that extra difficulty and how we spectators/judges perceive that extra difficulty, no, there is nothing that distinguishes a backloaded attempt from a frontloaded attempt. There is nothing more beautiful about an average execution of 3Lz attempted at 3:30 than an average execution of 3Lz attempted at 0:30. Sorry, whether a particular skater has the ability to land a quad/3A or not, that extra stamina that the skater is saving for planned backloaded jumps, I'd rather they use it to maximize the quality of execution of all the jumps, spins, steps and maintaining speed as well as they can, because, this matters to our eyes.
Yes. And this rule makes it less exciting too. Maybe not for you, but for me and I dare to say for many others.
This is completely irrelevant commentary. First, who speaks here about more beautiful backloaded jump? Who? Who?
What that has to do with all technical marks? E. g. for somebody 2A is more beautiful than 3Lz. Its everybory's right but it has literally nothing common with BV that differs those two jumps, and the BV is different because of difference in difficulty of those two jumps. And also jump executed at 0:30 is less difficult than jump executed at 3:30 and that matters even if you are trying to deny it desperately. Beauty is completely different issue and is also valued differently, it has nothing to do with how jump difficulty should be valued (that's like someone would say double jumps are more beautiful for me, let's value them more in BV. Nonsense). BV is about difficulty, not about presenting and beauty, and backloading bonus also. That bonus exists because of difficulty, beauty is completely irelevant for the question how difficulty should be valued. So speaking about beauty (or how it is executed) when the difficulty is what matters here is just senseless.Second, as for the quality of execution, for that is GOE. You are mixing completely different ïssues (basic difficulty, execution, beauty), as if one should exclude other. No, they don't and it absolutely doesn't matter what would you personally want anybody to spare stamina for. You want to force skater to do program your way with absolutely no freedom of choice. Till now nothing prevented skater to do it the way you like, but he had other options also. But you just want the other options to eradicate just because you don't like it.
Definitely diminish to the maximum extreme. because it’s so much math
:think:
... figure skating (which is more like the Oscars than the Olympics) ...
(Mitch Albom | Feb 25, 1988 | Detroit Free Press).
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- Jun 21, 2003
Wait, this may not be an accurate history of the halfway bonus, but wasn’t it initially established to encourage skaters to spread out their jumps rather than creating a fully frontloaded program? And not primarily to award “difficulty”? (That rationale came later I believe.) And in this case, I don’t think they actually want to encourage skaters to switch to a 4-3 layout from a 3-4 regardless if that’s the effect of this new rule (I’m not even sure if they are fully aware that this is the dominant layout), but only that they don’t want to see more instances of a 0-7 or 2-5 or 1-6 kind of layout, in terms of having a balance program (where jumps are spaced more or less evenly throughout the program). I would have love them to just drop the entire bonus to be honest, but it’s understandable why they have to keep it (they don’t want skaters to revert back to a fully frontloaded program). The scaling proposal is more sensible.
Anyways, I don’t think it has to do with their specific intention to advertise a 4-3 layout over a 3-4 more than it is just about not wanting to see more instances of a 0-7 program. Not that I agree with the proposal.
Anyways, I don’t think it has to do with their specific intention to advertise a 4-3 layout over a 3-4 more than it is just about not wanting to see more instances of a 0-7 program. Not that I agree with the proposal.
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- Jan 27, 2014
"Credit for highlight distribution" has always been the stated reason for the bonus.
Under 6.0, frontloading was a so-so issue: lots of 5-2 or 5-3 layouts, though I don't see why those should bother anyone who doesn't mind a 2-5 layout, but plenty of 4-3 or 3-4 layouts as well and sometimes even more backloaded. There was at least as much variety as today. Commentators didn't really get excited over “second-half" jumps for their own sake very often but they did tend to get excited over, and mention the difficulty and risk of, late-in-the-program jumps (like, a 3Lz as the last triple, or Tara's 3T+1Lo+3S).
But I do think difficulty informed the decision somewhat, because the bonus was originally restricted to the FS. The short, with only three jumping passes, didn't originally have a backloading bonus, despite the fact that (partly due to the nature of the SP and the need to skate cleanly and often to minimize risk) frontloading was always more of an issue in the SP than it was in the free skate. You saw a lot of layouts like:
And so eventually (not until 2011, I think), the ISU introduced the bonus in the short program, too. It was very obviously *not* to reward difficulty, but to stop skaters from doing all their jumps in a row in one half of the program... and the current restriction makes perfect sense in light of the rule's history and intent, even if I liked Canada's less stringent version more.
Under 6.0, frontloading was a so-so issue: lots of 5-2 or 5-3 layouts, though I don't see why those should bother anyone who doesn't mind a 2-5 layout, but plenty of 4-3 or 3-4 layouts as well and sometimes even more backloaded. There was at least as much variety as today. Commentators didn't really get excited over “second-half" jumps for their own sake very often but they did tend to get excited over, and mention the difficulty and risk of, late-in-the-program jumps (like, a 3Lz as the last triple, or Tara's 3T+1Lo+3S).
But I do think difficulty informed the decision somewhat, because the bonus was originally restricted to the FS. The short, with only three jumping passes, didn't originally have a backloading bonus, despite the fact that (partly due to the nature of the SP and the need to skate cleanly and often to minimize risk) frontloading was always more of an issue in the SP than it was in the free skate. You saw a lot of layouts like:
- Combo
- Solo Triple
- 2A
- Spin
- Steps/Spirals
- Spin
- Spin
And so eventually (not until 2011, I think), the ISU introduced the bonus in the short program, too. It was very obviously *not* to reward difficulty, but to stop skaters from doing all their jumps in a row in one half of the program... and the current restriction makes perfect sense in light of the rule's history and intent, even if I liked Canada's less stringent version more.
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- Jan 19, 2005
and the Oscar goes to....
Tonya Harding!
well not quite - but to Alison Janney who played the mother.
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- Mar 3, 2014
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You know, I hear folks who would like to see more jumps and more "difficult" jumps emphasized say that they talk to everyone they know, all their friends and family, the folks cleaning up at Rink XYZ and the drunk on 3rd Street, and they all want to see jumps and athleticism underlined because it's a sport.
I say, I talk to everyone I know, all my friends and family, the folks cleaning up at Rink ABC and the drunk on 4th Street, and we all want to see artistry and skating skills and spins emphasized because it makes figure skating unique among sports.
No one wins this one.
Best to just disagree as figure skating fans.....
I say, I talk to everyone I know, all my friends and family, the folks cleaning up at Rink ABC and the drunk on 4th Street, and we all want to see artistry and skating skills and spins emphasized because it makes figure skating unique among sports.
No one wins this one.
Best to just disagree as figure skating fans.....My hypothesis as to why the backloading was limited to 1/3 in the SP/FP respectively, as opposed to 2/4, is because that is the number of combos allowed in each program.
Now, it will be extremely interesting if skaters choose to take the risk of backloading all the combos. If you fail to complete a combo, then you will lose a significant number of points because there are no planned solo jumping passes in the 2nd half to make up the combo. Backloading to the maximum is now far riskier. Interesting indeed.
Now, it will be extremely interesting if skaters choose to take the risk of backloading all the combos. If you fail to complete a combo, then you will lose a significant number of points because there are no planned solo jumping passes in the 2nd half to make up the combo. Backloading to the maximum is now far riskier. Interesting indeed.
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- Jun 21, 2003
I think this is factually and historically correct. Well stated.
