ISU Council decision on Jr Pair ages

[Amei]

FWIW, Sonia and Daniel competed as seniors at 2023 Nationals. They finished 4th, behind Knierim/Frazier, Chan/Howe and Kam/O'Shea.

Can't help wondering if all the naysaying about their competing internationally as juniors for 2023-2024 has anything to do with sour grapes because the 2023 WJCs are such stiff competition for the other junior teams.

Sounds about like the comments that by those raising the age limit, that people were just advocating for it because those skaters were proving to be tough competition and beating seasoned/older skaters.

 

[el henry]

Sounds about like the comments that by those raising the age limit, that people were just advocating for it because those skaters were proving to be tough competition and beating seasoned/older skaters.

Which people?

There may be some posters who have taken different positions, I wouldn't know.

But as for me, I advocated long and loud for raising the age limit for juniors. And for no exceptions to the pairs limits.

Imputing motivations to me, at least, doesn't really work. And I am not alone.

 

[SubRosa]

As if they could not get ideas before that... I'd send them anyway. As soon as they form a partnership / when they aim to form one. The program could be adapted for younger participants.

Skaters are instructed from a young age to be mindful of what they put into their body, lest they test positive for a banned substance. I have been wondering lately (the rumours of abuse at Champs in BC is what got me thinking about this) whether young skaters are equally well educated by their federations about what constitutes physical, mental, emotional, and sexual abuse, and who to turn to if they have concerns. (A question to be put to Ted Barton, perhaps.)

 

[Amei]

Which people?

There may be some posters who have taken different positions, I wouldn't know.

But as for me, I advocated long and loud for raising the age limit for juniors. And for no exceptions to the pairs limits.

Imputing motivations to me, at least, doesn't really work. And I am not alone.

People that complained about the age increase and the retort was that if they were that good of athletes then a few years to wait out the age restriction shouldn't make a difference.

I thought the age needed to be increased to eliminate the 'protected person' status we found out about during the Olympics, though frankly it's a status I'm not crazy about at any international level. I also don't think special exceptions should be made to the rules that have been made to benefit a couple of teams, especially when in at least 1 instance its a multi- year exception that would need to be made, the jwcs were together when their fed voted for the age increase just last year...

And the whole song and dance of the age limit was about protecting young athletes, well so do the young teenage boys in juniors feel protected that they are going to have to compete against a grown man for potentially a couple of years on the junior circuit? Plus there is the power dynamic of a 14 year old girl (can't legally drive) spending most of her time with a 21 year old man (legally capable of buying booze) that several people have voiced issue with existing

 

[yuki@thelake]

Skaters are instructed from a young age to be mindful of what they put into their body, lest they test positive for a banned substance. I have been wondering lately (the rumours of abuse at Champs in BC is what got me thinking about this) whether young skaters are equally well educated by their federations about what constitutes physical, mental, emotional, and sexual abuse, and who to turn to if they have concerns. (A question to be put to Ted Barton, perhaps.)

I looked at the lectures/seminars, both for the athletes' or parents' tracks, in any of the US National Development Team camps. Though they always have sessions on sports psychology and mental training for skaters; and parent preparedness and proactive parenting for parents, there is nothing specifically about abuse. Note that most skaters not at the top of their levels do not have access to these lectures and training.

Have not seen any clubs conduct trainings or sessions about this topic to their members (at least with the various clubs I've been involved with).

 

[gkelly]

And the whole song and dance of the age limit was about protecting young athletes, well so do the young teenage boys in juniors feel protected that they are going to have to compete against a grown man for potentially a couple of years on the junior circuit?

The maximum junior age has been under 19 as of July 1, and under 21 for male pair and dance partners, for several decades now.

Therefore, it has long been true that younger teen boys have had to compete against older teens/young men on the junior circuit. This is nothing new.

It is rare for younger teen boys to be competitive at the junior level in pair skating because the discipline relies on significant upper body strength (and size difference) to execute the most difficult moves overhead. As long as those elements are allowed and highly rewarded in junior competition, male pair skaters who are younger and less physically mature will be at a disadvantage. With the wide age range covered by the junior age limits, especially in pairs, any boys who are ready to compete in junior pairs at all as young teens will likely be looking to stay at the junior level for a number of years before rising to the top junior ranks.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

From what I have seen in terms of pair formation, age eligibility is not the foremost consideration for creating partnerships. It is hard enough to find male pair skaters, so essentially whoever is interested in doing pairs and they'd match him up with a potential pair girl.

Exactly. Availability and good physical match are usually uppermost in mind. And as you noted, quite often boys and girls of the same age don't always pair well, or end up staying together because the boy may not have matured enough physically yet to manage pair elements safely and effectively. Sometimes growth factors enter into situations at some point, as it did for Brooke McIntosh and her former junior partner, whom she grew much taller than. Luckily, Brooke ultimately paired with current partner, Ben Mimar, who was much taller than her (a good thing since she continued to grow like a weed).

I appreciate you pointing out too that awareness of possible abuse issues is being dealt with in a preventative fashion. I did not previously know about any specific preventative measures being in place. Thanks for sharing.

Thanks also to @gkelly, for your common sense post. It's part of what Chris Knierim referenced in his recent interview with This Week in Skating podcast.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Oh well, re the worry over younger teenage boys competing against older teenage boys and boys in their early 20s, who were teenagers very recently. Young people in their 20s are still growing into adulthood btw. I don't care that their legal age references them as adults. I am reminded of the young Nathan Chen soundly beating older junior boys twice at U.S. Nationals -- 2012, 2014.

In regard to abuse issues, that can happen when partners are the same age or one to two years apart. So, it would be a good idea as already suggested, to have skaters of all ages and genders take awareness courses, no matter which discipline they compete in.

 

[yuki@thelake]

I appreciate you pointing out too that awareness of possible abuse issues is being dealt with in a preventative fashion. I did not previously know about any specific preventative measures being in place. Thanks for sharing.

The 18 and older pair skater must pass the Compliance requirements for SafeSports, which includes watching the 4-hour long(!) Safesport training (which is designed such that you have to click on every slide to ensure you read it, not just a video you play without even watching). Otherwise,

- A status of Not Complete indicates you are not authorized to participate in that designated role. All requirements in the Season Compliance box must reflect a Valid Through Date in order to participate in that role.
- SafeSport™ Training status update ~2-3 hours but could take up to 48 hours
- Background Check status update ~2-3 hours to show as in progress but takes 7-10 business days for final resolution

 

[lilimum]

I read somewhere that Ackermann / Harms had split, so this really would only benefit the USA (Baram will still only age up in 2026)
Possibly G/GM too but I think they are embracing seniors next season

If they had any logic they should have stated this before junior worlds or not considered it at all.

Ackermann / Harms did't split. They have just been nominated for the JGP series