ISU Council decision on Jr Pair ages

[4everchan]

@4everchan, your post to which I responded speaks for itself. No need for you to re-explain. And nope, I haven't asked you to discuss B/T. You specifically said you found the possibility of them 'sticking it out' 'confusing,' and you specifically suggested that B/T "could partner up with age appropriate skaters, and consider teaming back up at a later date..." and that "they could learn a lot" from doing so.

I mentioned the specifics of the ISU council ruling because in the previous page in a conversation you had with @moonvine who explained to you Korytek/ Chapman's circumstances, you responded:

Your response is not taking into consideration what the ISU council stated about the narrow exception they are making for junior teams adversely impacted by the recent senior age eligibility changes. The exception only applies to junior teams who competed in juniors last season. While I don't tend to agree with the ISU's approaches to running the sport, and I dislike their lack of vision and their ineffective leadership, I do understand that exceptions to rulings take place all the time, and not just in figure skating. The ISU has made exceptions to rulings before, and they will undoubtedly do so again. Thus, nope, you are in error to characterize the outcome of this current exception as "a favor to Baram/ Tioutmentsev."

Sorry but you do not seem to understand what I am after. I am simply suggesting that considering the numerous partner changes we see with senior pairs, it's odd to be attached at such a young age, to a team, that could split up for so many reasons afterwards. The let everyone compete is not even about other teams... it's about the simple fact that this rule has impacted SO many young women (single skaters), that I find it very hypocritical to make exception for a pairs when there are many skaters who were born just a bit too late to compete in seniors... You think I am wrong, that belongs to you but same goes to me, I believe that this exception is NOT GOOD will leave it at that

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

it's not just Zhang and Zhang...
there are other moments including P/Z

Sigh. Who said that "it's just Zhang and Zhang" ?? Whatever "it" means.

When I mentioned Zhang/ Zhang, I was responding to a lighthearted, off-topic post by @Mathman. My mentioning Zhang/ Zhang is not related to your specific age-related concerns and comments.

Once again, a separate thread should be started to discuss specific concerns regarding age gaps and the dangers involved in training and competing in pairs.

 

[4everchan]

Sigh. Who said that "it's just Zhang and Zhang" ?? Whatever "it" means.

When I mentioned Zhang/ Zhang, I was responding to a lighthearted, off-topic post by @Mathman. My mentioning Zhang/ Zhang is not related to your specific age-related concerns and comments.

Once again, a separate thread should be started to discuss specific concerns regarding age gaps and the dangers involved in training and competing in pairs.

Personally, I've never seen anyone intentionally "thrown across the rink." There's always safety first in pairs figure skating.

This was in response to what you said here. I wouldn't quite say that the skaters above-mentioned have thrown their partner "intentionally" across the rink, but it wasn't exactly careful, safety first pairs figure skating either.

 

[icewhite]

FYI-- The ISU council ruling involves narrowly addressing the undeserved prospect several junior teams were facing regarding sitting out more than one season because of the new age limit rule. That's why the exception to the rule was made. Thus, B/T don't have to 'stick it out' for two seasons. Plus, further junior age eligibility changes may be voted on next year. Meanwhile, the ISU council exception only applies to teams who competed in juniors last season. This is why Timmy Chapman & Ellie Korytek can't benefit. Chapman is ineligible, having aged out of juniors for a couple of seasons already.

I find it confusing why you're acting so overly concerned about Baram/ Tioutmentsev and their future plans. They are the reigning Junior World champions in pairs. They are clearly well-suited to each other talent-wise, and their results prove that, regardless of what sideline observers feel about their ages.

It seems obvious to me that under the rules that were originally in existence, Sonia & Daniel anticipated having to sit out this coming season, and they were making plans accordingly. Like Olivia Flores and Lia Pereira, Sonia competes in both singles and pairs, so she still has her singles career to concentrate on. Her mother is involved in the sport too, which is helpful. Meanwhile, a recent US figsk fan zone feature on Daniel discussed his excitement over an internship he has in aerospace engineering. That's his chosen profession off-ice.

These two young people are very talented and motivated. They have so much ahead of them in life and in pursuing whatever their hearts desire. I'd love to see them further fulfill their potential together in pairs figure skating, but the decision is up to them, their coaches, and their parents. I've never heard of any pairs team intentionally breaking up with the plan to get back together at a later date.

It's not a given that Sonia/ Daniel have decided to compete together again in junior pairs. I heard that U.S. fed will have to put in an application request to the ISU by July 20, in order for Sonia/ Daniel to take advantage of the recent ISU council ruling. Whatever is decided, I wish these two nothing but blessings and fulfillment of their dreams.

How does it matter if they have good results or what he wants to become?? Nobody is arguing that they are bad or stupid people and don't deserve anything good. That's... totally besides the point.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

it's odd to be attached at such a young age, to a team, that could split up for so many reasons afterwards.

Huh? What do you mean by "odd to be attached at such a young age, to a team..." Your phrasing is unclear.

You think I am wrong,

I said that you are in error to characterize the ISU council's exception as "a favour to Baram/ Tioutmentsev." That is inaccurate along with being a judgmental misreading.

How does it matter if they have good results or what he wants to become?? Nobody is arguing that they are bad or stupid people and don't deserve anything good. That's... totally besides the point.

@icewhite, it's unclear why you reacted this way to my response to a different poster. First of all, I didn't say and I don't see where anyone said "they are bad or stupid people." Why it would occur to you to interpret my comments this way is difficult to understand.

To clarify for you: my post that you questioned was in response to 4everchan saying he was confused about a team "sticking it out for one or two seasons..." 4everchan also suggested that B/T could "find age-appropriate partners," and maybe re-partner at a later date. I responded by pointing out B/T would have been aware under the former rule that they would have to sit out a season. If they remain partners, they could skate domestically, and Sonia skating singles would occupy her time.

I mentioned the article about Daniel's passion for aerospace engineering because that shows he has plans and interests beyond skating. Whether or not B/T continue their partnership together is their decision. That was my response, but it was not directed to you icewhite. Your subsequent misreading of my comments is confounding and unnecessary.

 

[icewhite]

Once again, a separate thread should be started to discuss specific concerns regarding age gaps and the dangers involved in training and competing in pairs.

Why? For me that's absolutely a part of the center of this topic, not at all off-topic.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

How does it matter if they have good results or what he wants to become?? Nobody is arguing that they are bad or stupid people and don't deserve anything good. That's... totally besides the point.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say. The point of my post that you are needlessly questioning, has nothing to do with your opinions. I can express whatever I think about Sonia & Daniel. What I have to say about who they are as young people is not tied to anyone's "arguments" for or against anything.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

This was in response to what you said here. I wouldn't quite say that the skaters above-mentioned have thrown their partner "intentionally" across the rink, but it wasn't exactly careful, safety first pairs figure skating either.

In that passage, I did not mention Zhang/ Zhang. I later responded to @Mathman's lighthearted post, where I brought up Zhang/ Zhang regarding a pairs throw mishap at the Olympics. Z/Z were attempting a quad throw that was unsuccessful. My comments were not directly in reference to the overwrought description of pairs ladies being "thrown across a rink." Clearly, the poster who initially said that was using hyperbolic/ exaggerated phrasing. No one has been routinely or intentionally "thrown across a rink."

@Mathman apologized for being off-topic, but I responded in kind to his good humor. Still, even having a lighthearted conversation about the amazing acrobatics and memorable incidents that have occurred in pairs skating, is off-topic to discussion of the ISU council exception for junior pairs teams who competed last season.

My 'safety first' conversation was in reference to how skaters are initially introduced to pairs, and the careful ways they are taught to execute pairs elements in the beginning stages of learning. They add difficulty after safely mastering the basics. The subject of individual risk-taking and pushing boundaries by certain coaches and teams, does not negate the safety measures that are fundamental to sound and responsible teaching practices.

For me that's absolutely a part of the center of this topic, not at all off-topic.

Different strokes for different folks. You guys can carry on. Have a good night.

 

[NanaPat]

I'm not sure what you are trying to say. The point of my post that you are needlessly questioning, has nothing to do with your opinions. I can express whatever I think about Sonia & Daniel. What I have to say about who they are as young people is not tied to anyone's "arguments" for or against anything.

I'm confused. If your comments about Daniel and Sonia are irrelevant to the topic of this thread, and are not meant to influence other posters' opinions or bolster your arguments about the ISU's recent decision, then why post them here? Wouldn't their fanfest be a better place for them?

So you can express whatever you think, but when someone else expresses their opinion it is "needlessly questioning"? @icewhite has every right to answer your post, or to even (gasp) question it.

 

[moonvine]

You know, with the amount of switcheroo that goes on in pairs skating, I think I have a hard time understanding the need to sticking it out for one or two seasons... They could try other partners and learn from that... and come back together later. There is nothing like competitive experience. I say this because we see a lot of changes in senior years anyways, not motivated by age gaps... but by so many other factors... Injuries, different career paths, etc.

So why would a team not compete until they become both senior eligible ? Money is also a factor you know. Without competition eligibility, there is no national funding available, is there?

Both these skaters could partner up with age appropriate skaters, and consider teaming back up if needed at a later point... They would both learn a lot ! i don't know... I find it very confusing.

They are competing domestically as seniors. They will be at Nationals as seniors.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I'm confused. If your comments about Daniel and Sonia are irrelevant to the topic of this thread, and are not meant to influence other posters' opinions or bolster your arguments about the ISU's recent decision, then why post them here? Wouldn't their fanfest be a better place for them?

So you can express whatever you think, but when someone else expresses their opinion it is "needlessly questioning"? @icewhite has every right to answer your post, or to even (gasp) question it.

Well, NanaPat, surprisingly or unsurprisingly, it looks like you are joining in on being 'confused.' LOL! I think everyone here can speak up for themselves, though. So I'm not sure why you find it necessary to jump in on icewhite's behalf.

As I responded to icewhite previously, I'm not here to make 'arguments,' nor as you have erroneously stated, "to bolster arguments." I'm only stating how I feel, and now unfortunately having to correct misinterpretations of my comments. Since what I have to say is quite clear, I don't require anyone rehashing, misinterpreting, and trying to put words in my mouth. I also do not need you to tell me which threads to post in either!

Those who disagree with what I have to say or how I express myself can continue holding their own opinions. I will continue addressing posters in a fair manner whom I disagree with, and especially those who erroneously try to put words in my mouth or challenge what I have to say in a 'confused' way that's completely counterproductive. Where any of us are in disagreement on this or on any topic, is what it is. By this point, I do not see that changing. So, you can carry on with how you feel, but do not try to reinterpret my comments.

 

[4everchan]

They are competing domestically as seniors. They will be at Nationals as seniors.

Great. I had read that in this thread. I guess I meant more about international events but still, US Nationals is definitely a largely competitive field so it will be a good experience for them nevertheless. I will make sure I watch them.

/////

For me, this thread is over and done with. I voiced my disagreement with the ISU Council decision to create exceptions to a rule that has not even gotten more than one season of its application. I explained why I dislike this modification and I have stated that it's nothing against the skaters concerned but the ISU decision itself. I cannot be any clearer and I wish that people who do disagree with me wouldn't make it a personal affair. It gets really heavy and obstructs the conversation.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Yes, it really would be nice if posters would stop misinterpreting posts and taking strong opinions and straightforward comments personally.

 

[eterislouisvuitton]

Ellie Korytek is 14 or 15, I can't find her dob listed anywhere online.

Seems like Ellie was born March 2008. For 23-24, she is just 15 ISU years old while Timmy is 22. So they are talented and can try for Milan 2026 but still have to overcome growth spurts and triple jumps/throws. No matter when in the season they decided to team up, the murmurings and proposals of raising the age limit were around for a while. https://www.instagram.com/p/CNBKZtlrglq/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Seems like Ellie was born March 2008. For 23-24, she is just 15 ISU years old while Timmy is 22. So they are talented and can try for Milan 2026 but still have to overcome growth spurts and triple jumps/throws. No matter when in the season they decided to team up, the murmurings and proposals of raising the age limit were around for a while. https://www.instagram.com/p/CNBKZtlrglq/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

Yeah, thanks for finding that post which reveals Ellie's dob. So being 15, Ellie & Timmy would have been able to compete this season internationally, if not for the sudden rule change after the 2022 Olympics. Timmy will be 23 in September. He hasn't competed in juniors for two seasons. I think 16 year olds can compete internationally this season. But, it changes to age 17 next season. That would mean Ellie & Timmy can't compete internationally until 2025 - 2026.

 

[chuckm]

FWIW, Sonia and Daniel competed as seniors at 2023 Nationals. They finished 4th, behind Knierim/Frazier, Chan/Howe and Kam/O'Shea.

Can't help wondering if all the naysaying about their competing internationally as juniors for 2023-2024 has anything to do with sour grapes because the 2023 WJCs are such stiff competition for the other junior teams.

 

[SubRosa]

Many here have ongoing concerns about girls partnering with men. Potential for abuse. Risk of injuries with high-risk elements. Maybe a need for a rethink of what pairs as a discipline should look like in future.

On the other hand, there are also real concerns about the age rules discouraging some talented current pairs from continuing in the sport. This at a time when junior and senior pairs is just beginning to re-emerge from the double whammy of Covid and the RUS/BLR ban.

What countries might benefit from B/T not competing internationally as juniors this year? Georgia, Ukraine, Canada? Another American team, maybe?

General sense of unfairness, no matter which way the ISU jumps on this, there's plenty of that to go around here. Nothing to do with sour grapes, sorry.

 

[moonvine]

Yeah, thanks for finding that post which reveals Ellie's dob. So being 15, Ellie & Timmy would have been able to compete this season internationally, if not for the sudden rule change after the 2022 Olympics. Timmy will be 23 in September. He hasn't competed in juniors for two seasons. I think 16 year olds can compete internationally this season. But, it changes to age 17 next season. That would mean Ellie & Timmy can't compete internationally until 2025 - 2026.

Yep. It’s going to be a long wait. But I hope they make it because they are that good. I would be completely unsurprised to see them on the podium at Nationals!

 

[yuki@thelake]

Many here have ongoing concerns about girls partnering with men. Potential for abuse. Risk of injuries with high-risk elements.

From what I have seen in terms of pair formation, age eligibility is not the foremost consideration for creating partnerships. It is hard enough to find male pair skaters, so essentially whoever is interested in doing pairs and they'd match him up with a potential pair girl. Once the team gets going, talks of the pair's potential -- especially for getting into the international selection pool and eventually competing internationally -- starts.

One of the trends I am seeing is that the male pair partners come from singles. They compete with either Novice Men or Junior Men, thinking they may have better chances of getting selected internationally as pairs rather than singles, so they shift to pairs (while still sometimes continuing to compete as Novice/Junior Men). This is especially true for boys who are inching closer to 18 or past 18, meaning no more chances for JGP for singles, but can still qualify for JGP for pairs. One of Kneirm's new novice pairs, the boy competes for junior men singles (he was at Skate Milwaukee). Same with Luke Wang. And Matthew Kennedy (heard he's got a new partner).

So you have these 17-19-year-old boys moving from singles to pairs. Coaches typically match the size of the boy to the girl and encourage tryouts with girls that match the weight (a boy that's about 5'6" may need to find a girl 100 lbs or lighter (emphasis on lighter). And these tend to be younger girls. I have seen a tryout of good single skaters of almost the same age (both the boy and the girl are in the National Development Team), but the girl's weight was more than what the boy could safely lift/throw, so she was out since the boy was not that big.

But yeah, there's the potential for abuse. That's why pair boys have to go through Safesport training if they are 18 and above and must pass a background check as part of the process of safeguarding the sport.

 

[yesterday]

if they are 18

As if they could not get ideas before that... I'd send them anyway. As soon as they form a partnership / when they aim to form one. The program could be adapted for younger participants.