Euler aka half Loop jump

[anonymoose_au]

I liked Plushnko's 3a/.5/flip in SLC and it was pretty musical at that: https://youtu.be/MhIiisXRBys?t=1m12s

I love how impressed Scott Hamilton was by it.

Also is it just me or were half-loops not very common until the last few seasons or so?

 

[yude]

Here's a better example of Midori's speed in an axel-euler-salchow combination: https://youtu.be/Af-ls6JwpfM?t=1m21s

 

[pearly]

So many of these examples have the non-landing leg in a bent position. Take a look at Haein's combo here, it's really nice:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SEaM6jmlsc&feature=youtu.be&t=140

Many of the examples posted here look like the skaters rotate their hips first, shoulders second and that makes the jump look uncoordinated. And that free leg position that bothers me so much.


I like it as long as it looks like a proper jump.

 

[iorii]

So many of these examples have the non-landing leg in a bent position. Take a look at Haein's combo here, it's really nice:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SEaM6jmlsc&feature=youtu.be&t=140

Many of the examples posted here look like the skaters rotate their hips first, shoulders second and that makes the jump look uncoordinated. And that free leg position that bothers me so much.


I like it as long as it looks like a proper jump.

That's nice. It doesn't look like a jump, it looks like she just slid very smoothly.

Thanks to this thread now I know there are ways to execute half loop!

 

[Ares]

I am sorry for singling out Alaine Chartrand but her euler is ... :scard8: An eyesore.

Usually I just find them ''mah''.

 

[macy]

So many of these examples have the non-landing leg in a bent position. Take a look at Haein's combo here, it's really nice:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SEaM6jmlsc&feature=youtu.be&t=140

Many of the examples posted here look like the skaters rotate their hips first, shoulders second and that makes the jump look uncoordinated. And that free leg position that bothers me so much.


I like it as long as it looks like a proper jump.

it's like she fully lands the first jump instead of keeping the free leg in front like everyone else...never seen anyone do it that way before! very cool.

 

[gkelly]

Also is it just me or were half-loops not very common until the last few seasons or so?

Yes, you're right that these kinds of combinations were rare until a few years ago -- I think about 8 years ago.

Under 6.0, they were uncommon at the senior level because it was more difficult to add a half loop plus triple salchow or flip at the end of a previous jump and more valuable to add a triple toe or triple loop if possible. There wasn't much to be gained aside from novelty value. For some skaters the half loop-triple sal may have been easier than triple toe, in which case it was worth their while.

In the earlier years of IJS it became even less valuable and therefore even less common: jump-half loop-jump was considered a jump sequence and therefore the value of the element was only 80% of the the sum of the two hardest jumps. If you tried a triple-half loop-triple and ended up doubling the second jump, you'd end up with fewer points than if you just did the first jump on its own. E.g., 3A+2S+SEQ was worth lower base value than solo 3A.

Then the rules changed so that jump-half loop-jump was now considered a three-jump true combination, with full base value for all three jumps. The value of the 1Lo (1Eu) is lower than a 2T or 2Lo that the skater could put on the end of a different three-jump combination, but it allowed for more combinations of two triple jumps (or quad plus triple) with or without a third low-value jump in the combo, and therefore it allowed skaters to do two triple-triples without repeating the toe loop (or loop if that was their preference), or even to do three triple-triples, and use the repeats for higher value jumps like quads and triple axels, or triple flips and lutzes.

 

[SmallAminal]

Yes, you're right that these kinds of combinations were rare until a few years ago -- I think about 8 years ago.

Under 6.0, they were uncommon at the senior level because it was more difficult to add a half loop plus triple salchow or flip at the end of a previous jump and more valuable to add a triple toe or triple loop if possible. There wasn't much to be gained aside from novelty value. For some skaters the half loop-triple sal may have been easier that triple toe, in which case it was worth their while.

In the earlier years of IJS it became even less valuable and therefore even less common: jump-half loop-jump was considered a jump sequence and therefore the value of the element was only 80% of the the sum of the two hardest jumps. If you tried a triple-half loop-triple and ended up doubling the second jump, you'd end up with fewer points than if you just did the first jump on its own. E.g., 3A+2S+SEQ was worth lower base value than solo 3A.

Then the rules changed so that jump-half loop-jump was now considered a three-jump true combination, with full base value for all three jumps. The value of the 1Lo (1Eu) is lower than a 2T or 2Lo that the skater could put on the end of a different three-jump combination, but it allowed for more combinations of two triple jumps (or quad plus triple) with or without a third low-value jump in the combo, and therefore it allowed skaters to do two triple-triples without repeating the toe loop (or loop if that was their preference), or even to do three triple-triples, and use the repeats for higher value jumps like quads and triple axels, or triple flips and lutzes.

that's a great explanation - thanks for that! I do remember seeing Tara Lipinski do it at the Olympics and remarking that I hadn't seen that "weird kinda jump thing" before. Now it is absolutely everywhere and this explains why.

Side question - do lower level (e.g. single jumpers) skaters ever do a "Euler" as a single jump...or is it basically a single loop at that point. Are there actual differences?

 

[cohen-esque]

that's a great explanation - thanks for that! I do remember seeing Tara Lipinski do it at the Olympics and remarking that I hadn't seen that "weird kinda jump thing" before. Now it is absolutely everywhere and this explains why.

Side question - do lower level (e.g. single jumpers) skaters ever do a "Euler" as a single jump...or is it basically a single loop at that point. Are there actual differences?

They could maybe get some sort of credit for it under 6.0 judging, which low levels in the US at least still use. Depends on the judge.

In IJS, the Euler is only a valid jump as part of a combination, so if they did it by itself it would only count as a transition, not an element.

 

[gkelly]

Side question - do lower level (e.g. single jumpers) skaters ever do a "Euler" as a single jump...or is it basically a single loop at that point. Are there actual differences?

It can be used in jump combinations with single (at low levels) or double jumps (at middle levels) the same way it's used in high-level competition with triples etc.

I remember seeing intermediate skaters do 1A+1Eu+2S more than 40 years ago, and that's still a combination that you might see at that level.

Similarly, a solo half-loop or Euler not connected to other jumps in combination is a connecting move that can be used at any level, same as you might see a mazurka or falling leaf or half-flip (with or without a split position in the air), half-lutz, waltz jump, etc.

At the very lowest levels, where skaters are not allowed to do the more difficult single jumps, half-loop/Euler may be taught before or after the single loop and may be counted as a jump element along with half-revolution jumps mentioned above.

But starting at the single-jump levels (No Test and standard Pre-Preliminary and Adult Bronze and Silver levels in the US), they're only considered as transitions.

 

[icetigger]

Who did the earliest half loop-triple salchow (with a preceding jump). Was it Midori? I also know Kurt did a 2a-1/2l 3s in at 89 Worlds? so he might have done one earlier?

https://youtu.be/QdQYM3FotXg?t=3m45s

 

[gkelly]

The first may very well have been by someone not famous, perhaps not televised or the video not preserved, earlier in the 1980s or even late 70s.

 

[icetigger]

It may very well have been. But of known/recorded examples, what is the earliest you know of?

 

[yume]

Not necessarily, and the 3-1-3 is quite a bit easier than a 3-3. You lose a fraction of a point with 0 3-3s in the FS due to this.

Maybe it depends of the jumps. I don't think a 3lz-euler-3S/3F is easier than a 3S-3T ir a 3T-3T.

 

[Mathman]

What an interesting thread this has turned out to be!

 

[Mathman]

By the way, does anyone know who Euler was? I presume it's not the famous eighteenth century mathematician Leonhard Euler, although his wonderful formula for complex exponentiation might have some relevance:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...r's_formula.svg/180px-Euler's_formula.svg.png

I did find out that the first performance of the jump is credited to the Swedish skater Per Thoren some time prior to 1908 and it was once called the Thoren.

 

[waxel]

I'm used to it now, but as it became more ubiquitous, I too often thought it looked like a mistake. Had no idea about the Euler factor!

 

[BillNeal]

I like Johnson's 3Lz+1Eu+3F. I don't recall anyone else doing this combo in competition.

 

[combo]

I like Johnson's 3Lz+1Eu+3F. I don't recall anyone else doing this combo in competition.

Tomoki Hiwatashi it's such a cool combination.

 

[Crossover]

Honestly speaking, I don't think all mentioned examples of euler combos here look effortless or natural. It still has a pause and some labor, so I just accept that's the feature of the jump.