Americans want to get opportunity to protest

[Taan]

Americans want to get opportunity to protest

https://realnoevremya.com/articles/2991-video-replays-to-be-introduced-in-figure-skating

''Just as is the case in the sports of tennis, or American football, I am also recommending that the ISU allow a coach/player to politely request a review of a questionable call immediately after the results are announced. This form of «instant replay» already exists as coaches and skaters sit in the kiss and cry and re-watch the elements back in slow motion on the jumbotron but the ISU should formalize this no matter how much time it might add to the event,'' the coach believes.

Zakrajsek has been supported by people who are closer to skaters than functionaries. So, his initiative has been supported by honoured coach of the USSR Tatyana Tarasova. She noted that the introduction of video replays would have a beneficial effect on the refereeing, strengthening the principle of fairness.

 

[Mohacz]

Something similar to VAR in football? But with skaters observing the scores given by judges on a specially prepared screen and protesting the decisions they deem unfair or incorrect? That would be interesting. Although I think in gymnastics there are protests and I think in the last olympic games some country in the men team's event lost bronze medal after the protest filed by other country.
And I think in one of the last Europeans there was a controversy regarding Bobrova/Soloviev and Capellini/Lanotte. After the SD one of them protested some of the elements of the other couple. It was revised, downgraded and it resulted in the switch of positions (I don't remember now who protested and who had their element downgraded, but I remembered it was widely commented because there had been no precedense).

 

[Harriet]

Although I think in gymnastics there are protests

Yes, gymnastics allows individuals to submit protests, and for that reason only provisional scores are issued immediately following each gymnast's performance. There's a story of one gymnast coming off an event (I think uneven bars) and immediately grabbing a pen and paper and noting down exactly what she did and what base values she should get for each element; when her numbers and her announced score didn't match, she filed a protest and submitted her notes, and on review they were found to match her performance better than the initial score, so her score was revised upwards.

I'd be fine with this happening. More than fine, in fact, as it would afford lower-ranked skaters in particular the opportunity to fight back against the harsher scrutiny and lack of benefit-of-doubt they get at major championships in particular. But measures would have to be taken to avoid time-wasting through ongoing protests, or vexatious protests. So to start with, you'd have to rule that nobody, under any circumstances, can protest anybody else's results. You'd also have to specify what can be protested - tech panel calls, judges' marks, or both? If judges' marks, GOE only, PCS, or both? (I'd prefer tech panel calls only, especially now that underrotation calls and edge calls have greater impact.)

And then there's the issue of how many protests you get to file. In gymnastics I'm pretty sure you can file any number of protests, but you have to pay - cash, on the spot - to file each one, and if your protest is proven valid the money is returned to you, but if the initial assessment is proven correct instead, you're out that cost. And each successive protest costs more. There are more events per athlete in a gymnastics competition than in a figure skating one, and IIRC they get to file one protest covering each event; that wouldn't necessarily work for figure skating, but maybe skaters could have the ability to file protests for individual elements, with each protested element in the program costing more, but the charge clock resets after the SP/RD.

I don't know what the cost of filing a protest is in gymnastics, but whatever it was set at for skating, it would need to be high enough to discourage frivolous claims while not being so high as to make it impossible for some competitors to file even one. Say, 75 Euros for the first protest per program, 125 for the second, 200 for the third and so on?

Diving is another sport where there might be a protest system in place, but I've never heard of one - does anybody know about that?

 

[Plumededragon]

The idea itself isn’t bad, but helping your skaters to fix their UR issues (Vincent, Mirai, Young...) would be a better idea than encouraging them to do bigger jumps and then complaining about strict TP calls.

But the thing is (as lot of people already said) that the TP must be fair to all skaters and not call just one skater URs and ignoring others. That was the big issue in SA.

 

[MissBeeFarm]

Something similar to VAR in football? But with skaters observing the scores given by judges on a specially prepared screen and protesting the decisions they deem unfair or incorrect? That would be interesting. Although I think in gymnastics there are protests and I think in the last olympic games some country in the men team's event lost bronze medal after the protest filed by other country.
And I think in one of the last Europeans there was a controversy regarding Bobrova/Soloviev and Capellini/Lanotte. After the SD one of them protested some of the elements of the other couple. It was revised, downgraded and it resulted in the switch of positions (I don't remember now who protested and who had their element downgraded, but I remembered it was widely commented because there had been no precedense).

In gymnastics there are inquiries where D-Scores can be protested. D-Scores are the difficulty values, E-Scores (execution scores) cannot be protested. In order to protest the coach has to pay the judges (I think the money goes to the FIG aka ISU of gymnastics) a certain amount of money (100$ or something). When the inquiry is accepted the coach gets the money back, if it's rejected, the FIG gets to keep the money.

The incident you're refering to was the men's Team final at the 2012 Olympics, where Japan secured their medal only after an inquiry and Ukraine got knocked back to 4th place. Aly Raisman also won a beam bronze after the competition was basically already over by way of inquiry at the same Olympics. It's always very unfortunate, but if the judges would just do their job correctly the first time around, things like that wouldn't happen. In general, those inquiries are pretty frequent, especially during Finals. But normally the competitions just goes on and the skills in question are reviewed while another gymnast is already competing. So the competition doesn't really get much longer due to inquiries.

 

[Harriet]

The idea itself isn’t bad, but helping your skaters to fix their UR issues (Vincent, Mirai, Young...) would be a better idea than encouraging them to do bigger jumps and then complaining about strict TP calls.

But the thing is (as lot of people already said) that the TP must be fair to all skaters and not call just one skater URs and ignoring others. That was the big issue in SA.

Of course teaching good technique takes priority, but there's a difference between a strict call and an incorrect one. Sometimes the tech panel genuinely does get it wrong, for whatever reason, and when they do the people they're assessing need to have a mechanism to flag that and have the incorrect judgment addressed. Particularly because their calls have consequences beyond who gets what medal. A correct versus incorrect call can make the difference between a skater getting their TES minimums for Worlds or not, for example.

 

[century2009]

It is better he spends his time fixing Vincent's UR.

It is not like that is something new that Vincent got called on. He ALWAYS underrotates.

The idea is not bad, but dont like where it is coming from because it makes matters worse for him when the victim is known for doing that act in the first place.

 

[MissBeeFarm]

Yes, gymnastics allows individuals to submit protests, and for that reason only provisional scores are issued immediately following each gymnast's performance. There's a story of one gymnast coming off an event (I think uneven bars) and immediately grabbing a pen and paper and noting down exactly what she did and what base values she should get for each element; when her numbers and her announced score didn't match, she filed a protest and submitted her notes, and on review they were found to match her performance better than the initial score, so her score was revised upwards.

You're referring to Sanne Wevers on beam in 2015. Aliya Mustafina also does her own calculations. Inquiries happen all the time in gymnastics, though. They're very common.

 

[MajaHled]

I think if done correctly, it could be beneficial, but do we trust ISU to implement it correctly? Idk, lol.

Definitely preventing people from prolonging the competition would be necessary, but I'm not sure if cash payment would exactly be a good idea. I don't know the financial situation of most skaters, but just thinking back to Donovan (who barely has enough finance to get by and even so can't even afford to go to all the competitions he could), I don't think there's really a way to make it high enough to be effective discouragement but at the same time affordable for everyone.

 

[Harriet]

You're referring to Sanne Wevers on beam in 2015. Aliya Mustafina also does her own calculations. Inquiries happen all the time in gymnastics, though. They're very common.

Thank you! That is indeed what I was remembering (hey, beam to bars isn't that big a difference...they're both parallel to the ground... ).

 

[Plumededragon]

Of course teaching good technique takes priority, but there's a difference between a strict call and an incorrect one. Sometimes the tech panel genuinely does get it wrong, for whatever reason, and when they do the people they're assessing need to have a mechanism to flag that and have the incorrect judgment addressed.

Oh I do agree with that, we always have a fair share of missed calls and wrong calls each season. To have added cameras or something else that help the TP to prevent wrong calls and not ignoring others? I’m all for it as it would benefit everyone. After all, the fact that other skaters UR/edge/other issues went unnoticed was the real problem.

 

[karne]

Of course teaching good technique takes priority, but there's a difference between a strict call and an incorrect one.

But none of the calls Zakrasjek was complaining about were incorrect.

A correct versus incorrect call can make the difference between a skater getting their TES minimums for Worlds or not, for example.

And the skater taking more than 30 seconds to take position, even though that's been the rule for at least four years and there's a giant frickin' countdown clock on the jumbotron, can make the difference between a skater getting fifth and a skater getting a medal. But it's more convenient for Zakrasjek to blame the evil tech panel than to admit his skater made such a stupid error.

 

[Harriet]

But none of the calls Zakrasjek was complaining about were incorrect.

And I couldn't care less about Vincent Zhou's specific case, or his coach's motivations for proposing the scheme - at least not without some quite specialised surgical intervention. If it would have a net benefit for the majority of skaters and increase the professionalism of the sport, I'm all for it no matter where the idea came from. Even a stopped clock can be right twice a day!

 

[gsk8]

Strange about the title on the article reading "Americans". It appears it was a suggestion from Coach Z.

 

[DanseMacabre]

I don't really see a problem with allowing protests to be filed on incorrect calls that impact the TES score. Honestly, I've always thought it was silly that it wasn't allowed. Gymnastics does it. Plenty of sports provide a provision for similar protests. I don't see why figure skating should be any different. Tech callers are only human after all.

Do I think that'll help Tom Z and his particular issue with Vincent's calls? Nope. But in general, I don't think it's a terrible idea.

Do I trust the ISU to make a step in the right direction for improved transparency and accountability for scoring in any respect? HAHAHAHAHA. No.

 

[TontoK]

I don't think there would be anything wrong with a skater saying something to the effect of "Hey, I was scored as doing a 2S, but I did a 3S. Can you look again?"

But that's a far cry from complaining about an UR, or GOE, and perhaps even levels on spins and footwork. Of course, those levels generally confuse me - so it may be as easy to identify as a mis-called jump.

 

[el henry]

The thread title is misleading. Americans (plural) don’t “want” anything.

Tom Z., after Vincent’s placement in Skate America, wrote a post where he wanted more camera angles, which I believe has been discussed elsewhere. There are direct links to Tom Z.’s social media comments, which I don’t have here.

The cited article not only incorrectly refers to Americans, but talks about the World Cup AFAIK, that had nothing to do with TomZ.’s suggestion. I don’t know this link, is it a “real” paper or a blog link of some sort?

Discussing whether skaters should have the opportunity to protest calls is certainly an issue, but without reference to this misleading article.

 

[vesperalvioletta]

I feel like I can't really take this seriously coming from Tom Z. given Vincent's recent scores. He just sounds like a bitter coach who's upset that his skater got calls that he disagreed with in a competition that is over and done with.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I feel like I can't really take this seriously coming from Tom Z. given Vincent's recent scores. He just sounds like a bitter coach who's upset that his skater got calls that he disagreed with in a competition that is over and done with.

To be fair, the SP 4F< upgraded to fully rotated and the LP 3A< downgraded to 3A<< (which would have been the right calls, IMO) might have put him on the podium and still in the running for the GPF. He has a lot to work on, but Vincent could have used the extra momentum that a GP medal would have provided.

 

[ice coverage]

Side note: The ISU's Lakernik does agree with TZ re improving the quality of video replays, according to this article (or blog or whatever it is).

Excerpt:

However, some do not see in the proposal of Zakrajsek anything new. Vice-President of ISU Alexander Lakernik was one of the first to speak in this regard. According to him, video replays already exist and hardly demand changes at this moment, and he agreed with the opinion on bad technical equipment of judges.

''Zakrajsek is a good coach, professional, and his emotions in this case are understandable,'' said Lakernik. ''But video replays already exist in figure skating, in full amount, the judges and the audience can see them. The system is totally transparent. The only thing I would agree with in this case is the comment on the quality of these video replays, which should be improved.''​

(I realize that the OP wants to focus on whether it should be possible to file protests -- but I previously was unaware of Lakernik's comments re the quality of video replays.)