Johnny's Reaction in the K&C

[antmanb]

Gay men, women and teenage girls - it's the party of the (near) future!

Absolutely !

Ant

 

[Mathman]

Now add in the core of the figure skating audience -- families with young children, grandparents looking for something cool to take their grandchildren to, and we're on a roll!

 

[Spun Silver]

MM, did you find FS through a family member, channel-surfing or what? (Marketing research question)

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

But where are the gay men and gay ladies in the audience? Few, if any. Most men and women there are dads and moms, and the singles have been following the sport for years. No time to swing.

Johnny attracts a big fan base because he skates among the best.

 

[antmanb]

But where are the gay men and gay ladies in the audience? Few, if any.

How could you miss them - they're the ones with flashing neon "GAY!" signs over their heads!! And we all know of course that gay men and lesbians never have children with them (be it biological, adopted, nieces or nephews)

Ant

 

[antmanb]

MM, did you find FS through a family member, channel-surfing or what? (Marketing research question)

Strangely enough my love of skating first came from my dad. I have my suspicions he first liked it because he was leching at the females in little outifts He then went on to appreciate the beauty and athleticism of the sport. He (like me) tends to get bored watching ice dance. Pairs became his favourite discipline..again another influence on me.

Ant

 

[layman]

But where are the gay men and gay ladies in the audience? Few, if any. Most men and women there are dads and moms, and the singles have been following the sport for years. No time to swing.

Johnny attracts a big fan base because he skates among the best.

They are in the audience too, they just don't wear signs saying "I am a gay man" or "I am a gay lady," and audiences are no longer segregated, so there is no separate section for gays (if that's what you are looking for).

It's interesting that Evan Lysacek brings up many of the issues that we have been discussing in this thread in the following article:

http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_5181586

I found this quote of Lysacek's particularly interesting:

"We've got a lot of sequins going on," Lysacek said. "I'm doing the best I can to change that and wear high-fashion designers and trying to get design out there and masculine clothing, a masculinity and a simplicity and put the focus on the skating instead of the glitter."

Johnny talked about the pressure he was under this season to make his programs more "masculine." Rudy Galindo talked about the pressure from officials to make his style more "masculine." John Curry complained about the same pressure.

It seems that the powers that be are deeply uncomfortable with the way the sport is perceived and deeply uncomfortable with the presence of gay men in the sport. The way I see it, the perception of figure skating by the general public as a "gay" sport has almost nothing to do with the presence of gay athletes in skating and more to do with skaters (and dancers and other performing artists) defying gender perceptions...such as men wearing sequins (Lysacek says that he has thrown out all his sequined outfits).

I found this article particulary helpful in understanding the issues of homophobia in figure skating:

http://www.dallasvoice.com/artman/exec/view.cgi/53/1301

As far as Lysacek's comments, he seems to see himself as the new, straight savior of US Men's Skating but I am afraid that the general public won't care whether he wears sequins or not, as long as he is a figure skater, he will be "suspect" in their eyes.

I don't think skaters like Rudy Galindo, Johnny Weir (or John Curry for that matter) need to butch up their programs and skate in a style that's not natural for them in order to give skating a "straight" image. As all the articles make perfectly clear, figure skating will never have a straight image.

 

[layman]

Someone asked earlier what this discussion of homophobia in figure skating had to do with Johnny's Reaction in the Kiss & Cry Area. I say, homophobia had a lot to do with Johnny's reaction.

Johnny was under extreme pressure this season to change his style (to make it more "masculine"). He knew that the USFSA could not wait to replace him as the champion with a more acceptable (in their eyes) figure head, with a more straight-seeming one. Johnny felt that he had let himself and his fans down by giving the USFSA the opportunity to fulfill this agenda.

 

[attyfan]

Someone asked earlier what this discussion of homophobia in figure skating had to do with Johnny's Reaction in the Kiss & Cry Area. I say, homophobia had a lot to do with Johnny's reaction.

Johnny was under extreme pressure this season to change his style (to make it more "masculine"). He knew that the USFSA could not wait to replace him as the champion with a more acceptable (in their eyes) figure head, with a more straight-seeming one. Johnny felt that he had let himself and his fans down by giving the USFSA the opportunity to fulfill this agenda.

If there was any pressure at all from the USFS to change his style, Johnny might have been crying because he gave in to it, tried to change, and didn't get the "payoff" -- because he didn't skate well. Face it, no matter what the USFS wanted him to do, when he went to Nats and skated as himself (instead of what the USFS is allegedly pressuring him to be), he would do so well that there was nothing the USFS could do about it. Rudy did the same.

IMO, the main to-do about Johnny's reaction in the K & C is that he had much of the viewing audience feeling bad when there was nothing they could do about it --and people don't like it when they are made to feel helpless.

 

[Spun Silver]

Thanks for your posts, Layman. You are making the connection between Johnny and the drift of the thread very clearly.

I agree that Evan's comments make the points about homophobia well. He's free to be himself too - but there is an implicit jab at Johnny since Johnny has been the leading US male winner and attention-getter in recent years -
and that (Evan's effort to distance himself from gay skaters and to side with the straight majority everywhere) is not so OK by me. Is he also trying to present it as a case of reverse discrimination - like he should get points because he's a straight man coming out of the closet? Spare me. He did a sensational FS at Nats but I am not liking what I see of his personality.

I think the only place I seriously disagree with Ant is that I'm not convinced the judging would be corrupted by homophobia. I see the USFSA more as dominated by economic/marketing concerns that tip into homophobia.

As for Johnny - see the thread on skater's prize money in the Edge and you'll see why many skaters today are thinking about their marketability in other areas. Economic worries, the sheer weight of Olympic-year public attention to his sexuality, and USFSA's indirect pressure motivated by decline of skating audiences here - all these are more than enough to affect Johnny's emotions and skating this season.

 

[attyfan]

... It's interesting that Evan Lysacek brings up many of the issues that we have been discussing in this thread in the following article:

http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_5181586

I found this quote of Lysacek's particularly interesting:

"We've got a lot of sequins going on," Lysacek said. "I'm doing the best I can to change that and wear high-fashion designers and trying to get design out there and masculine clothing, a masculinity and a simplicity and put the focus on the skating instead of the glitter."
...

Considering the article was addressed to the issue of comparative marketability of male skaters vs. female skaters, I don't think his comments necessarily smack of his being homophobic. Instead, I think he is facing reality -- until and unless male skaters are perceived as being as "masculine" as football players, they are not going to get the endorsements that the NFL guys get.

There may have been a potential side-effect on Johnny, though -- the comparative unavailability of endorsements may cause him to pursue more of his other interests (modeling, design, etc.) at the expense of his training, just the way Matt Savoie never let his skating get in the way of his education. In both cases, the guys were smart enough to look out for their post-skating lives first.

 

[layman]

Considering the article was addressed to the issue of comparative marketability of male skaters vs. female skaters, I don't think his comments necessarily smack of his being homophobic. Instead, I think he is facing reality -- until and unless male skaters are perceived as being as "masculine" as football players, they are not going to get the endorsements that the NFL guys get.

Male skaters are never going to get the endorsements that the NFL guys get, because the sport itself, the activity of skating is not perceived as masculine...it does not matter whether a straight guy or gay guy is the current champion...the sport is still perceived as a feminine sport ...and trying to keep the gay guys in the closet...trying to disassociate with everything feminine, trying to choose only "masculine" music and "masculine" costumes, getting rid of all sequins and bright colors and puffy sleeves, won't change people's perception of the sport.

 

[SeaniBu]

On topic.
There have been may sports figures in history that cry after a game of all different orintations. I remember Coony as one of the largest (and one hell of a left hook) boxers ever to hit the sport of boxing cry with such a heart felt and emotion speech after his loss. That is remembered as a "special moment" in boxing history. I have seen Elway with tears in his eyes, and counless Basketball players as well. I think his crying was nothing more then a sign of how much it meant to him and doubt that anyone who just thinks about it for a minute would not feel that was a poor sign of an athelet.

But you keep writing that the sport should be only about the sport....don't you?

No, example #1 of how you are adding / changing a word to convey a completely different meaning intended by me to try and make your theory of what you are skewed in thinking fit your idea of me. I, me, SeaniBu, never said "only." I am the "Balance man."

You must be joking right? Your point was that you thought FS is gay friendly.

#2. No, more then most sports

is that you can't just put the shutters down on issues of discrimination and say - we're not to discuss it because this is about sport not discrimination.

#3 Never said that either. We are discussing it aren't we?

Its about an attitude you seem to give off that shows you to be homophobic,

??? Conjecture about my personality again. You are trying to label me? Where does this come from if you think I am Homophobic?

Homophobes do not wish to discuss it - they are very certain about how wrong it is to be homosexual, so you end up debating it with other homosexuals or people who are sympathetic to your cause.

We are discussing it aren't we?

I think that those allegations hould be investigated because its important to know that gay people should be able to take part in this sport without suffering dicrimination.

I agree and think that is what is going on with this discussion.

And a KKK member wearing a hood can say he likes black people. Its people's actions and arguments (substance not the form) that will always show someone's true colours.

Now you are just being a .... at the same time you are showing your true colors. Attempting to make negative hateful aspects of society congruent with me is asinine.

Government is always the best place - you change the attitude in government and get yourself protected with legislation and then work your way down. Changing somone's mind - human to human is easy, its changing entire groups of people's entrenched attitdue is hard, that's why you go for the estbalishment first.

:agree:

So you are arguing the other side?

Know your "enemy."

In case you missed it i quoted your exact words and replied to them. I never "re-fabricated" anything.

In your replies yes you did, there are examples above. I am surprised you thought I meant you reworded my quotes.???
LSS, I am "stealing the enemies plane so we know how to shoot it down" IMO. I think the "mission" is complete. But the plane is still flying in some skis because the bullets missed the mark. I don't care that much that I had to "suffer," IOW how not to do it.

 

[Vodka Shot]

I've been [complaining] that I want Evan to show his personality more but, now that I've begun to see it I want him to go back to being bland if that's the kind of crap he's gonna say.

I think male FSkaters could get endorsements, even out gay ones, but it wouldn't be your typical sports endorsements. For some reason sometimes ppl think gay men know and are better at some stuff- fashion, interior design, beauty-therefore I could see someone like Johnny getting endorsement deals for something like Ikea, or some large cosmetic company, or a fashion label.

I don't think perceived gayness is the problem necessarily but, just that no-one would want someone to endorse their product unless they were well-known. Most skaters aren't household names.

 

[Tonichelle]

Evan sounds very much like Scott Hamilton when he went away from the beaded costumes to the speed skater. Nothing wrong with it. Evan knows what it will take to get the guys some respect in the US... *Shrugs*

as for this take over of the thread: take it elsewhere. At least play nice on the board. thx

 

[SeaniBu]

as for this take over of the thread: take it elsewhere. At least play nice on the board. thx

Sorry, but at least my first comment was on topic. Well...etc...

:agree:

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

In roller figure skating, the men are not permitted to wear sequins. bugle beads, rhinestones on their costumes. However they are permitted in Dance and Pairs to compliment the Ladies costumes.

I'm with Evan on this, let's concentrate on the skating and not the glitter.

Joe

 

[Hsuhs]

As for Evan and that intention of his expressed in the article, not a very smart move, IMO. I thought Marshalls'd learnt him a thing or two. Maybe he's a slow learner. But then again, he's only 21. And it's never too late to become a better person, I guess.

P.S. My (middle) finger is really hurting from scrolling down this thread.

 

[JACJR]

Time to reflect.

Can anyone acutally believe a change in costumes will have an effect on the perception of mens figure skating? How does a sequin count equate to a sexual preference? Flamboyant costuming does not seem to bother european skating fans, nor doe it impede the superior skating skills of european men.

I dare say Evan will be looking at some serious sequins, capes and gloves, at Worlds, and oh, by the way, looking at the skaters wearing them perform multiple quads and triple, triple combinations. And, looking at those very same skaters atop the podium.

 

[Vodka Shot]

If it really bothers him that bad that there are sparkles and glitter then perhaps he should be a speed skater? FS is part theatre and art-always has been and hopefully always will be-if he's not comfortable w/ that aspect of it then he's in the wrong business IMO. I also find it funny that he believes his costumes are somehow more masculine? All they are is more boring. Wearing all black doesn't make someone straight?