Quads. Why or why not?

[sx98423]

Well we will agree to disagree on that. I’m not here to bash anyone’s teachings or any skater. But I definitely don’t think I would use the word perfecting in relation to certain skaters jumps. That’s not just the ladies either.

yes we will probably disagree on that lol. but there are skaters who can't even jump quality triples. i think it would be good to reward both those who do have top notch triples and also reward those who do quads since both of these things are significantly harder than jumping a below average triple.

personally i find quads to be worth more than a perfect triple, but i understand if others find perfect triples to be better than quads. what i don't agree with is somehow not rewarding quads at all if they are underrotated or if there is a fall. if those who spend their careers perfecting triples should be rewarded then by your own logic so should skaters who train quads since this requires just as much time and energy

 

[el henry]

yes we will probably disagree on that lol. but there are skaters who can't even jump quality triples. i think it would be good to reward both those who do have top notch triples and also reward those who do quads since both of these things are significantly harder than jumping a below average triple.

personally i find quads to be worth more than a perfect triple, but i understand if others find perfect triples to be better than quads. what i don't agree with is somehow not rewarding quads at all if they are underrotated or if there is a fall. if those who spend their careers perfecting triples should be rewarded then by your own logic so should skaters who train quads since this requires just as much time and energy

A double with a fall should not be rewarded, a triple with a fall should not be rewarded, a quad with a fall should not be rewarded.

This is a sport, and “almost” only counts in horseshoes. ETA: thank god it seems the scoring rewards that today, now if only it rewarded the skill athleticism and grace necessary for a long spiral or spread eagle, my life would be complete

 

[sx98423]

A double with a fall should not be rewarded, a triple with a fall should not be rewarded, a quad with a fall should not be rewarded.

This is a sport, and “almost” only counts in horseshoes. ETA: thank god it seems the scoring rewards that today, now if only it skill athleticism and grace necessary for a long spiral or spread eagle, my life would be complete

yes i guess i am using "reward" loosely. i just meant it shouldn't be worth nothing as the user i was responding to suggested

 

[laybackrelaxspinfast]

yes we will probably disagree on that lol. but there are skaters who can't even jump quality triples. i think it would be good to reward both those who do have top notch triples and also reward those who do quads since both of these things are significantly harder than jumping a below average triple.

personally i find quads to be worth more than a perfect triple, but i understand if others find perfect triples to be better than quads. what i don't agree with is somehow not rewarding quads at all if they are underrotated or if there is a fall. if those who spend their careers perfecting triples should be rewarded then by your own logic so should skaters who train quads since this requires just as much time and energy

Well my point on not rewarding the badly executed quads was as a means to retain the artistry of the sport and to prevent skaters feeling pressured to push themselves and potentially injure themselves. Individuals can hold their own beliefs that quads are no more dangerous than triples but physics would prove otherwise. The lack of reward for quad attempts would be to discourage those who have not ‘perfected’ their triple technique from attempting them. And those who are falling more than they are landing to leave the quads alone. They should never be a necessity to win a competition, they should be a feat of how well trained the athlete is. And I don’t think anyone can argue that a 14 year old girl has had nearly enough time to perfect their technique to the point of jumping quads. It just doesn’t make sense, not when we can clearly see other competitors demonstrating beautiful, textbook technique on triples that is absent from these same athletes that are landing quads triple jumps. Essentially what that says is that you sacrifice technique for the short lived ability to score a few more points when you can actually get the thing landed.

 

[elysium]

Many ladies are really consistent with their triples nowadays, especially the younger generations. If no one pushes the envelop, and everyone only spend time to perfect the existing technique and the artistic side, it just won't be as exciting for the general public. Think the extreme case of ice dancing, where the casual olympic viewers probably don't see much differences between teams placed at the 4th place and 10th place.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

Well my point on not rewarding the badly executed quads was as a means to retain the artistry of the sport and to prevent skaters feeling pressured to push themselves and potentially injure themselves. Individuals can hold their own beliefs that quads are no more dangerous than triples but physics would prove otherwise. The lack of reward for quad attempts would be to discourage those who have not ‘perfected’ their triple technique from attempting them. And those who are falling more than they are landing to leave the quads alone. They should never be a necessity to win a competition, they should be a feat of how well trained the athlete is. And I don’t think anyone can argue that a 14 year old girl has had nearly enough time to perfect their technique to the point of jumping quads. It just doesn’t make sense, not when we can clearly see other competitors demonstrating beautiful, textbook technique on triples that is absent from these same athletes that are landing quads triple jumps. Essentially what that says is that you sacrifice technique for the short lived ability to score a few more points when you can actually get the thing landed.

But the whole point is - Trusova did perfected her triples already! She never felt on a triple or triple triple combos, got an underrotation call or an unclear edge from what i can remember. There is no futher perfection for her (at this point) than to try one rotation more

 

[laybackrelaxspinfast]

Many ladies are really consistent with their triples nowadays, especially the younger generations. If no one pushes the envelop, and everyone only spend time to perfect the existing technique and the artistic side, it just won't be as exciting for the general public. Think the extreme case of ice dancing, where the casual olympic viewers probably don't see much differences between teams placed at the 4th place and 10th place.

I agree, but for the ladies and certain men it’s a loop take off on a toe jump and/or very heavy pre-rotation, and I’m sorry to say but that means the triple wasn’t perfected in the first place and it’s not a ‘real’ quad, arguably some skaters don’t have ‘real’ triples, so at least it’s a step up from that. I’m not going to pretend I’m not impressed, I enjoy these ladies and their skating for the most part. But it just isn’t what it says on the box. I also am not a fan of watching young girls hit the ice on a very regularly basis at the expense of an element they don’t need. I guess time will tell though, we will see how they fare, let’s hope well.

 

[laybackrelaxspinfast]

But the whole point is - Trusova did perfected her triples already! She never felt on a triple or triple triple combos, got an underrotation call or an unclear edge from what i can remember

Don’t mistake bad judging for good technique. YouTube has a speed control button, you are more than welcome to watch the jumping passes in slow motion and evaluate what is happening and what should be happening according to the rules of each jump.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

Don’t mistake bad judging for good technique. YouTube has a speed control button, you are more than welcome to watch the jumping passes in slow motion and evaluate what is happening and what should be happening according to the rules of each jump.

I know quite well what is and should be happening according to the ISU rules. So, i'm leaving the rest of you to evaluate jumping passes with your own rules on a YouTube speed control button

 

[laybackrelaxspinfast]

I know quite well what is and should be happening according to the ISU rules. So, i'm leaving the rest of you to evaluate jumping passes with your own rules on a YouTube.

I don’t understand, is that you agreeing that the jumps are pre-rotated with a loop entry?
I mean regardless they are getting called clean so good for them, but realistically this is not moving the sport forward. It’s rewarding the wrong technique.

 

[elysium]

I agree, but for the ladies and certain men it’s a loop take off on a toe jump and/or very heavy pre-rotation, and I’m sorry to say but that means the triple wasn’t perfected in the first place and it’s not a ‘real’ quad, arguably some skaters don’t have ‘real’ triples, so at least it’s a step up from that. I’m not going to pretend I’m not impressed, I enjoy these ladies and their skarting for the most part. But it just isn’t what it says on the box. I also am not a fan of watching young girls hit the ice on a very regularly basis at the expense of an element they don’t need. I guess time will tell though, we will see how they fare, let’s hope well.

That's why I said for casual viewers. Of course many have flawed techniques, but only the experts and dedicated fans see those differences. I think no one likes to see skaters falling on the ice .

 

[laybackrelaxspinfast]

As you can see from my profile picture I’m a big fan of someone who has flawed technique (proud of her for working towards fixing this though), it doesn’t mean we can’t enjoy these skaters and be excited when they win and root for them. But we should not be pretending that what they are doing is correct or somehow moving the sport forward. Especially not when it can potentially cause very serious injuries, as we have agreed nobody wants to see them fall or hurt themselves. Sometimes I wish I could take the pessimistic rule book lenses off and enjoy it for what a casual viewer sees, but knowing that this is the start of something much bigger than two teenage girls jumping quads is unnerving and I would be quite happy to stop it for the pay off of good, safe technique and beautiful skating. That is subjective, but we can all agree on the likes of Alena having a stunning double axel, that is what I want to see more of. Not flawed quads, I would take a Trusova layback or triple combo over a single quad, because I trust that she is safe doing them and she does them well and it looks beautiful.

 

[atsumiri]

If you want a good flip, Yuna Kim and Nathan Chen, of course, come to mind. Yuna's lack of prerotation is amazing, while Nathan is still the only skater with a true 4F in my eyes. If Sasha could just land those quads without such dodgy technique I'd be quite thrilled for her. I'm very curious to see how her 4Lo will play out.

funny thing... when you call Yuna's flip with an edge problem ... as a perfect one. says a lot)

 

[champs]

It is possible to have the correct edge (or at least lack an incorrect edge if you’re on a flat or the edge is unclear) at the moment of takeoff for the Lutz but lack counter-rotation.

But -- it seems to me that the counter-rotation and the outside edge go together. If you are riding the outside edge, you are automatically curving away from the direction of the jump. By the same token, with the long classic approach I don't see how it is possible to pre-rotate at all. If anything, you have an anti-rotation rather than a cheated one at take-off.

My intuition agrees with what Mathman said here. I'd like to see a video example of a Lutz taking off with clear outside edge without counter-rotation, if that's possible, be it a long or a short setup.

 

[el henry]

Many ladies are really consistent with their triples nowadays, especially the younger generations. If no one pushes the envelop, and everyone only spend time to perfect the existing technique and the artistic side, it just won't be as exciting for the general public. Think the extreme case of ice dancing, where the casual olympic viewers probably don't see much differences between teams placed at the 4th place and 10th place.

I am afraid I disagree, I think the sport is bleeding viewers in the US of A because of the lack of well skated clean artistic programs that incorporate well skated clean artistic jumps.

The average viewer can’t even count rotations in the air, let alone get excited about them ETA: *I* can’t even count them, and I spend time on FS boards

But I have traveled far from the health factors that the OP started with....

 

[moriel]

I am afraid I disagree, I think the sport is bleeding viewers in the US of A because of the lack of well skated clean artistic programs that incorporate well skated clean artistic jumps.

The average viewer can’t even count rotations in the air, let alone get excited about them ETA: *I* can’t even count them, and I spend time on FS boards

But I have traveled far from the health factors that the OP started with....

Sport is bleeding viewers in the US because american ladies are not doing well.
But sport is gaining viewers in, for example, Russia and Japan, and I do not see why it should even cater to the american audience.

 

[el henry]

Sport is bleeding viewers in the US because american ladies are not doing well.
But sport is gaining viewers in, for example, Russia and Japan, and I do not see why it should even cater to the american audience.

I don’t think skating should appeal to any one country, I was replying to the OP who talked about viewers and quads. The US is the country I know best and therefore feel comfortable opining about that’s why I qualified it.

IMHO, quads for quads sake are not going to bring back American viewers; there is no “bethcha by golly wow” reaction to an extra revolution in the air simply because it’s an extra revolution in the air.

If senior American ladies used them to win, it would, yes, I agree there. Americans don’t care about juniors, and IMO never will. We’ve had junior men win with quads. Until they’re international seniors, only people who love the junior men like me are watching them or caring.

 

[Mathman]

Sport is bleeding viewers in the US because american ladies are not doing well.

I don't think that this is the main factor. Figure skating was in decline in the U.S. already by the year 2000 even though Michelle Kwan won world championships in 2000, 2001 and 2003, with Sasha Cohen already on the horizon.

I think the main factor is just cultural drift. National tastes in entertainment change. Figure skating just isn't what grabs American sports fans any more.

 

[gkelly]

I think not only gender but also age plays a part in it. Usually (not always i.e. Gogolev) when junior boys start attempting quads they are at least 16, whereas the first videos of Anna and Sasha came out when they were 13.

Just for the heck of it, some 14- and 15-year-old boys attempting quads in the mid-1990s:

Takeshi Honda 1995 Nebelhorn
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YMLplLVhlc&t=1m50s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YMLplLVhlc&t=3m42s

Zhengxin Guo 1996 Jr. Worlds

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_MgHNYf6yk&t=0m48s


Evgeny Plushenko 1997 Skate America
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84T-eyKFD58&t=0m43s


Also Timothy Goebel had begun working on his quad salchow at that age; I remember seeing him attempt it at a minor untelevised junior competition. He suffered a couple of serious injuries before he landed it successfully or competed internationally as a senior, by which time he was over 16.

From what I remember of fan discussions at the time, there wasn't as much concern over these boys destroying their bodies at young ages as expressions of preference for more mature, more well-rounded skating. But I couldn't attest to every fan's opinions. And aside from the Skate America example, not as many fans got to see the attempts.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

If senior American ladies used them to win, it would, yes, I agree there. Americans don’t care about juniors, and IMO never will. We’ve had junior men win with quads. Until they’re international seniors, only people who love the junior men like me are watching them or caring.

Maybe but even Chloe Kim who became one of the biggest stars of the last Olympics made pretty significant waves at only 16 for being one of the brightest stars at a very young age.

Great Story!!!
https://youtu.be/EIDpQV0DmSM

Even sky brown (only 10 yrs old) is getting similar and often bigger views than Sasha Trusova (at least on Instagram).

https://www.instagram.com/p/BreCS_YFQyd/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=1lp7nws1c28gf

99% of the athletes I follow on social media are fully grown adults but that 1% of relentless groms can be really inspiring too.

https://www.instagram.com/p/Br6Z6dag9iU/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=18x1i7cr8i8cw