Yagudin vs. Plushenko
- Thread starter demarinis5
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- Joined
- Jun 27, 2003
I think it was considered his first perfect quad in competition... but I can't remember... my tapes got eaten so I don't have it on hand to rewatch and hear the commentary - but I can remember Scott talking about it.
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- Feb 5, 2004
I'd have to disagree - wasn't his LP at SLC an American in paris? I thought he really pulled that off well artistically. He also had some pretty difficult transitions in that program including spread eagle into triple axel and low back shoot the duck into a triple loop off the top of my head.
Ant
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- Feb 5, 2004
Li i think is only realyl comparable with Goebel towards the end of his elligible career. Li might be able to rotate four times in the air, but he does often struggle with the triple axel and the higher tier triples to. If Li managed an 8 triple program with a quad combination, then maybe but i don't think that has ever happened has it?
Ant
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2004
I thought he'd had plenty of success years before SLC? I thought he tried the quad Lutz in nagano on the back of having success with the qaud toe in teh seasons leading up to nagano?
Ant
Yeah and surely the fact that Plushenko was three years younger than Yagudin (who was precocious himself) shouldn't be taken into consideration. In 1998 Plushenko was just 15 and it was a surprise that he medaled ( it was his first Worlds and he was just a substitute to Kulik ). When you are named Plushenko the age or injuries suddenly become unimportant.
Moreover the facts can always be presented differently: In 2000 and 2001 Plushenko lost only once to Yagudin. Correct?
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- Joined
- Feb 17, 2006
Well he says blessed not Lucky, but I think Paul would agree with you.
as for if I agree, not sure that I do... I only saw Mike's LP that year and it was fuzzy and black and white because we had poor reception... and my biased opinion was that it could have gone either way. I don't remember much save for Matt's fall on the 3axel...
but that's old news... there's been another olympic cycle...
Actually I agree with you on the long program at the 2002 Nationals, and that 3rd place in the long between Weiss and Savoie could have gone either way. Weiss got done standing up a quad, a two footed quad mind you, but a mostly completed quad, combined with 4 clean triples. Savoie had a fall and 7 clean triples, but his fall was on the 2nd triple axel, a key jump for him. Of course Weiss is a World medalist, and while Savoie's skating is nice Weiss obviously has an edge in certain things and would have gotten decent credit for even a two footed quad.
However my argument is based on the short program, not the long program. Weiss had a fall and another near fall in the short program and still finished 5th. He finished over alot of clean performance, Delmore was 1, there were some others by reasonable quality skaters. As I am sure you are familiar with short program scoring standards, and the costliness of mistakes in the short vs the long, this should never have happened. If he had not been held up in the short, he would have needed to beat Savoie by 2 placings or better in the long to overtake him, and that definitely did not happen. I would even argue Savoie should have been higher then 3rd in the short, Goebel fell on his footwork which killed his usualy very high first mark, and received some joke presentation scores to hold him up, and Eldredge had some insecurities to his performance, both were stilll placed joint first over Savoie.
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
His Liebestraum SP from last season was beautifully expressed, IMO.
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- Jun 27, 2003
temberboy - I'll have to see if I can dig up the short program then...
that being said, we're talking about an event judged by the 6.0 system, and in that system your skating history is everything. If you're a world medalist you have to really suck it up to not have a 'gift' or two sent your way
that being said, we're talking about an event judged by the 6.0 system, and in that system your skating history is everything. If you're a world medalist you have to really suck it up to not have a 'gift' or two sent your way
- Joined
- Nov 10, 2006
"Weiss got done standing up a quad, a two footed quad mind you..."
Did he ever do any other kind? (Not counting step-outs or falls.)
Did he ever do any other kind? (Not counting step-outs or falls.)
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
He would get lots of points in CoP. That's what kept Buttle with points even with falls. A two footed quad gets points!! In 6.0 it got 0.
Joe
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2006
He competed in CoP at 2006 Nationals...and ended up 4th.
Sure, two-footed Quads are worth a good amount of points, but he is inconsistent with the 3Axle and the combinations, so that makes his overall score less than brilliant.
~Z
Fun to relive the 2002 Oly's again. Temperboy and Mike articulated the case for Yagudin very well. As for me, all I can say is Alexei took my breath away nearly every time he competed. He was spell binding. No other skater has had such an impact on me. His programs and his interpretation were artistically and emotionally superior. If he were an actor, they would say he had great range. It always surprises me that not everyone shares my opinion on this topic!
...and honestly, I have nothing against Plushenko who is a great skater.
...and honestly, I have nothing against Plushenko who is a great skater.
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- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
True, Yag's LP at 2002 Oly's was conservative, but a lot of skaters have won with conservative performances at Oly's. As many others have laid out brilliantly, Yags did deserve his gold medal that night.
Personally, I've never found Plushy's skating that appealing. He does a lot of arm flailing to distract from what his feet are actually doing. I don't find him to be sexy. I've never cared for choreography (both in Oly eligible and pro) that was most jump-jump-jump.
I've ahd the pleasure of seeing both Paul and Alexei while they toured with SO I.
Personally, I've never found Plushy's skating that appealing. He does a lot of arm flailing to distract from what his feet are actually doing. I don't find him to be sexy. I've never cared for choreography (both in Oly eligible and pro) that was most jump-jump-jump.
I've ahd the pleasure of seeing both Paul and Alexei while they toured with SO I.
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2004
Conservative??
He landed a 4-3-2 combination, a solo quad, a triple axel and a full set of triples (with a bad near miss on the triple flip - but it was rotated with no hand of feet down).
Like someone else pointed out it was the most technically challenging LP completed in an Olympics up to that date.
Conservative for Arakawa's win in Torino I agree with - she left out out her biggest risk elements in order to skate clean to win. Yags landed his two biggest risk elements in the form of the quad combo and thequad. He landed this first triple axel and he knew he didn't need a second - he out jumped pluschenko who was his nearest rival in the LP, who wouldn't be able to win the medal even if he beat him in the LP. Conservative would have been to do enough to come in secnod ad still take the gold. He didn't he put down a technically difficult and superior program and won the LP as well as the medal - like a true champion!
Ant
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
He is no longer in competitions, yet you state about his inconsistent 3A and presumably ALL the combinations. You are speaking about the present in SOI?
his 4th place in 2006 Nats was a nail biter, if you recall. Yes he lost the decision, so what? I don't think that was the topic.
Joe
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2006
Agree! Alexei skated a strong, a clean and a smart LP. He didn't need the second triple axel. Smart was not conservative. He knew he could beat Plushenko and Geobel with this performance right after his LP. Probably the only person who didn't know whether he could win or not after his LP was Scott Hamilton who was the commentator for the men's event at that time. Sometimes, the commentators' comments really do the damage and mislead especially the general public.
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All of this talk reminds me of a time when the best in men's skating were actually pushing each other to greater things, something I don't see happening right now. In 2002 you actually needed two quads to win. I find it disappointing that some of today's competitions are won with programs that would have been technically competitive with programs from the late 80's-early 90's.
Yes, it's true that skaters are trying harder spins and footwork but it seems to be at the cost of individualism. Very few skaters today have their own distinct styles. That's not to say that they're not great skaters, just that CoP has put them in a predicament that allows them to be less creative. I groan whenever I see a skater set up a the end of their program for the Morozovian footwork sequence and they take an eternity to skate from one end of the rink to the other as they try to flail the arms one last time to achieve that level 4. Whatever happened to a good old serpentine footwork sequence? You only see those in Dance these days.
It was so nice to see Yagudin and Plushenko push each other technically. There was almost an element of trying to one-up the other, kind of an I can do it better attitude: You can do 4-3? I can do a 4-3-2. So can I and I can also do a 3Axel-3Salchow combo. Oh really? Well I can do a quad 4-3-3 and a 3Axel-3flip combo.
These days we're lucky to see two Quads in a competition. And oh boy, we get to see 3-2-2 combos on a regular basis! I'm sorry but that seems like technical regression to me. I think it's going to be a long while before we see two skaters push each other the way those two did.
Yes, it's true that skaters are trying harder spins and footwork but it seems to be at the cost of individualism. Very few skaters today have their own distinct styles. That's not to say that they're not great skaters, just that CoP has put them in a predicament that allows them to be less creative. I groan whenever I see a skater set up a the end of their program for the Morozovian footwork sequence and they take an eternity to skate from one end of the rink to the other as they try to flail the arms one last time to achieve that level 4. Whatever happened to a good old serpentine footwork sequence? You only see those in Dance these days.
It was so nice to see Yagudin and Plushenko push each other technically. There was almost an element of trying to one-up the other, kind of an I can do it better attitude: You can do 4-3? I can do a 4-3-2. So can I and I can also do a 3Axel-3Salchow combo. Oh really? Well I can do a quad 4-3-3 and a 3Axel-3flip combo.
These days we're lucky to see two Quads in a competition. And oh boy, we get to see 3-2-2 combos on a regular basis! I'm sorry but that seems like technical regression to me. I think it's going to be a long while before we see two skaters push each other the way those two did.
- Joined
- Dec 7, 2005
I agree with your post Mike79. Wasn't one of the reasons besides cheating that COP replaced 6.0 was to push the technical aspect of skating. I do see it with the ladies but not so much the men. jmo
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2006
I thought, in the beginning, one of the reasons to use CoP instead of 6.0 system was to give a balance on both technical and artistic side. In this way, it's supposed the CoP system would deemphasize the technical aspect of the skating, give marks on everything instead of focusing on only the quad. I could be wrong.
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