Dick Button on "new program vs. old program" | Golden Skate

Dick Button on "new program vs. old program"

jennylovskt

Medalist
Joined
Oct 20, 2006
While I am not disagreeing with Dick Button's thought on "twizzles", I could not agree with him on "new program vs. old program". In the "Push Dick's Button" segment at the Marshall's this season, Dick said that there was no advantage what so ever for the skaters doing old programs from the previous season. What are your thought?
 
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Personally, I don't mind seeing old programs over again. There are only a few competitions each year, so at worst we might see the same program 3 or 4 times. Each time it is a little different as the skaters and coaches tweak the choreography. Actually, it can be kind of interesting to see a program develop over a two-year run.

The real question, though, is whether the judges mark a program down for, "been there, seen that." I don't know for sure, but I have read that sometimes they do (?)

The only time that it really got out of hand, IMHO, was that string of pro-ams in 1998-99 where they did the identical competion with the same skaters doing the same programs, with the same results (Kwan, Yagudin), about ten times in a row, LOL. (But I never got tired of seeing Yaka Sato's Hatful of Stars. :) )
 
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I don't mind seeing an "old programme" if it is a good one - likely why I would see it / they would use it again. And as MM was saying about the interesting slight changes, sometimes not so slight.

I think the issue of judging might also be more difficult for the skater because the expectations are now higher of the programme and performance. "It better have improvements if they are still doing it" type of thought.
 
i don't mind it at all. I actually kind of like it. all the programs that have been reused have been good programs for that particullar skater, and if it is a good fit, why not. Example. Shen and Zhao askted the performnace of a lifetime in 2003 worlds using a program that they had used the year before. As sombody said, we really don't see these programs enough in one year to tire of them.
 
I think it depends... I didn't mind seeing Carmen from Evan because he didn't skate it for a full season last year...

likewise if Ben and Tanith were to use their FD longer, fine by me they didn't skate it all season... just teh last 3 competitions...

I also don't mind if a skater brings it back (ala Johnny Weir) when they don't have time to create something new halfway through a season and their newer program just isn't working out... I think there is an advantage in using an older and GREAT program that is more like an old friend than anything else... it *should* help a skater feel more confident... it didn't work for Johnny at the Olympics, but it could help another skater...


Considering Scott Hamilton's generation of (at least) US skaters used teh same cuts of music and just put different jump passes in and such, I don't see why Dick is ragging on it now. At least these programs are more interesting! LOL

Dick loves to nitpick, but I think he nitpicks the wrong things... if THAT is what gets his blood boiling and not some of the other things that go on in skating then pffft why bother?
 
I would love to see Lambiel``s Flamenco program again, especially, when he will be in top form !!!!! Mesmerizing. This program should win the OGM in Vancouver. I won`t be tired watching it until there.:rock:
 
I always feel if you can't come up with anything better then keep the program you have. If you have a masterpiece then keep it as long as you like.
 
I think the main complaint some people had was what Viktor Petrenko did in the late 80's-early 90's where he had the same program for THREE years while the other men kept changing theirs. He didn't even bother to change the choreography. He was basically out there just doing a job.

I agree with some that it's great to see a program grow over a two-year span. I think Jamie and David did this with Love Story (the only program where a judge had publicly stated that she marked them down for this being an old program -- thank you, Marina Sanaia of Russia).

I also want to see skaters revisit programs from their past, to see how their maturity would help them interpret the music better--one of these is Michelle's Salome. I want to see what she could do now that she's a bit older.
 
I think the main complaint some people had was what Viktor Petrenko did in the late 80's-early 90's where he had the same program for THREE years while the other men kept changing theirs.

Not all. E.g., Paul Wylie had used pretty much the same long program for three years also, but he had changed to a new one before 1992. And didn't Kurt Browning had the same one in 1989 and 1990?

Longer ago, some skaters would keep the same music (whole programs, or one or more personal favorite selections in programs with several contrasting pieces, as was typical in 1970s and 80s for instance) for even longer than that. Before there was television coverage of whole programs, or when even top skaters might be shown on television at most twice a year. Once the top skaters were being televised more frequently, there was more incentive to develop new programs. And more money available to amateur-now-"eligible" skaters to pay for music editing and choreography.

As a fan, I like to see skaters branch out in different directions and show different sides of themselves with different music choices. Of course, I'd rather watch a complex, detailed program many times, hopefully some of them skated especially well, than to see skaters change the music and costumes more often but pretty much do the same generic moves regardless, which is often the case. Just because a program is "new" doesn't necessarily make it less boring than an old one.

But I certainly don't think skaters should be required to change their music/choreography or penalized for not doing so at any predetermined interval.

Sometimes skaters dump a program that isn't working and get a new one mid-season, so the new program may not be trained and performed to its potential by the end of that season.

Sometimes skaters are injured or otherwise end up missing most of a season so few if any fans (and judges) get the chance to see the program, live or on TV.

In these cases, the skater may decide to get more use out of the program the following season as long as they spent the time learning it (and the money for the music editing, choreography, and costume). Or they may decide they're sick of it after practicing it for a year, even if hardly anyone got to see it, or it may have bad associations for them if connected to a bad year, and they want to move on. That should be their choice.

Some skaters happen to skate and place well at the events that get the most TV coverage, including short programs, or may happen to catch the interest of the producers and get shown despite mediocre placement, and others may be less fortunate in terms of media exposure. Some skaters get invited to and choose to participate in cheesefests or shows where it's appropriate to skate their competitive programs and the programs get televised even more often. This can also vary from one country to another, so that a certain program could be televised 6 times in one season in the US and never or only once in Japan, or vice versa, even if the skaters actually skated in the same number of events that year with comparable overall placements for the season.

Skaters at lower levels may keep the same programs for several years and never be televised or never qualify for events with large live audiences like Worlds, or Nationals in countries where skating is popular; if they finally do make a breakthrough their programs will be fresh to the fans even though the skaters have been using them for years.

Some skaters who are working their way up and don't have a lot of financial resources may decide to invest in one or two programs from well-known choreographers that can enhance their skating more than what their technical coach can devise, and then keep skating those programs until they get some competitive results that net them some money-making opportunities such as prize money and/or invitations to perform in shows.

Some skaters may keep each program for two years but alternate changing the short or the long each year.

Some skaters may go back to music they skated to years earlier and have always loved but change the programs as applicable to reflect new rules and new skills.

Some skaters just find one style they feel comfortable and stick to it, changing the music and costumes and choreography each year but with each remaining so similar that it may seem to viewers that they always skate the same program.

There are so many different reasons that skaters may use the same or similar programs for more than one year that there would be no really fair way to regulate it. The two-different-long-programs experiment at the Grand Prix Final a few years ago certainly wasn't very successful in treating audiences to more new, well-rehearsed programs from the top skaters.
 
I'm not sure they should be downgraded for reusing but, I don't understand how anyone in their right mind can say it doesn't give the skater an advantage. Of course it does. Whether or not the advantage is enough of one to warrant downgrading is the question but, IMHO it def. gives the skater an advantage.

I don't mind reusing if it's for special circumstances: like the Olympics or maybe the new program just isn't working but, to not even try a new program to me is too easy, lazy and playing it safe.
 
. And didn't Kurt Browning had the same one in 1989 and 1990?


you're close I believe it was 88 & 89 he used the Grand Canyon Suite - his rat. Quad was during that LP...

I don't think he used it in 90 - wasn't that the Romeo and Juliet year? He then had the Firebird Suite and then of course had his beloved Casablanca (my what a change one season can make!)
 
you're close I believe it was 88 & 89 he used the Grand Canyon Suite - his rat. Quad was during that LP...

I don't think he used it in 90 - wasn't that the Romeo and Juliet year?

He skated to Romeo and Juliet?
I'm thinking of the French program with the CanCan music -- I thought that was new for Paris Worlds in 89 and recycled for 1990. Was there R&J music in there too?

I was right:
http://www.skate.org/browning/faq.html#prog

He then had the Firebird Suite and then of course had his beloved Casablanca (my what a change one season can make!)

Yes, Casablanca was a step forward artistically, for Browning and for the sport as a whole IMO. And used for two seasons. :-)
 
Grand Canyon Suite was Kurt's LP for the 1986-87 season, and then again for the 1987-88 season.
Gaiete Parisienne/Can Can/Le Cid was Kurt's LP for the 1988-89 and 1989-90 seasons.
Sons of Italy was Kurt's 1990-91 LP
Firebird Suite was Kurt's 1991-92 LP.
Casablanca was Kurt's LP for the 1992-93, and 1993-94 seasons

Tequila was Kurt's 1987-88 SP
Cotton Club was Kurt's 1988-89 SP
Lone Bank Blues/Toast of the Town/Speedway was Kurt's 1989-90 SP
Hindu War God was Kurt's SP for the 1990-91 and 1991-92 seasons.
Bonzo's Montreux was Kurt's SP for the 1992-93 season
St. Louis Blues was Kurt's SP for the 1993-94 season

Sorry for the extensive breakdown, I had to go look it up on my webpage and on toepix.com so I just wrote it down here as I looked it up. Or, duh, I could have just followed gkelly's link, which had it all broken down. I'm an idiot.

So Kurt used Grand Canyon Suite, Gaiete Parisienne, and Casablanca for 2 seasons each. And he used Hindu War God for 2 seasons.
 
didn't he skate to Romeo and Juliet... or am I completely out of my mind????
 
I think "Like watching some of the old programs" and "Whether the old programs have the advantages or not" are totally different thing.

I like watching some of the old programs, too. Especially some of my favorite skaters' old programs. I wouldn't mind their using them for a couple of seasons. But what Dick Button said was there was no advantages for the skaters who use the old programs. I think there was definitely advantages for using an old program from the previous season. The skaters have more time to polish it, more competitions to experience it. Many of you have agreed that using two years of time to develop a program, skaters would make the program better. That is the advantage of keeping an old program. I would like Johnny to keep his this year's programs and develop them and make them better next year. :biggrin: Don't worry, guys, he won't!

How the judges would judge for the old programs? I don't know. All I know is that if the skaters train on the same programs more, they will definitely make the programs better. So they'll get better scores.
 
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Kurt skated to Romeo & Juliet as a pro - Masks and Morning Dance by Prokofiev, playing the character of Mercutio. But not until like 1995 or so? It was a self-choreographed program...
 
Okay, I am with Uncle Dick on this one. Though I do enjoy skaters revisiting an earlier program from time to time - like Brian Orsers' classic "The Story of My Life" (which he did as a gala performance after Canadians a few years ago and later as a show number) and Toller Cranston's masterpiece "Too Beautiful Too Last", it is more refreshing to see skaters in competition with a new program every season. Of course now skaters have a longer competitive season than in the early days - like Dick Button's time. It's kind of hard to say. I think it works for some skaters and for others not so well.
 
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