Caroline, where is Thais?

[gio]

I watched and rewatched her LP, but I can't find Thais in her interpretation. I can't blame her, but her staff, who choosed a music that is completely innapropriate for a 13 old girl. No 13 years old girl could understand the character of Thais, IMO. This isn't just a problem of Caroline. A lot of young girls choose difficult music and are not able to understand it.
Caroline is a beautiful skater with wrong music. Let's wait some years for a better Thais.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

gio- When I watch skaters doing a program based on a full length ballet or a whole evening opera, I cringe. Those stories can not be synopsed into 4 minutes with the dictates of CoP.

I think using such music can be achieved without the full length stories but with the character of the music as the skater feels it. Not easy for young minds. Their best bet is something frilly like what Lipinsky would use. Mao at Worlds used a Hungarian theme which made her look cute, and that's sellable.

Joe

 

[Mathman]

I don't think Caroline was trying to be Thais. I think she was just skating to some pretty music.

 

[gio]

I don't think Caroline was trying to be Thais. I think she was just skating to some pretty music.

I like when skaters try to be the character that the music describes. Even if they don't try to be the character IMO their feeling has to be in connection with the music. Caroline not only was not Thais, but IMO she didn't express the feeling of the music. From my point of view Caroline interpretation was not good. My conclusion is that the music itself (Thais character or not) was too difficult for her.

I hope that next year she will skate to an easier music ala Lipinski.

 

[gio]

gio- When I watch skaters doing a program based on a full length ballet or a whole evening opera, I cringe. Those stories can not be synopsed into 4 minutes with the dictates of CoP.

I agree Joe! And I have to add unfortunately, because with COP it has become all too difficult. IMO too much emphasis on elements.

One thing I would like too see are galas with a theme. For example Meditation from Thais on ice with the skaters doing the characters.

 

[Spun Silver]

Did anyone see Thais in S/Z's Meditation this season? I didn't, but it was still unbelievably beautiful.

 

[JonnyCoop]

I don't think Caroline was trying to be Thais. I think she was just skating to some pretty music.

And, IMHO, if the music is being used well choreographically and not merely being used as background noise while she skates about, there's really nothing wrong with that. What are the odds that the majority of audience members (or even the majority of the judges) know the story behind the music? I consider myself to be fairly astute in the classical music department (at least compared to most of the general population), but until this thread, tho I knew it was an opera, I never really thought much about the story behind it. And I don't necessarily feel that just because one chooses music with a "story behind it", one necessarily needs to go out there and TELL THE STORY. Suddenly I get this mental picture of judges reaching for a copy of "Opera and Ballet for Dummies" to get plot summaries, flipping madly through pages, to make sure that the choreography has some bearing on the plot -- which would also be open to interpretation.

I do feel that knowing the story behind the music can make for a better program -- in the hands of the right choreographer and skater. But not always and not necessarily. And based on the "You gotta be able to tell the story" premise, one could also argue that Sarah Hughes and Irina Slutskaya in the 00-01 season had no reason doing "Don Quijote" because they weren't men.......

 

[gio]

And, IMHO, if the music is being used well choreographically and not merely being used as background noise while she skates about, there's really nothing wrong with that. What are the odds that the majority of audience members (or even the majority of the judges) know the story behind the music? I consider myself to be fairly astute in the classical music department (at least compared to most of the general population), but until this thread, tho I knew it was an opera, I never really thought much about the story behind it. And I don't necessarily feel that just because one chooses music with a "story behind it", one necessarily needs to go out there and TELL THE STORY. Suddenly I get this mental picture of judges reaching for a copy of "Opera and Ballet for Dummies" to get plot summaries, flipping madly through pages, to make sure that the choreography has some bearing on the plot -- which would also be open to interpretation.

It's not just that she didn't try to do Thais. IMO, she didn't even understand the music. She skated without feeling the music and was unable to sell the program. And that is not just a Caroline problem, but a problem of most young skaters, who obviously don't have the maturity, because they are too young to skate on such difficult music. She didn't show any emotion.
Here all the people said that Caroline was the new Sasha Cohen. That she at the sole age of 13 was great at interpretation. I had high expectations. Now, that I've seen her program, I don't find her different from Mao, Kimmie and the others in the interpretation department. Just a normal 13 years old girl.
I think she has potential, but for now, this program wasn't an artistic masterpiece for sure. Fairly normal, because Kat Witt, Michelle Kwan and Lu Chen were just the same, if not worst, at her age.
A Marry Poppins or a Little Women program would have been better for her.

The same thing as Mao's interpretation of Carmen.

 

[gio]

I watched her Exhibition - Yo raise me up. The interpretation was much better than her LP. She showed more emotion and feeling to the music. The girl has potential, that's for sure.

 

[JonnyCoop]

It's not just that she didn't try to do Thais. IMO, she didn't even understand the music. She skated without feeling the music and was unable to sell the program. And that is not just a Caroline problem, but a problem of most young skaters, who obviously don't have the maturity, because they are too young to skate on such difficult music. She didn't show any emotion.

A Marry Poppins or a Little Women program would have been better for her.

OK, I will certainly agree with you on that point. Which is why junior events do nothing for me; it's all about jumps and cuteness and personality and very rarely a single even remotely interesting program is to be found.

However -- based on that criteria, there's only a certain amount of "age appropriate music", if you will, out there. You can't necessarily blame whoever selects the music for going to the stuff the "Big Girls" use as well. Plus, ever since Michelle Kwan got shafted at the 95 Worlds for supposedly looking "too young" (and the ensuing success she had the next season with a more mature image), I'm sure coaches and choreographers have wanted to at least attempt to make their skater look as mature as possible. Granted, Tara did have success by emphasizing her "little girl" image out there, but why she had success with it and why Michelle got shafted for it would be the subject of an entirely different post. (No one could ever accuse judges of any type of consistent mindset from one skater to another.). Anyway, the attempt to make a skater seem more mature than she is by musical selection might work or might fall totally flat, but you can't blame them for trying.

 

[SeaniBu]

(No one could ever accuse judges of any type of consistent mindset from one skater to another.)

:agree:

I think her posture and expression during was surprisingly mature, and I am open to musical interpretation being totally different than I might "expect." It would seem that if the "characterization" of Thais was presented she definitely would have not been able to "carry that weight" at 13, so the approach was to use the theme to show her strengths in posture and expression having the maturity but avoiding a correlation of a mature character - which would have been odd. JMO

 

[chuckm]

.

I do feel that knowing the story behind the music can make for a better program -- in the hands of the right choreographer and skater. But not always and not necessarily. And based on the "You gotta be able to tell the story" premise, one could also argue that Sarah Hughes and Irina Slutskaya in the 00-01 season had no reason doing "Don Quijote" because they weren't men.......

Actually, the portion of the "Don Quixote" ballet music most used is the "Kitri's Wedding" variation and it is entirely appropriate for a woman.

OTOH, did the ladies skating to "Turandot" realize that the "Nessun Dorma" music they all use is sung by the tenor Calaf?

But I think there is no need for skaters to depict a specific character---they just need to interpret the character of the music. Caroline skating to "Thais" as a lovely lyrical piece of music is fine. However, I do not think Mao captured the character of the music with "Czardas". She just seemed focused on keeping up with the music!

 

[Tonichelle]

I don't think Caroline was trying to be Thais. I think she was just skating to some pretty music.

agreed...

I also don't think that music should be interpretted in just ONE WAY all the time... yes some music is made just for ballet/movies/whatever in mind... but music is ever evolving and ever changing

what one person hears and sees with the music another person sees something entirely different...

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I agree Joe! And I have to add unfortunately, because with COP it has become all too difficult. IMO too much emphasis on elements.

One thing I would like too see are galas with a theme. For example Meditation from Thais on ice with the skaters doing the characters.

Great idea. I could consider:

A quintet of skaters doing the Quintet in Die Meistersinger.
A trio of skaters doing the Trio from Der Rosenkavalier.
A sextet of skaters doing the Sextet from Lucia de Lamamoor.

Nice thought but it won't happen.

Joe

 

[SeaniBu]

Nice thought but it won't happen.

There you go being all positive again J/K - hope that is OK to kid with you.

I agree with both sentiments. It would be nice and the ideas suggested are correctly assumed as not going to happen:agree: :disapp:

But it might be likely a popular theme of say a movie or "music by..." something that tells a story as the whole event, each skate routine being a part of the story.

I think Thais would be good too - although what part Caroline could play??? Maybe act 3 scene 1 being left at the convent (is that right????) For some reason I am thinking Carolina Kostner for Act 2 Scene 3 - burring down her house as she leaves - maybe the name association???

Good Idea I agree and wanted to comment so the idea might have a better chance being noticed and POSSIBLY have a better chance at fruition.

 

[blue dog]

Great idea. I could consider:

A quintet of skaters doing the Quintet in Die Meistersinger.
A trio of skaters doing the Trio from Der Rosenkavalier.
A sextet of skaters doing the Sextet from Lucia de Lamamoor.

Nice thought but it won't happen.

Joe

But none of the following!!!!

Tosca Trio
Quartet for Swan Lake

 

[saltypig]

I might be completely out in left field but my guess is that a lot of figure skating fans don't have a clue who Thais is (including myself ).

A piece of music can be interpreted in different ways by different skaters (if they interpret the music at all). I think some of them will just grab a piece that they like and plan out at which point of the music they will perform certain skating elements.

 

[SeaniBu]

I might be completely out in left field but my guess is that a lot of figure skating fans don't have a clue who Thais is (including myself ).

I know what you are saying but just so anyone knows Thais is a converted (at stories end) sinful woman in Egypt during the time of Alexander. I believe based on a true story"ish"???

 

[Mathman]

It's not just that she didn't try to do Thais. IMO, she didn't even understand the music. She skated without feeling the music and was unable to sell the program. And that is not just a Caroline problem, but a problem of most young skaters, who obviously don't have the maturity, because they are too young to skate on such difficult music....A Mary Poppins or a Little Women program would have been better for her.

Heaven forfend!!

Do you really want to see Caroline Zhang (or anyone else) prancing about to Chim-chiminy Chim-chiminy Chim-chim-chiree?! (It won an Oscar for the best song of 1964 ) To make sure she presented the character of the music she could use a chimney sweep's broom for a prop.

Although...now that I think of it, Supercalifragilisticexpealidocious has untapped choreographic possibilities...

"Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious!
Look at me, I'm Caroline Z, I'm really quite precocious!"

I don't see anything wrong with introducing youngsters to good music. (Or in the case of Massenet, to so-so music -- Thais is not really much of an opera and has only one good song in it.) Obviously at 13 Caroline Zhang is not preparing to write her doctoral dissertation in musicology, but I don't see any reason to tell her that she can't skate to good music until she does. Maybe she will revisit Meditation (that skating war horse) at 23, and we can see what she has learned in the meantime. (Most likely what she will have learned is a triple flip/triple loop.)

BTW, I notice that skaters almost never choose great music. We rarely hear Beethoven or Mozart or Bach (and we never hear the true master, Haydn :yes: ). I think this is because it would be impossible for the skater to skate up to the music, so the skating would just be a distraction.

I think when people rave about Caroline's presentation skills they mean that she moves gracefully and achieves pretty positions. To tell the truth, I rarely see more even from mature and experienced artists.

 

[SeaniBu]

Do you really want to see Caroline Zhang (or anyone else) prancing about to Chim-chiminy Chim-chiminy Chim-chim-cheree?!

No one can live up to Dick Van Dike for that IMO.

BTW, I notice that skaters almost never choose great music. We rarely hear Beethoven or Mozart or Bach (and we never hear the true master, Haydn :yes: ). I think this is because it would be impossible for the skater to skate up to the music, so the skating would just be a distraction.

Interesting thought. I wonder, I think your dissertation on the subject is quite veracious.:agree: Must be why so few Jazz pieces are chosen.????

I think when people rave about Caroline's presentation skills they mean that she moves gracefully and achieves pretty positions. To tell the truth, I rarely see more even from mature and experienced artists.

ITA. "Ahead of the curve."