VA Tech Shooting...

[blue dog]

What worries me, Toni, is this will become fodder for people to mistreat the mentally ill (I even dislike using that term). People with a non-physical handicap aren't killers or violent people--Cho was an anomaly.

As an Asian man, the Asian jokes pertaining this issue are starting to get old.

OK, I need to get off my soapbox and really think that this brought everything back into perspective. I hope the families find peace and privacy during this time when the world will not only be watching their every move, but trying to drudge up every story...

 

[Spun Silver]

MSNBC's reporters and 'experts' are now calling for stricter laws that enforce drugs on the mentally ill, but I hope it never goes that far... consider it used to be practiced that way there was a lot of mistreatment of the laws and a lot of 'sane' people were treated less than humanely.

It's true, but hasn't the pendulum swung too far in the other direction? I mean, if folks are a danger to others and not competent to judge right and wrong, don't they as well as we need better protections? I mean, this guy killed himself too.

Once I tried to help a young woman who was strung out on drugs and kept running out onto a big NYC avenue and lying down in the traffic. Luckily the traffic was not too heavy and stopped. I got her to get up and go to the sidewalk, but then she'd do it again. Folks called 411. Eventually an ambulance came, talked to her... and drove away! They said that if she didn't want help, they couldn't make her take it.

Sorry - that's just not good enough.

 

[iluvtodd]

I am shocked--disgusted even
After Monday, they plan to do this?!

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/04/18/national/main2699800.shtml

This is truly pathetic, insensitive, and disgusting.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

toni - By all means keep the purchases of guns moving right along. Which school do you think will be next? With only a few deaths, it isn't worth changing the gun laws.

Joe

 

[Ptichka]

toni - By all means keep the purchases of guns moving right along. Which school do you think will be next? With only a few deaths, it isn't worth changing the gun laws.

Joe,

Your line of argument can lead to very different conclusions, ones you won't be agreeing with. This that have been suggested include - locking the mentally ill away/ forcing them on drugs; locking up people with disturbing writing - btw, in this regard that's what's often done to high school students, and I don't think extending this is the answer to anything; increasing "security" at campuses; etc. The truth is that Germany, with rather strict gun laws has had mass shootings, whereas in Switzerland almost every male is required by law to own a firearm and the country sees hardly any gun crime. So, while I do favor strict gun control, I am afraid that is not the answer.

This is truly pathetic, insensitive, and disgusting.

+1

MSNBC's reporters and 'experts' are now calling for stricter laws that enforce drugs on the mentally ill, but I hope it never goes that far... consider it used to be practiced that way there was a lot of mistreatment of the laws and a lot of 'sane' people were treated less than humanely.

+1
Even without the second statement. Psychology is not science, and this is plain scary.

And to tell you the truth, Goya and Kafka's work IMO would not have been a big loss to society if they weren't allowed. We might suffer as a society without that "freedom", but I don't think the works that could be found "questionable" would hurt if they never were publicized either.

Look, I grew up in the Soviet Union. The country of censorship. They said that the literature they censored would be too dangerous for the public, so they were just protecting us from it. Oh, and they did like to lock people away for being supposedly "crazy". Perhaps this background makes me a little more sensitive to the whole freedom issue than most.

 

[SeaniBu]

Look, I grew up in the Soviet Union. The country of censorship.

Judging by the first word of this sentence I am wondering if this was read? Thanks for not reading?

And before anyone goes jumping on my case please be aware of what I said I feel and what might be as well - in BF. Thanks.

I don't think it is right, but I am not sure I see the harm in "playing it safe" and keeping the "disturbed mind" ......

I told everyone, so I don't mean to say I agree with censorship. I am much on the ideology of someone like John Denver.

My point is - and this is only pertaining to violent actions GRAPHICALLY depicted in story or "pictured" - would society really suffer if THE ONE THING, again, THIS ONE ASPECT OF VIOLENCE AND THE FREEDOM TO DEPECT ONLY was censored. There is a big difference between the communist regime and a society deciding violence should be censored. This is where people often say one type of censorship is everything being censored. That is one of those over exaggerative convoluting factors that always seem to distort the truth of the original meaning and no gain is had due to preposterous association to many things when only ONE is in question.

expl.
I do not believe in music that explicitly talks about violent actions is OK. Phrases / lyrics like "Smack my b*** up" or "walked in and plugged the place, they should have known I was strapp'n" are trash and I have no idea why that type of freedom is taken advantage of and the perpetuation of violence is allowed in music / art in some cases.

But I don't think that "bad" words or "raise up against the establishment" are to be censored at all as long as they are not glorifying the actions of violence. Now if you think one form of censorship equates to the same thing that was happening in Russia, I would have to say that is whacked out way of looking at things and you had to lump a lot of other aspects of censorship in with the ONE I was simply stating "what harm would come from censoring VIOLENCE? Just violence."

The gun control thing, I am in total agreeance with the common theme here. The real issue is not the guns, it is the actions with them. The points being addressed like how people see something of concern and report it and then the "authorities do NOTHING about it until it is to late" is the real problem. Or how some people think "I am so smart and can tell if my kid / student really does need help.." are the things that need to be addressed. Not gun control. I don't feel gun control even has anything to do with this topic OTHER THAN how someone with "mental issues" is still able to legally purchase a gun. He may have gotten it anyway, but that comes back to society seeing "signs" and not doing anything about it because as soon as it is addressed people scream "censorship, this is just like the Communists" and it is overlooked to advert issue of radicals that clump all other "freedoms of the people" in with something that is only meant to address violence.

 

[Ptichka]

Ah, where do I even begin. Censoring violence would really have to start with the Bible. I mean, come on - G-d telling people to kill whole cities?! That's kind of violent - don't you think? So yes, on the issue of censorship I am very much an "all or nothing" gal. Put whatever disclaimers you want on it, keep it away from public airways if you have to - but forbid it? Personally, I don't believe it it...

 

[Tonichelle]

Cho had a court hearing that got him put into a 72 hour clinic thing (yes that is the technical term lol) - does VA not do background checks on gun purchasers - I know Alaska had to start doing that after a federal ruling IIRC.

or do mental issues not get put on background checks?

 

[SeaniBu]

Ah, where do I even begin. Censoring violence would really have to start with the Bible. I mean, come on - G-d telling people to kill whole cities?! That's kind of violent - don't you think? So yes, on the issue of censorship I am very much an "all or nothing" gal. Put whatever disclaimers you want on it, keep it away from public airways if you have to - but forbid it? Personally, I don't believe it it...

Again the perpetuation and graphic "vision," a painting with arms being eating is not necessary, nor the same thing as a "history lesson." Clumping anything that has violence is not the same thing as forms of depiction of said violence. This is a connect everything into one category issue. To talk about the atrocities of war or the like is not the same thing as " I am a gansta strap'n and I started cap'n." This also might be one of the psychological implications here. The connection with biblical history and saying it is the same as murder rampages or art that is unnecessarily graphic, if the freaks hear that God sending the message to kill in ancient times is the same as murders in todays society, well they will then get the impression that it is all the same. There is a difference in the way societies are today compared to 2000 years ago, don't you think? If not then it is still the wild west and we should still kill for horse theft etc... ????

"Ah, where do I even begin" is saying how many connections can I make with this one isolated directed point to othewr things that are not in question? Hence convoluting the facts that the only real topic addressed is the perpetuation and glorification in TODAYS society. I can make a connection to hockey and figure skating, but that does not mean they are at all the same thing. How about trying to connect the fire bombing on Japan in 1942 with the lady who just tried to burn her family in their sleep by setting her house on fire. There is a difference and far fetched connections do not support the case. I would say what those disrespectful jerks that are protesting during the students funerals are in the same form of silly mindset connection to to points that are different yet only share a slight commonality. IOW quite the stretch. How about this, when a person says "you called me stupid" when someone might only be referring to one act of stupidity. That doesn't mean that they thought they WERE stupid, just that ONE thing they did was.

As for having a 72 hour psychological evaluation and then still being able to buy a gun from a vender that does background check is exactly what needs to be addressed the most. The stupid "mistakes" made prior that allowed him to easily possess a fire arm. Or easily blend in with the crowd and continue a shooting spree hours after the first. Focus on the "tool" is the completely wrong direction, who is getting, using, influenced use of, etc.... is the real issue. Not convoluting the two as the same.

Same can be said for the tool of censorship, it is not the "tool of censorship" itself, but how it is used.:yes:

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Joe,

Your line of argument can lead to very different conclusions, ones you won't be agreeing with. This that have been suggested include - locking the mentally ill away/ forcing them on drugs; locking up people with disturbing writing - btw, in this regard that's what's often done to high school students, and I don't think extending this is the answer to anything; increasing "security" at campuses; etc. The truth is that Germany, with rather strict gun laws has had mass shootings, whereas in Switzerland almost every male is required by law to own a firearm and the country sees hardly any gun crime. So, while I do favor strict gun control, I am afraid that is not the answer.

Have to agree with you, Ptichka. It's just that I can't stand the 'Gun Lobby' in this country. By all means protect the manufacturer. :scratch: Americans are a people who believe in killing and justify it with their religion. However, they do not believe in abortion and associate that with their religion. Problem is not every religion is the same. But capitalism is the same. When that airplane crashed with 274 people in Queens. Most people were saddened. However some had to add 'and we lost a great plane, too.'

Joe

 

[iloveaxel]

I am wondering how many more massacres are going to happen before Americans finally give up on the gun culture.

Gun should be banned, period.

 

[SeaniBu]

Gun should be banned, period.

Then only the "outlaws" will have guns. Nice plan, let's try that again.

 

[Tonichelle]

then families like mine would starve... yeah... that sounds like a good idea.

 

[blue dog]

I am wondering how many more massacres are going to happen before Americans finally give up on the gun culture.

Gun should be banned, period.

OK--we've had the right to bear arms since we became a country, and we've really only had this problem in the last eight years--and it's due, perhaps, to the willingness of some gun stores to sell guns. It's capitalism, not the right to bear arms that is the closest thing to blame (I say closest, because I doubt there is something we can blame for what happened in VA).

Yes, while the right to bear arms was put into our constitution because of the British occupation, as another poster pointed out, in another country where guns are readily accessible, there are almost no problems. Perhaps it has less to do with the laws of banning such things, but instead the safety precautions such countries/societies have.

If anyone or anything can be blamed for this tragedy, that person is already gone. We cannot blame VA Tech for not responding sooner, because no school can ever really expect this; we didn't expect 9-11, and as much as I disapprove of how the government has handled everything since then, we're pretty much on a trial-and-error basis. We didn't have anything of that magnitude before that, just as we haven't had anything of this magnitude before this (Columbine and Santee came close, but nothing close to this). Imagine being a first-time parent; everything is trial and error.

There are no easy solutions that will STOP the next person from doing this. In fact, I think there are no solutions. Clamping down on the 'mentally ill' will create more discrimination, and perhaps, more people will be added to that list (remember in the 1970's the APA itself recognised homosexuality as a mental illness). Giving up guns isn't just an infringement of constitutional rights, but that seems hardly like the best solution, more like a quick fix to the problem that'll eventually create a black market (or worsen the current black market for) for guns.

Not to mention, the same amount of people die each day in Iraq--multiples of 30 die each day in Africa.

I pay tribute to those who died on Monday--let's honor them by solving the pressing problems that we still have today.

 

[Tonichelle]

Blue Dog, you're my hero... and I mean that....

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Then only the "outlaws" will have guns. Nice plan, let's try that again.

If law enforcement is working, it is easier to nab a criminal with intent to kill then it is to control the killings by the general population.

I foresee more school yard killings in the future.

Joe

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Blue Dog - We've had the problem since we started slaughtering Native Americans to get to the West. And we called it Manifest Destiny which really meant, God wants us to kill these savages who should not have this land.

Joe

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

There are no easy solutions that will STOP the next person from doing this. In fact, I think there are no solutions. Clamping down on the 'mentally ill' will create more discrimination, and perhaps, more people will be added to that list (remember in the 1970's the APA itself recognised homosexuality as a mental illness). Giving up guns isn't just an infringement of constitutional rights, but that seems hardly like the best solution, more like a quick fix to the problem that'll eventually create a black market (or worsen the current black market for) for guns.

You seem to agree that the Americans have no control of school yard killings. Am I correct?

How many school yard killings have happened in other countries?

Why is America different?

Joe

 

[SeaniBu]

If law enforcement is working,

That's the biggest issue IMO. Most are lazy and the Police work for revenue too.

The thing we are seeing is there are signs in most cases, not doing anything when they are seen.....

On the "blame" that was brought up, not to sure there are more then a couple that are still in that mindset of "blame." When reflecting and note certain aspects it is for learning.

As for the "wouldn't have helped" comment. That is speculation, and speculation is the problem. Things didn't happen that could have and we will not know if they worked until it happens again, which it will. And the number of people that think the "lock down" at 7:15 would have worked or possibly helped even a little are GREATLY out numbering those who think it wouldn't have help or even caused an escalation. Not the best track record in the world, but I do know some law enforcement here in Boulder who KNOW what a lock down means, how it has help in other situations and "not knowing" just thinking and basing the safety of others on "thinki" has caused problems for them in the past and doing everything they can and spreading information immediately is the best way to get immediate results. I am not forgetting what happened at Platte Canyon High School and what didn't happen to more girls because of immediate action.

The "no one can ever expect this" - are you kidding me? They better, it has happened prior and that is what they are there for. And as far as 9-11, it is fairly apparent that we did expect that but it was not publicized.

The bear arms comment in the same post, same issue that keeps coming up, The right to bear arms WHEN....!!!!!!
Hunting? For food with a hand gun???? I can kinda see if you are hunting in bear territory but also know of someone that killed an attacking bear with a rifle at close range because they knew how to use a gun - back in 1979. No automatic weapons were on the hunt and they came back with food and their lives.
Still confirming it is not the tool but who and how it is used.

Speaking of learning - http://polyticks.com/polyticks/beararms/armsteas.htm

 

[Piel]

WHY do we need guns? Unless you are in law enforcement or one of the few people that have no other way to feed themselves other than hunt. This is an item that no one HAS to have. Get rid of all of them except in the above mentioned circumstances. Even police officers need to be monitored more closely than they are. If they are not available then they can't get into the wrong hands. There are no recreational hunters that can't pick up another hobby. Not only would you avoid nutcases getting their hands on them it would eliminate all of the tragic cases of accidental shootings.

Joe ITA the idea of manifest destiny in many forms and names has caused so much violence and hatred througout the world.